Class Politics One design, really?

pez

Member
I was about to hijack the intensity sail thread with this but decided not to. I Just want to put some thoughts out there in terms of wether or not the laser is really a one-design class.

The vang, outhaul and cunnigham upgrades became legal in 2001. Having finally grokked the fullness of same, I have to say that I feel the ILCA's implementation of these upgrades goes against the concept of one-design.

As I see it, there's two designs. The Laser and the Laser Pro. The ILCA has made two very large mistakes that were either within or without their control... First, the 2001 class-legal upgrades should be required. Second, ILCA should have taken a better approach to making these upgrades more affordable.

$435 makes a Laser into a Laser Pro. Maybe the right thing to do is to call me a cheap bas****, and that's fine... you're entitled to your opinion, especially if it's one I share. But a 15-20% price difference in one boat to another doesnt suggest one-design.

A good sailor in a pre-2001 boat will be beaten by an average sailor in a post 2001 boat. That's not what my understanding of the one design concept...

food for thought...
 
pez said:
I was about to hijack the intensity sail thread with this but decided not to. I Just want to put some thoughts out there in terms of wether or not the laser is really a one-design class.

The vang, outhaul and cunnigham upgrades became legal in 2001. Having finally grokked the fullness of same, I have to say that I feel the ILCA's implementation of these upgrades goes against the concept of one-design.

As I see it, there's two designs. The Laser and the Laser Pro. The ILCA has made two very large mistakes that were either within or without their control... First, the 2001 class-legal upgrades should be required. Second, ILCA should have taken a better approach to making these upgrades more affordable.

Maybe you can explain why you feel the upgrades go against the concept of one design. The Laser is one of, if not the most tightly controlled class I'm familar with.

One of the reasons for allowing the upgrades was due to numerous requests by the sailors themselves who wanted to better functioning controls, not to give anyone an advantage, but to make it easier (ie require less strength and/or technique) and fairer for everyone to make the adjustments.

Can you explain why you feel the upgrades should be required ? That seems to go against your complaint below about the cost. Why force the upgrade on someone who doesn't want to spend it and doesn't feel they are at a disadvantage if they don't upgrade ?

pez said:
$435 makes a Laser into a Laser Pro. Maybe the right thing to do is to call me a cheap bas****, and that's fine... you're entitled to your opinion, especially if it's one I share. But a 15-20% price difference in one boat to another doesnt suggest one-design.

The cost difference in the new boats (std vs pro) is about 4%. Your figures are for an converting an old into a new boat. You can do it for less then the 435 you mention, you just need to get a little creative.

pez said:
A good sailor in a pre-2001 boat will be beaten by an average sailor in a post 2001 boat. That's not what my understanding of the one design concept...

I completely disagree with this statement. IMHO you are buying into the marketing of the upgrade and convincing yourself simply changing the controls will turn you from an average sailor into a good sailor. I have seen this dis-proven time and time again. The controls don't make you any smarter, don't turn you into a better hiker and don't make you any faster. They simply make adjusting the sail easier.
 
pez said:
A good sailor in a pre-2001 boat will be beaten by an average sailor in a post 2001 boat. That's not what my understanding of the one design concept...

Pez, I haven't seen that to be true at all. There are a number of good sailors at my club with the old rigging. An average sailor can't touch them. It's not the rigging--it's years of racing experience, and they win in a number of classes of boats. This past summer one winning youth sailor said he could compete in any Laser as long as it was dry inside.

It's also true that you can get creative with the rigging and create some upgrades with off the shelf parts without breaking the bank.
 
Better functioning controls are fine, we dont want to keep the boat to a construction and rigging standard that was only achievable back in the 1970s. I would like to see more changes to bring the class into the 21st century, ... like making the hull lighter.
What bugs me is being forced to buy sub standard sails that have a very limited life. Buy a pro vang system and you have a quality item that lasts forever
 
49208... I probabaly wasnt clear... I dont feel that the upgrades go against the concept of one-design. I feel that the governing body (ILCA?) that decides such things went against the concept of one design by not making the parts standard on new boats. Similar to wooden dagger boards and rudders... the rules state that such are not legal unless they are original equipment to the boat. Such a rule supports the concept of one-design by attrition. It's not the upgrades themselves, it's the way they were introduced to the class. this speaks to 168664's point that we shouldnt keep the 1970's rigging system

Merrily, I dont claim to have the experience to know for certain, and maybe the right phrase to use was that the controls make a below-average sailor competitive with an average sailor? Hmm... as long as the inside is dry... that's important? :)
 
pez said:
Merrily, I dont claim to have the experience to know for certain, and maybe the right phrase to use was that the controls make a below-average sailor competitive with an average sailor?
The thought that the new vang was required to sail at the highest level was pretty surely killed when Robert Scheidt won the Laser Gold medal in 2004 with an upgraded vang using the "old style" blocks: Robert after the Final race (kind of hard to see, but there's no shiny chrome fitting on the mast tang!)

I'm not sure of the effect on a more average sailor, but I do know I like mine and I'd hate to go back to sailing without it!

Cheers,

Geoff S.
 
I agree that all new boats should be equipped with the new rigging standard. No options for old rigging. Otherwise you should still be able to get the mahogany blades and an Elvestrom or Harstick, (I don't think either are still in business) sails.
 
Some of the old wood blades were proven to be faster (thicker section and stiffer). It was also hard to get them consistantly the same shape. That was reason enough to do away with them and make the class more one design...People also complained about the maintainence on them.

I would guess the class is slowly phasing out selling the new boats with the old rigging. Believe it or not, there are still people who buy a Laser just to have sitting on the beach at their house for fun sailing - why should they have to spend more to get the the new rigging ? The old rigging doesn't make you any faster then the new rigging so what's the big deal in offering it ?
 
49208 said:
The old rigging doesn't make you any faster then the new rigging so what's the big deal in offering it ?

The new rigging does make you faster than the old rigging hence a lot of people had to spend money on upgrades....or at very least they had to add blocks to the vang. It could be argued that to be truly 1 design no change should have occurred with the possible exception of the glass foils that I believe were brought about to make mass production possible....Saying that NO change should be allowed I believe is a bit short sighted.
 
I agree with 76489. To the average weekend warrior the upgrades do make us faster. We can depower faster, power back up faster, get better leach tension w/out having to luff the sail, the smaller person can now actually manage sail shape in a breeze, this makes them faster than with the old style rigging. It does not improve your ability to go in the correct direction, but if you're going the wrong way you can get there faster with the better/easier sail controls.

I also believe we can and should change from time to time. Like with the blades, the new rigging, the new boom sleeve, (which will get approved) and even sail manufacturers over time. Honestly, how many people buy a NEW Laser to day sail off the beach? My money is that those who do don't know what they are buying and after their first sail in breeze over 12 knots that boat will be on the market and purchased by someone who will race it anyway.
 
I'll admit I thought the new controls made the boat faster when I first starting sailing with them, but I was confusing easier with faster. If anything, what I have since learned is that the gains made by staying hiked out far outweigh the ability to change a control especially when the velocity is changing fairly often. In those conditions what I have changed to is to set the boat up for the lulls and hike harder in the puffs as opposed to constantly making gear changes. I learned this from someone who used the exact same style/technique to sail right past me when I was making adjustments... His writeup is here: http://cedarpointyc.org/uploads/2005_Laser_fall_week7_report.html
 
Thats a good writeup... I started this thread just to gauge some opinions... it seems consensus might be difficult to come by... no surprise there...

Laser76489, I agree with you that NO change is short sighted, but said changes need to be fully adopted... at the crux of my argument is that I feel it's not in the interest of the class for vanguard to offer a one-design boat with two different control systems.

In effect they are saying that every laser is the same, except where they are different. It's a one design class... now which design do you prefer?

<shrug>
 
one thing that ur failing to consider is personal preference. some ppl actually prefer the old system, its what they are used to. If they feel they can be competetive w/ the old system they shouldnt have to change.
 
Rob B said:
I agree with 76489. To the average weekend warrior the upgrades do make us faster. We can depower faster, power back up faster, get better leach tension w/out having to luff the sail, the smaller person can now actually manage sail shape in a breeze, this makes them faster than with the old style rigging. It does not improve your ability to go in the correct direction, but if you're going the wrong way you can get there faster with the better/easier sail controls.
The phrase "It makes us faster" seems to be being thrown around alot. but the fact is is that it only makes us faster if we know how to use them. It can have the oppisite effect if we don't know how to use them.

I wonder when SFbayLaser and the Gouv are goin to chime in on this one.:p
 
The ILCA are on a hiding to nothing with these types of issues. If they try to enforce a requirement for builder supplied fittings, they get criticised (see the thread about the proposed new clew sleeve). If they try to give sailors a choice in how they set up the control lines on the boat, they get criticised (like in this thread).

They are constantly trying to walk the tightrope. On one hand, they are trying to make improvements to keep the boat modern and relevant and interesting. On the other hand they are trying to protect existing boats from obsolescence. I'm actually pretty impressed with the job they are doing. They are sailors too - I'm sure they would love to design a completely new rig, or approve the new rudder that was designed and tested by them a few years ago, and apparently greatly improved the boat's handling. But they generally find a pretty good line between caution and progressiveness.
 
Sorry I'm late in replying to this one, been too busy studying!

IMHO, if you were really fast before, you'll still be really fast now. If you had developed the skill set required for supervanging, adjusting the outhaul, and trimming the cunningham on the move before, then upgrading will make basically no difference to your performance.

On the other hand, if you were struggling before, then upgrading MIGHT help. It wont turn a poor sailor into a pro tho!

After all, they say that 90% of a boats performance is down to the nut on the end of the tiller! :)
 
Interesting comments!
One of the issues here is that the upgrade costs a lot of $. My question: is this is the cost one pays for one design, or does it stop competition between different manufacturers?
My point is: by only allowing the official laser vangs, the two manufacturers are making tons of money, without ever having to worry about their market share.
Would it hurt the one design concept to let other manufacturers design a vang? Could one produce a vang that would make someone faster?
Laser sails need strict regulations, but hardware such as vangs as well?

GEORG
 
The bottom line with the pro rigging is that it makes the boat easier for a per son with an all around sailing background to enjoy the boat. (such as myself) When I first experienced laser sailing in 1990, I discovered quickly that it took a lot of practice to stay current in the boat. My college sailing took me away from the laser, but now the changes in the class really help in changing gears and make sailing this boat much more appealling.

The only real issue left with this class is how unreasonable the cost of being competitive, as stated earlier with the inferiority of the class sail and the cost of a fifteen year old boat still 75% of what it cost new. people say old boats are still competitive, but wear and tear ought to have more of an effect on the boats residual value than it does. The effective lifetime of the sail issue is pandemic to all one design fleets, but fifteen hundred bucks for a 1978 boat is a little unreasonable, considering what it costs to install a maststep kit and replace the foam. Two years ago I bought a 1979 santana 20 for 1500 bucks with solid sails and a trailer. Granted that was an excellent deal, but I think that its ridiculus to pay the same money for a similar vintage laser with a 3 year old sail, a dolly, and no road trailer. Come on guys, it only weighs 138 lbs. where's the value?
 
mlemieux1978,
This is quite a different issue: costs of used boats are not controlled by anyone. Lasers indeed keep their value. What does that mean? No one would pay these amounts if these boats are crappy and hence the prices would be much lower. In other words: the prices are high, because the quality is good. A 78 boat with all the upgrades and a dolly is certainly going for 1500. You can also find a beater for 500 from that year. How are these prices regulated? By the market mechanism of supply and demand that Adam Smith described as the invisible hand.

Georg
 
Strict one-design? No. Will a good sailor in a boat with old-style rigging beat a mediocre sailor with new-style rigging, yes. The controls don't make the boat faster.

Here's how I view it - the new rigging opens the class to more sailors. Instead of being stuck with the same one-size-fits-all controls, each sailor has a certain amount of lattitude to design controls to fit their needs and sailing style. They will enjoy the boat more and keep sailing it. Stuff that really affect the speed of the boat - hull shape, blade, sails - are still strictly one-design.

Yes, there is a monetary cost associated with the upgrades. However, there is also a time commitment required to find a control system which works best for you. That is certainly time much better spent then trying to figure out how to get more purchase out of the vang using only an extra $0.23 worth of line. Quite frankly, the cost of the upgrades is neglibile compared to what I spend on entry fees, hotels, gas and food over the course of several years.
 
49208 said:
... not to give anyone an advantage, but to make it easier ...


To me this means giving some people an advantage and thus a performance improvement. Pre the changes you had to be fit, strong and motivated (to some degree anyway). After the changes, those not as fit, strong nor motivated were able to spend a bit more money and get better performance and do better.


For example, pre changes a long race in a decent wind. The fitter stronger more motivated people keep going and keep their sails adjusted decently and thus are going faster. After the changes, those fit strong and motivated people are now facing greater competition as others are not keeping their sails correctly adjusted, not because they are fit strong, etc. but because they have paid for the upgrade.


Ian​
 
Deimos said:



Pre the changes you had to be fit, strong and motivated (to some degree anyway). After the changes, those not as fit, strong nor motivated were able to spend a bit more money and get better performance and do better.

Again, I put forth my argument of drawing more people into the class. Do we want to be a class of elitist Olympic athletes, or a class of weekend warrirors - some of whom have beer guts, jobs and families, only giving them a couple hours on the weekend to sail and no time for the gym.
 
If I'm reading what you are saying correctly, prior to the rigging upgrade, the stronger, more fit people had an advantage over those less fit and strong when it came to adjusting the controls.

I agree. Next, the controls are changed so that it easier to adjust the sails.

You say that gave the less fit, less strong an advantage. I believe all it did was take away the advantage strong/fit had.

An advantage is when someone can do something that the others can't. In this case, there is no advantage because everyone can now adjust their sails.

All is does is level the playing field in this regard.
 
I'm not very fit at all so surely I should be allowed to start before everybody else so we are all on this "level playing field". When you talk about "taking away advantages" from the fitter, stronger, you could also phrase that as "giving the not as strong, not as fit advantages". Ones' build, strength, weight, skill, (luck ?), etc. all contribute. Seems to me that if we seek a "level playing field" then we should also ban hiking as some people are heavier than others and this gives some an unfair advantage.


I realise some of the above are taking thinks to a bit more of an extreme that the two boats now available, but I do think that its the same principle.


I'm not against the changes, trouble is that it seems to have made two boats in a "one-design". Of course its all a matter of degree. Before the changes I think there were a decent number of non-Olympic level fitness freaks having great weekend racing in lasers (certainly used to be in the UK). It was fun, etc.


Ian​
 
Diemos, the ability to handle the old sail controls wasn't just governed by fitness and motivation - age, physical size, and sex also had big roles to play. As one of those who was training hard and had plenty of upper-body fitness, I think it's good that the older Masters, Women and Youth - who are already at a disadvantage to "open" males - have had the playing field levelled out a bit. That's got to be good.

If you're comparing "open" males, then the guy who training hard enough to have a fitness advantage is going to be miles ahead of the guy who was too unfit to use the old sail controls anyway.

All the new sail controls are doing is allowing the slower sailors to keep a bit closer to the front, and that's a good thing.
 
Please don't mis-understand me, I'm not against the new rig controls, just not keen on the two boats. I think that when the new rules were implemented, the "old" rig should be allowed for boats built before a certain data/hull number, but after that only new rigs. Thus the problems of two boats would be minimised, and old boat owners would have been able to upgrade should they wish.


Its the "Laser" and "Laser Pro" that is (IMHO) two types that I think not good. Buying my own this winter and I will almost certainly get a new rig one.


Ian​
 
I would bet that the "problem" will solve itself in a relatively short time thanks to good old market forces. How many new boats are being sold with the classic rigging compared to the new rigging? And how many of those classic rigged boats are even raced (with the classic rigging)? I'll bet it's precious few. Also think about how many older boats are being upgraded to the new rigging (while there are probably very few being downgraded to the classic rigging. . .). Probably in a few more years this provision in the rules will end up being mostly an anachronism like allowing wood blades for the boats that originally came with them or 3.2 oz sails or sail numbers drawn on in magic marker -- it provided for an orderly transition and the majority of Laser sailors are moving on. Personally I think this was a pretty wise compromise on the part of the Powers That Be that allowed for progress without making old boats obsolete.

-Steve
 

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