Today, when to find sail numbers we simply use the formula A=10, B=11, C=12....ect. But what about really old Lasers? The early 70's boats have sail numbers litterally of what their hull numbers are....such as 255 who's picture used to be on laser.org. At what point do we switch from going from the hull numbers to the formula? My 1974 Laser's sail number according to the formula is 281305....but that really doesn't make sence because I've never seen a boat with a sail number like that before. Am I mistaken??
Older boat's sail numbers
- Thread starter macwas16
- Start date
49208
Tentmaker
My first boat was a '76 ot '77 and the hull number was 49208, my dad had a similar aged boat which was 48xxx so I'd say you have an extra digit in there.
Follow up
Just to follow up this thread, I e-mailed Team Vanguard and here's what the very helpful staff had to say, it's very interesting:
As far as numbers for the sail, yes the formula applies. The number config. Has changed through out the years, I do not remember all the ways the worked it out, but look How do I determine my sail number and boat year? For Lasers up to sail number 148199, the sail number is a number moulded either into the deck under the bow eye or into the transom, or shown on
a plate attached to the rear of the cockpit. For Lasers with sail
numbers from 148200, the sail number is displayed on a unique ISAF building plaque fixed in the rear of the cockpit.
For Lasers where a number is moulded into the transom, the number shows the "serial hull number" of the Laser.
EG: PFS 80000 L879.
In North Amarica, the first 3 characters usually form the builder's ID. (Check http://www.teamvanguard.com/ for any updates, if available.) The rest of the numbers identify the hull. For hulls manufactured in New Zealand, for instance, it is known however that no manufacturer identification code letters may exist here.
In North America, these first 3 characters may be:
PFS = Performance Sailcraft (1971-1974) (Montreal, Québec, Canada: still manufacturing outside of the Americas.)
ZFS = Performance Sailcraft (1974 [as per hulls 16950-51626]-1985) (Point Claire, Québec)
PSC = Performance Sailcraft (19??-19??)
PSL = Performance Sailcraft USA (Owner Don Trask, San Rafael CA, 1973 to early '80s?)
PSI = Performace Sailcraft International (South Africa, until 1989)
ZID = Laser International (Ontario 1984-1991) Reincarnation of original Laser builder. (Also known as Performance Sailcraft Canada.)
PSB = Pearson Small Boats (1989-1991) (RI) Any PSBs with '92 ?
SLI = Sunfish Laser Inc (1991 [or 1992 ?] to March 1997) New
manufacturing facility.
OQT = Vanguard Sailboats Inc., RI (March 1997 to present) Initials stand for Quarter Moon Inc. Production continued in SLI facility which Vanguard purchased. Personnel the same. Does your Hull number help fill out this list?
Next 5 digits are the sail number. If the sail number is great than
99,999, then the first digit is a character, where A=10, B=11, C=12 etc.
(i.e. a letter followed by 5 digits).
Last 4 characters indicate when the boat was built and the model year. Usually 1 letter followed by 3 numbers. The letter indicates the month of manufacture (according to Sunfish/Laser Inc.):
A=Aug, B=Sept, C=Oct, D=Nov, E=Dec, F=Jan, G=Feb, H=Mar, I=April, J=May, K=June, L=July.
The next number indicates the year the boat was built (not model year!), followed by a 2 number model year. Eg.
D494 = Built Nov (D) 1994 (4) for 1994 model year (94).
F697 = Built Jan (F) 1996 for 1997 model year (97)
For example:
SLI F1234 F494 = Sunfish Laser Inc, Sail number 151234, Built in January
1994 for Model Year 1994.
Older lasers: Last four digits of sail number may be missing or belong
to an unknown code (e.g. ZFS 33426 0376 = march '76?). Boat
manufacturing codes seem to conform to some industry norm - an Alden
Ocean (rowing) shell hull number has a similar format.
1971 to 1973 Hulls: Sail number is only found on deck, under the bow
eye. It is also reported that following the Laser prototypes, the first
mass-manufactured Laser was numbered 101.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
--------
European Lasers
UK manufacturer has commonly etched the sail number only under the bow eye, with no additional stamping on the transom. In cases where the etching under the bow eye has special codes (such as "GHN067"), there is also an aluminium sticker riveted into the back wall of the cockpit, and the sail number is etched on the sticker. (Confirmed examples include
UK-made hulls with the numbers 10423, 30648, and 67225.)
NZ Lasers
Until early 1990s, Performance Sailcraft in New Zealand also
manufactured hulls with the sail number stamped on the transom, without any manufacturer codes or manufacturing year identification. NZ hull number 132524 is such a hull. Later, a manufacturer's ID was used: number 156749 had both a manufacturer ID stamped on the transom as well as the sail number.
based on Neil Berman's FAQ1
Just to follow up this thread, I e-mailed Team Vanguard and here's what the very helpful staff had to say, it's very interesting:
As far as numbers for the sail, yes the formula applies. The number config. Has changed through out the years, I do not remember all the ways the worked it out, but look How do I determine my sail number and boat year? For Lasers up to sail number 148199, the sail number is a number moulded either into the deck under the bow eye or into the transom, or shown on
a plate attached to the rear of the cockpit. For Lasers with sail
numbers from 148200, the sail number is displayed on a unique ISAF building plaque fixed in the rear of the cockpit.
For Lasers where a number is moulded into the transom, the number shows the "serial hull number" of the Laser.
EG: PFS 80000 L879.
In North Amarica, the first 3 characters usually form the builder's ID. (Check http://www.teamvanguard.com/ for any updates, if available.) The rest of the numbers identify the hull. For hulls manufactured in New Zealand, for instance, it is known however that no manufacturer identification code letters may exist here.
In North America, these first 3 characters may be:
PFS = Performance Sailcraft (1971-1974) (Montreal, Québec, Canada: still manufacturing outside of the Americas.)
ZFS = Performance Sailcraft (1974 [as per hulls 16950-51626]-1985) (Point Claire, Québec)
PSC = Performance Sailcraft (19??-19??)
PSL = Performance Sailcraft USA (Owner Don Trask, San Rafael CA, 1973 to early '80s?)
PSI = Performace Sailcraft International (South Africa, until 1989)
ZID = Laser International (Ontario 1984-1991) Reincarnation of original Laser builder. (Also known as Performance Sailcraft Canada.)
PSB = Pearson Small Boats (1989-1991) (RI) Any PSBs with '92 ?
SLI = Sunfish Laser Inc (1991 [or 1992 ?] to March 1997) New
manufacturing facility.
OQT = Vanguard Sailboats Inc., RI (March 1997 to present) Initials stand for Quarter Moon Inc. Production continued in SLI facility which Vanguard purchased. Personnel the same. Does your Hull number help fill out this list?
Next 5 digits are the sail number. If the sail number is great than
99,999, then the first digit is a character, where A=10, B=11, C=12 etc.
(i.e. a letter followed by 5 digits).
Last 4 characters indicate when the boat was built and the model year. Usually 1 letter followed by 3 numbers. The letter indicates the month of manufacture (according to Sunfish/Laser Inc.):
A=Aug, B=Sept, C=Oct, D=Nov, E=Dec, F=Jan, G=Feb, H=Mar, I=April, J=May, K=June, L=July.
The next number indicates the year the boat was built (not model year!), followed by a 2 number model year. Eg.
D494 = Built Nov (D) 1994 (4) for 1994 model year (94).
F697 = Built Jan (F) 1996 for 1997 model year (97)
For example:
SLI F1234 F494 = Sunfish Laser Inc, Sail number 151234, Built in January
1994 for Model Year 1994.
Older lasers: Last four digits of sail number may be missing or belong
to an unknown code (e.g. ZFS 33426 0376 = march '76?). Boat
manufacturing codes seem to conform to some industry norm - an Alden
Ocean (rowing) shell hull number has a similar format.
1971 to 1973 Hulls: Sail number is only found on deck, under the bow
eye. It is also reported that following the Laser prototypes, the first
mass-manufactured Laser was numbered 101.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
--------
European Lasers
UK manufacturer has commonly etched the sail number only under the bow eye, with no additional stamping on the transom. In cases where the etching under the bow eye has special codes (such as "GHN067"), there is also an aluminium sticker riveted into the back wall of the cockpit, and the sail number is etched on the sticker. (Confirmed examples include
UK-made hulls with the numbers 10423, 30648, and 67225.)
NZ Lasers
Until early 1990s, Performance Sailcraft in New Zealand also
manufactured hulls with the sail number stamped on the transom, without any manufacturer codes or manufacturing year identification. NZ hull number 132524 is such a hull. Later, a manufacturer's ID was used: number 156749 had both a manufacturer ID stamped on the transom as well as the sail number.
based on Neil Berman's FAQ1
drLaser
Member
Mac writes:
> How do I determine my sail number and boat year?
and finishes as:
> based on Neil Berman's FAQ1
Get your references straight, first, Mac! You should have said:
"Copied word by word from the drLaser website!"
This drLaser FAQ item itself is based on Neil's old FAQ1, all rights to which now reside with drLaser. The reference to Dr. Berman is there out of courtesy and respect!
Don't do it again!
Thanks,
Editor, drLaser
> How do I determine my sail number and boat year?
and finishes as:
> based on Neil Berman's FAQ1
Get your references straight, first, Mac! You should have said:
"Copied word by word from the drLaser website!"
This drLaser FAQ item itself is based on Neil's old FAQ1, all rights to which now reside with drLaser. The reference to Dr. Berman is there out of courtesy and respect!
Don't do it again!
Thanks,
Editor, drLaser
I appologize for my mistake. However apart from the beggining of the post, "Just to follow up this thread, I e-mailed Team Vanguard and here's what the very helpful staff had to say, it's very interesting:" The rest I copied and pasted directly from the e-mail Vanguard sent me in responce. Had I been aware this material came from Dr. Laser's site I would have made sure to to make note of it.
G
Goonie
Guest
I bet you wish you could edit now, don't you!
drLaser
Member
No problem, Mac.
In fact, MY apologies!
I guess I should get on VANGUARD's back for not doing it right.
But I am surprised that you would go to the Vanguard site rather than drLaser, in the first place...
In any case, I'm flattered that Vanguard might have portrayed the drLaser content as its own (if they in fact did so).
I guess your problem was just a formatting problem! When you wrote with all those typo errors:
> The number config. Has changed through out the years, I
> do not remember all the ways the worked it out, but look
> How do I determine my sail number and boat year? ...
the "I" there automatically referred to "macwas16"! Not to Vanguard. The colon at the end of the opening paragraph does not imply that the following sections were what Vanguard sent you. You could equally well be telling us what YOU learned from Vanguard, in your own words, right after the "it's very interesting:"
Your formatting error was not QUOTING Vanguard. So, it was double whammy! It was like plagiarizing both Vanguard Customer Service AND drLaser. The lesson is, if you are reporting what someone else said/wrote, you either QUOTE (here, using a WWW-understandable quotation method), or you write it in your own words. In either case, you should note the source. And when you automatically place your signature at the very bottom (rather than after the initial sentence that belonged to you) the "crime" gets even more serious
So, more care is needed in written communication, even in an informal and friendly medium like this one.
My apologies again.
Cheers,
Shevy
In fact, MY apologies!
I guess I should get on VANGUARD's back for not doing it right.
But I am surprised that you would go to the Vanguard site rather than drLaser, in the first place...
In any case, I'm flattered that Vanguard might have portrayed the drLaser content as its own (if they in fact did so).
I guess your problem was just a formatting problem! When you wrote with all those typo errors:
> The number config. Has changed through out the years, I
> do not remember all the ways the worked it out, but look
> How do I determine my sail number and boat year? ...
the "I" there automatically referred to "macwas16"! Not to Vanguard. The colon at the end of the opening paragraph does not imply that the following sections were what Vanguard sent you. You could equally well be telling us what YOU learned from Vanguard, in your own words, right after the "it's very interesting:"
Your formatting error was not QUOTING Vanguard. So, it was double whammy! It was like plagiarizing both Vanguard Customer Service AND drLaser. The lesson is, if you are reporting what someone else said/wrote, you either QUOTE (here, using a WWW-understandable quotation method), or you write it in your own words. In either case, you should note the source. And when you automatically place your signature at the very bottom (rather than after the initial sentence that belonged to you) the "crime" gets even more serious
So, more care is needed in written communication, even in an informal and friendly medium like this one.
My apologies again.
Cheers,
Shevy
GeoffS
Member
Laser #94?
Hi,
This evening a friend showed me an old Laser he just acquired. It looks to be in pretty good shape (some deck delamination, and a previous owner caused mast-step problem).
Curious, we looked around for the hull number. Nothing on the transom, but a "Performance Sailcraft - Pointe-Claire, Canada" sticker on the aft cockpit bulkhead and the number "94" etched in the deck under the bow eye.
Here are photos of the cockpit sticker and bow-eye:
http://www.mailbag.com/users/sobering/CockpitSticker.jpg
http://www.mailbag.com/users/sobering/BowEye.jpg
Is this *really* Laser hull # 94?
Cheers,
Geoff S.
DN US-5156/Laser 145234/Renegade 510
Hi,
This evening a friend showed me an old Laser he just acquired. It looks to be in pretty good shape (some deck delamination, and a previous owner caused mast-step problem).
Curious, we looked around for the hull number. Nothing on the transom, but a "Performance Sailcraft - Pointe-Claire, Canada" sticker on the aft cockpit bulkhead and the number "94" etched in the deck under the bow eye.
Here are photos of the cockpit sticker and bow-eye:
http://www.mailbag.com/users/sobering/CockpitSticker.jpg
http://www.mailbag.com/users/sobering/BowEye.jpg
Is this *really* Laser hull # 94?
Cheers,
Geoff S.
DN US-5156/Laser 145234/Renegade 510
drLaser
Member
This thing just ate my reply!
Which is now reduced to a one liner: I tend to agree with Mac.
Shevy
PS. OK, TWO lines: Check the related drLaser FAQ items, especially "Point-Claire".
Which is now reduced to a one liner: I tend to agree with Mac.
Shevy
PS. OK, TWO lines: Check the related drLaser FAQ items, especially "Point-Claire".
GeoffS
Member
Shevy,
I assume the latter of your two lines (re: Pointe-Claire) refers to the note in the FAQ about the interpretation of stern numbers:
> ZFS = Performance Sailcraft (1974 [as per hulls 16950-51626]-1985) (Point Claire, Québec)
That would seem to indicate this hull is from after 1974 (although it has no stern number).
Someone from Performance Sailcraft 2000 suggested removing the bow-eye and seeing if there is anything else etched in the deck nearby.
I found another reference to a two-digit number under a bow-eye in the drLaser FAQ section: "Who owns the oldest Laser afloat?":
> Considering the hulls manufactured possibly later in 1971, Michael Klybor in Annapolis, MD,
> noted he owns Laser #95. (Near the bow eye, there is a faintly etched "95", as far as he
> can read it.) Michael notes that as far as he knows, it was built in Europe. [However, our
> data indicates no Lasers were produced in Europe that early. Ed.] According to our data,
> this is probably one of the oldest known production Lasers afloat. Michael bought it from
> the original owner, who purchased it in Ireland before moving to St. Louis, and then to
> Chicago (where Michael bought it). Why it is numbered "95" remains a mistery.
It sounds my friend's boat may fall into the same "mysterious" category.
Does anyone know, are there "official" records of early Laser production anywhere?
Cheers,
Geoff S.
I assume the latter of your two lines (re: Pointe-Claire) refers to the note in the FAQ about the interpretation of stern numbers:
> ZFS = Performance Sailcraft (1974 [as per hulls 16950-51626]-1985) (Point Claire, Québec)
That would seem to indicate this hull is from after 1974 (although it has no stern number).
Someone from Performance Sailcraft 2000 suggested removing the bow-eye and seeing if there is anything else etched in the deck nearby.
I found another reference to a two-digit number under a bow-eye in the drLaser FAQ section: "Who owns the oldest Laser afloat?":
> Considering the hulls manufactured possibly later in 1971, Michael Klybor in Annapolis, MD,
> noted he owns Laser #95. (Near the bow eye, there is a faintly etched "95", as far as he
> can read it.) Michael notes that as far as he knows, it was built in Europe. [However, our
> data indicates no Lasers were produced in Europe that early. Ed.] According to our data,
> this is probably one of the oldest known production Lasers afloat. Michael bought it from
> the original owner, who purchased it in Ireland before moving to St. Louis, and then to
> Chicago (where Michael bought it). Why it is numbered "95" remains a mistery.
It sounds my friend's boat may fall into the same "mysterious" category.
Does anyone know, are there "official" records of early Laser production anywhere?
Cheers,
Geoff S.
drLaser
Member
> It sounds my friend's boat may fall into the same "mysterious" category.
Yes, but if it DOES fall into that category, the "Pointe-Claire" tag is surely an old FAKE. The plant did not exist before 1974. And hulls produced there start with (around) hull # 16950.
Hull #95 did not have any "fake" Pointe-Claire tags.
And I called it an "OLD" fake, since someone might be motivated to show the boat as a (newer) "Pointe-Claire" boat in the early seventies, nobody in his right mind would want to do that today if the hull is actually #94.
In all cases, we know production boats start with #101, and the general folklore says that there were only two prototypes.
Once again, tracing back her history from the previous owner is useful.
Shevy
Yes, but if it DOES fall into that category, the "Pointe-Claire" tag is surely an old FAKE. The plant did not exist before 1974. And hulls produced there start with (around) hull # 16950.
Hull #95 did not have any "fake" Pointe-Claire tags.
And I called it an "OLD" fake, since someone might be motivated to show the boat as a (newer) "Pointe-Claire" boat in the early seventies, nobody in his right mind would want to do that today if the hull is actually #94.
In all cases, we know production boats start with #101, and the general folklore says that there were only two prototypes.
Once again, tracing back her history from the previous owner is useful.
Shevy
MacKenzie,
#255 is my boat (Performance Sailcraft, Montreal, Québec, Canada). The serial number is stamped under the bow eye. I had her original sail on that day with 255 in red. I referred to Dick Tillman's Laser Sailing (1975) when I applied the sail numbers. The ILCA rules, in those days, did not specify color requirements for the numbers, so I chose red to match the Laser logo on the sail.
Barry
#255 is my boat (Performance Sailcraft, Montreal, Québec, Canada). The serial number is stamped under the bow eye. I had her original sail on that day with 255 in red. I referred to Dick Tillman's Laser Sailing (1975) when I applied the sail numbers. The ILCA rules, in those days, did not specify color requirements for the numbers, so I chose red to match the Laser logo on the sail.
Barry
Attachments
MacKenzie,
Quoting from the ILCA By-Laws (Amended November 11, 1974) in Dick Tillman's Laser Sailing (1975) which refers to a boat of the vintage you now own:
Class Emblem and Sail Numbers
20. The registration number of each boat, as molded into the deck under the bow eye or into the transom, shall be the sail number of the boat.......
So, look closely at the transom for the numbers. You mentioned in an earlier post several months ago that the boat might have been repainted in which case you'll have to look a bit harder for the transom numbers.
Barry
Quoting from the ILCA By-Laws (Amended November 11, 1974) in Dick Tillman's Laser Sailing (1975) which refers to a boat of the vintage you now own:
Class Emblem and Sail Numbers
20. The registration number of each boat, as molded into the deck under the bow eye or into the transom, shall be the sail number of the boat.......
So, look closely at the transom for the numbers. You mentioned in an earlier post several months ago that the boat might have been repainted in which case you'll have to look a bit harder for the transom numbers.
Barry
Lorenzo
Member
jeffers
Active Member
On older boats the sail number should be under the fairlead on the bow as well (they are on UK and EUR boats anyway).
49208
Tentmaker
It's 64720
The B at the end is not part of the sail number (164720 would not have been built yet - that would be right around a year 2000 hull)