What's new

New standard sail

TonyB

Member
Is anybody else hearing the stories about the new standard sail being available later this year?

My sources are pretty reliable, but if the stories are true it would seem strange that there has been no publicity yet. Maybe after the World Council meeting in a couple of weeks?
 

AlanD

Former ISAF Laser Measurer
How many of the old sails would get sold, once the new ones are released or once a release date is known? It's better for the manufacturer to keep the hat on it, so all the old stock is sold. However, this might explain why there seems to be a shortage of sails in North America.
 

49208

Tentmaker
The sail shortage in NA was a couple months ago (the pipeline is flowing again), and not due to a new sail design
 

Rob B

Well-Known Member
How many of the old sails would get sold, once the new ones are released or once a release date is known? It's better for the manufacturer to keep the hat on it, so all the old stock is sold. However, this might explain why there seems to be a shortage of sails in North America.
In basic retail terms the "old sails" should simply be considered "spring/summer fashions", advertised as such and put on the markdown rack to move them. At our store we take a 40% first cut on out of date goods and BAM they're out the door! It's a great cash flow generator as those goods are always long paid for and typically when the customers are in buying the sale items they are also picking up new season, (full priced) goods. It's known as a win/win. Just think of how many low budget beginners the class could help out with CLASS LEGAL new sails if they were on sale? Instead of being forced to by a knock off to replace the bedsheet on the 1983 boat they just bought for $500.00?

This COULD be a well handled PR boost for the manufacturer if handled correctly like they did with the offer to polish old hulls if folks brought them to the plant and took a facility tour a year or so ago......In addition, it would put the lid on rumors of liquidity problems w/the manufacturer. Or they can play the cards close to their chest, let the rumors fester a little longer and piss off a lot of class members by announcing the new sails 30 days in advance. I hope no one in the executive office of the manufacturer went to the same PR class as the soon to be former BP CEO went to........
 

marginal

Member
A sensible solution would be to introduce the new sail a long time in advance of it becoming class legal at major regattas.

It could be introduced this year, but only become legal after the 2012 Olympics for example.

This would allow graceful phase out of the old sail, as serious racers would continue to need the existing design for events. It would also allow everyone to plan their phase over to the new design, without all of the old sails becoming obsolete overnight. Suppliers would also have an easier time managing their stock.

I would be much happier buying a new 'existing design' sail if I knew that I would not wake up tomorrow to find it was obsolete / no longer competitive (in fact, I have a new rolled sail behind the couch, and this is a concern....)
 

Deimos

Member
Given that there will (supposedly) be no performance difference between old and any new design sails then I would probably delay buying anything until people have decided if the new design really did last longer. However, I do like the sound of old design being discounted - but if e.g 30% discount against a new design lasting e.g. 50% longer ...

Ian
 

torrid

Just sailing
Given that there will (supposedly) be no performance difference between old and any new design sails then I would probably delay buying anything until people have decided if the new design really did last longer. However, I do like the sound of old design being discounted - but if e.g 30% discount against a new design lasting e.g. 50% longer ...

Ian
I don't think this is realistic in any situation. A new sail or any kind is going to cause a hiccup in the one-design aspect of the class for a couple of years. I think most of us would say it is worth it to address the cost/durability issue of the current design.
 

Rob B

Well-Known Member
A sensible solution would be to introduce the new sail a long time in advance of it becoming class legal at major regattas.

It could be introduced this year, but only become legal after the 2012 Olympics for example.

This would allow graceful phase out of the old sail, as serious racers would continue to need the existing design for events. It would also allow everyone to plan their phase over to the new design, without all of the old sails becoming obsolete overnight. Suppliers would also have an easier time managing their stock.

I would be much happier buying a new 'existing design' sail if I knew that I would not wake up tomorrow to find it was obsolete / no longer competitive (in fact, I have a new rolled sail behind the couch, and this is a concern....)
I see your point, but who is going to throw down $ 600.00+ for a new design "practice" sail that can't be used at events until 2012, (assuming one comes out before then)? When it happens it needs to be a clean break. The manufacturers don't want or need the hassle of managing inventories and production of 2 different full rig sails. If/when the sail change is made there will be growing pains associated w/it. The trick is to minimize the pain for all parties. I can see Alan's point how the class may not want to open this up for a "General discussion", but it would be in their best interest to do this in some other way than "SURPRISE! as of today we'll no longer make the old sail and the new sails are being shipped tomorrow!"
 

Eric_R

D10 Secretary
...but it would be in their best interest to do this in some other way than "SURPRISE! as of today we'll no longer make the old sail and the new sails are being shipped tomorrow!"
Didn't that happen with the last Radial upgrade?
 

torrid

Just sailing
Didn't that happen with the last Radial upgrade?
I don't know about the lag in announcement and availability, but I know there was a considerable inventory backlog of the old design. I had a hard time getting my hands on the "new" design, when ironically the "old" design was probably better for my size.
 

Eric_R

D10 Secretary
I don't know about the lag in announcement and availability, but I know there was a considerable inventory backlog of the old design. I had a hard time getting my hands on the "new" design, when ironically the "old" design was probably better for my size.
I remember back in January of whatever year that was announced one of the local dealers touted they had a few left because no other dealers in the area had them.

Obviously there will be a limited supply at first as well so you do have to wait after the first batch gets out.
 

ChrisOwens

New Member
I don't think this is realistic in any situation. A new sail or any kind is going to cause a hiccup in the one-design aspect of the class for a couple of years.
I'm not so sure. At the highest levels of competition, people buy new sails for every regatta, so the sail change isn't going to make any difference there. Down in the trenches, people sail until their sails look like dishrags, and then replace them. Not sure the change is going to matter much down there, either. Maybe in the middle it'll make a diffrence.
 

torrid

Just sailing
I remember back in January of whatever year that was announced one of the local dealers touted they had a few left because no other dealers in the area had them.

Obviously there will be a limited supply at first as well so you do have to wait after the first batch gets out.
I had a lot of issues with a well-known supplier of Laser equipment. I asked point blank if they had the Mk. 6, and was assured they did. When I got my sail, it was the old design. I had to go through a bit of hassle to get it straightened out.
 

Rob B

Well-Known Member
I had a lot of issues with a well-known supplier of Laser equipment. I asked point blank if they had the Mk. 6, and was assured they did. When I got my sail, it was the old design. I had to go through a bit of hassle to get it straightened out.
I went through the same thing back in the early 90's with a standard sail. These guys told me it was on the way and charged my credit card. 2 weeks later no sail and lots of excuses. It was a good thing to be an American Express customer. I never did business w/those guys again.
 

TonyB

Member
I would have thought some sort of introductory discount would make sense, to accelerate the uptake of the new sail.

There's going to be significant pain when it's released because it can't possibly have identical performance to the old sail. There were notable differences between the Mk5 and Mk6 Radial sails, and those changes were just tinkering - this is a whole new sail.

Short sharp pain will be much better for the class than long, drawn out pain - the sooner the bulk of the fleet are using it the better. The best way to do this is a decent discount for the first three to six months.

Other stuff I've heard about the new sail - heavier cloth (4.8 oz), radial cut except for one panel, maybe a different sailmaker (but still one of the big players). Hopefully updated construction method as well, to allow laser cutting and so on.
 

Rob B

Well-Known Member
I would have thought some sort of introductory discount would make sense, to accelerate the uptake of the new sail.
There's an idea. Discount the new sails to get it out there, but they'll have to take a hit on the old sails to clear them out or donate them to college programs or some other tax deductable organizations. Either way they have an opportunity to do the change well or handle it poorly.
 

Deimos

Member
There's going to be significant pain when it's released because it can't possibly have identical performance to the old sail.
Why not identical performance because supposedly the 3rd party knock-offs have identical performance whilst lasting longer. But then on this forum the guy from Intensity claimed that their Laser sails gave better performance so it s all a bit confusing.

I am sure the builder will say "identical performance" whilst enjoying rumours about better performance (so everybody will rush out and buy one - whatever the state of their existing sail). After all, builder wants profit and has no interest in the success of the boat (other than how that helps profits).

Ian
 

Wavedancer

Upside down?
Staff member
Obviously the top Laser sailors will buy the new sail right away or get an inside way to get such a sail before us, regular guys and gals. They will be winning when racing with weekend warriors (most of us). Based on these results, many will conclude the new sail is 'faster'. This is hogwash of course, because those top guys and gals are much better sailors to begin with, training almost full time.
 
. But then on this forum the guy from Intensity claimed that their Laser sails gave better performance so it s all a bit confusing.

Ian
Not true. Our sails sail level with the class sail. 5 years of selling them and no one has been able to show an advantage or disadvantage. Not confusing at all.
Thank you.
 

Deimos

Member
Not true. Our sails sail level with the class sail. 5 years of selling them and no one has been able to show an advantage or disadvantage. Not confusing at all.
Thank you.
What I meant by confusing was when a year or two ago you (or somebody from Intensity) posted that your sails were faster than standard sails (http://www.laserforum.org/showthread.php?t=7627&highlight=I+have+been+going+over+this+with+my+production+guys.&page=2 post #27
IntensitySails said:
I have been going over this with my production guys. This is their response;
...
6. ... The fact that the Intensity sail is faster than a "race" sail in many conditions is an added bonus.
But then you retracted the comment - hence the confusion. Were you correct in you original post or the modified later post once the "level playing field" aspects had been raised.

Ian
 
But then you retracted the comment - hence the confusion. Were you correct in you original post or the modified later post once the "level playing field" aspects had been raised.

Ian[/QUOTE]

I think 5 years and thousands of sails made with no advantage or disadvantage over the class sail speaks for itself. The rest is a red herring!
 

Deimos

Member
But then you retracted the comment - hence the confusion. Were you correct in you original post or the modified later post once the "level playing field" aspects had been raised.

Ian
I think 5 years and thousands of sails made with no advantage or disadvantage over the class sail speaks for itself. The rest is a red herring![/QUOTE]

More confusion because the comment you made about them being faster was only 3 years ago so if they were faster 3 years ago how come they are the same now ? Has the design changed to make them the same ?

Ian
 
Has the design changed to make them the same ?

Ian[/QUOTE]

As you know, I am sure, the class sails construction has not changed thus Intensity sails full rig, radial and 4.7 sails have not changed and are cut and constructed identically to the class sails. They are in use worldwide.

No confusion for anyone on this other than Deimos.

If you wish to communicate directly with me to help you to understand please feel free to email me directly.
 

Deimos

Member
Ian said:
Has the design changed to make them the same ?

Ian
As you know, I am sure, the class sails construction has not changed thus Intensity sails full rig, radial and 4.7 sails have not changed and are cut and constructed identically to the class sails. They are in use worldwide.

No confusion for anyone on this other than Deimos.

If you wish to communicate directly with me to help you to understand please feel free to email me directly.
No point in arguing further. One moment you claim your sails are faster (see quote before) and when it is "inconvenient" (given the class ethic) you claim they are the same !!! No way to resolve the conflict when both sides come from the same person !!

Ian
 
No point in arguing further. One moment you claim your sails are faster (see quote before) and when it is "inconvenient" (given the class ethic) you claim they are the same !!! No way to resolve the conflict when both sides come from the same person !!

Ian
You can argue that the world is flat too but the reality is self evident. I NEVER made that claim that my sails were anything but level with the class sail. All of the people out there sailing my sails can speak for themselves so I cannot help but wonder what your concern is.
 

gouvernail

Super Opinionated and Always Correct
After reading the posts above I THINK somebody is trying to hang a speed claim on somebody despite apologies and denials that it is reasonable to continue to hang said claim on that individual.

So all that remains is and nobody seems to be disputing it...Intensity is providing the sailors with a sail that is pretty much just like the class legal sail for something under $200 while the class ( who is us) only allows its membership ( which is us telling us what we can or cannot do) to use the builder supplied just like the Intensity sail version that happens to cost about three times as much.

if I understand correctly, the NA president has already told us everybody has sails made by exploited underpaid cheap labor and the only reason for the price diffference is Class Legal sails must go through the builder's hands before we can have them.

Our president failed to mention royalty and ISAF button expense but he explained that teh Builders take $00 per sail and if teh builders and dealers could not mark up our sails those builders and dealers could not afford to spend money supporting our game.


So....The problem with this Intensity fellow is he fails to take $400 from us for each sail he sells and the Intensity guy never supplies all the boats for the world Championships and then sells them for more than it cost him to build them.

Or something like that. I ahven't seen exactly where the $4,000,000 per 10,000 sails goes for cetain but...it has something to do with supporting our game.
or so we are told.
 

Deimos

Member
You can argue that the world is flat too but the reality is self evident. I NEVER made that claim that my sails were anything but level with the class sail. All of the people out there sailing my sails can speak for themselves so I cannot help but wonder what your concern is.
Well no point in arguing further because clearly my English language skills are not adequate because I understand

IntensitySails said:
The fact that the Intensity sail is faster than a "race" sail in many conditions is an added bonus.
to mean the sail is faster. Strange thing this english when "the Intensity sail is faster than a "race" sail" actually means they are not faster !!!

(I thought I had had my say but clearly we Brits obviously speak totally different language to those in the US)

Ian
 

Rob B

Well-Known Member
Well no point in arguing further because clearly my English language skills are not adequate because I understand



to mean the sail is faster. Strange thing this english when "the Intensity sail is faster than a "race" sail" actually means they are not faster !!!

(I thought I had had my say but clearly we Brits obviously speak totally different language to those in the US)

Ian
Yet, you continue.............BTW, the new lass sail design is going to be different in performance to some degree from the current design if the class does go with the radial cut sail. The radial cut will provide a stronger pattern which will allow the sail to wear better which, by nature, will ause it to perform better than the current sail at least over time. I think the point the class is tyring to push is there is nothing "radical" going on with the design like the Rooster 8.1 sail or something aong those lines. The shape will be the same and the size will be the same as will the battens. The window may be bigger and the pattern/material will change to provide for a longer lasting sail. I got to play with the radial design on shore a little and I really liked it. I'll bet the class will try to get another $ 100.00 per sail if it is proven to last longer.............
 

SFBayLaser

Member
Please take this post as a physicist's attempt at humor while also allowing some leeway to combine what we're learning on the LaserForum with one other piece of information to then draw a conclusion (and poke a little fun which I hope is appreciated):

a) By LaserForum consensus, the current European/North American builder is losing money,

b) At the same time, the current European/North American builder and dealers are reaping a massive $4,000,000/year in income by screwing all of us.

c) (New Information) The current European/North American builder is producing around (but certainly less than) 2000 boats per year.

d) LaserForum consensus is that we should agree to choose one of the replica sail retailers to become the "new" Laser sail since then we'll all save uncountable numbers of cases of beer which could be put to good/better use. A LaserForum poll will be used to select that retailer, once selected they will agree to be inspected by the Laser Class and pay the puny 7.50 pound sterling royalty fee for sails (which might pay for the annual inspection and the precious sail button) - but otherwise hold their price where it is.

My simpleton conclusion: the builders and dealers will now collectively need to make up at least $4,000,000 a year in income and, really, the only way to do that is to increase the price of the boat. So... let's see, $4,000,000 divided by 2000... move the zeroes, carry the one, oh wait, no need to carry since 2 goes into 4 2 times... lots of zeroes to deal with, let's see, where is that calculator? Oh, right, $4,000,000 divided by 2000 is $2000. Ah ha! So the builders and dealers will need to see the retail price of the Laser increase from $5600 to $7600 (in the US) in order to maintain their current state of losing money at a rate that seems to allow them to stay in business (I guess like an airline). No worries, the newbies will have even more incentive to get into the growing sport of sailing if the entry cost goes up by $2000! Its like mountain biking, the more expensive it is the more people want to do it!

And now a word from our sponsor: come on out here to San Francisco where we can sell you one, or all, of 5 different bridges, plus one that is still under construction! Heck, we'll give you a fantastic deal on the one its replacing! And if you hurry you can watch the Finn Gold Cup race out of the same launching area that will be used for the Master Worlds next year (ie Steve's Marina as in Forum member sorosz)!

-or-

In other words, be careful when making back of the envelope calculations when you don't have all of the information.
 
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