New Standard Laser Sail Design

Sail4SC

Member
Laser News Flash.. There could be a new laser sail design in our near future. An unmarked sail was spotted in Terrigal, Australia at the Master Worlds last week. It was openly rigged in the boatyard (rugby field), it was tested on a windy (15-18 knots) practice day before the championship started... this new design seem to be made from a heavier and superior cloth weight. Additional differences included carbon scrim to reinforce a significantly larger window, a radial cut similar to the current radial sails. The experimental sail was taken out for a spin by well known NA class president and looked to have good bend characteristics with the current laser mast sections. A noticeable non-fluttering tighter leech and 3 parallel draft stripes make it stand out in a crowd..

Let's get this thing on some ballet and vote it in!.. :)
 

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I have followed the rather heated thread on the quality of Laser sails, and have a question to you more experienced sailors:

Wouldn't it be possible to produce and sell hi tech sails, in the correct Laser-shape, for everyday training? That way you could get relevant training every day, all season, with the same sail shape as your mint regatta sail that you unpack the day before the first big event, to be class legal?
 
I have followed the rather heated thread on the quality of Laser sails, and have a question to you more experienced sailors:

Wouldn't it be possible to produce and sell hi tech sails, in the correct Laser-shape, for everyday training? That way you could get relevant training every day, all season, with the same sail shape as your mint regatta sail that you unpack the day before the first big event, to be class legal?

Yes, it is very possible.

I bought one from Benson sails several years ago - it is cut like a class-legal sail, but is made from a more durable cloth and lasts longer. He also makes better designed sails from both Dacron and mylar, but I decided not to get one of those so my practice sail would better mimic my race sail.
 
I have followed the rather heated thread on the quality of Laser sails, and have a question to you more experienced sailors:

Wouldn't it be possible to produce and sell hi tech sails, in the correct Laser-shape, for everyday training? That way you could get relevant training every day, all season, with the same sail shape as your mint regatta sail that you unpack the day before the first big event, to be class legal?

Here is the answer to your prayers: http://www.intensitysails.com/
There are several threads on this forum related to the pros and cons of these sails.
 
Check out that cut! Is it really a radial cut? Or are those just fold lines? I can't tell from the supplied photo.
 
No I LOVE draft strips with a burning passion, had em on my Sabot. I just think the Window is fugly big, and I think a better sail material could have been used. I would like to see something different, not reinvent the octagonal wheel
 
the price doesn't matter as much to them, with help from their national organization, their YC, donations, and sponsors
 
I re-read the original post and see that the author says that it IS a radial cut sail.

If it'll be more durable, I'm game.
 
I think Radial cuts are better at keeping their shape and have less stretch yada yada yada
 
Though I doubt this sail will be less expensive than the current sail, I'm going to try and keep an open mind. The main problems I see with the current sail are quality/consistency of the material and overall durability of the sail through a season.

If class officials decide to present this sail to the class for approval, I think they would need to consider these areas:
- Specify the deficiencies of the current sail design they are trying to fix
- Address how this new design solves those problems
- Justify the expected increase in price
- Address how the new design will affect boat performance, particularly considering the wide weight of those who sail Lasers

Period change for a class can be good (like the Pro rig upgrades). However a simple "newer is better" is not enough reason to make a major change like a new sail design.
 
attachment.php



as the enlarged pic shows, 4 radial panels above a large bottom triangle with a long flat strip just after the sleeve. Christ that window is ugly ! LOL why not just make the bottom triangle see-through? And check out the delightfull bunching at around 2/3 up the mast.

I dunno, I'm all for a new sail, but my BS radar has a blip on it. Gremlin moving fast off the starboard quarter, could be photoshop hoax... LOL
 
Cor blimey,

the amount of whinging about needing a new sail design etc. and then when there appears to be moves to get one sorted out all that happens is people gripe about it!

I think the sail could well be pretty cool and look forward to seeing how it goes. I'm sure if its rubbish then its design will be changed until its not.

Result!
 
If class officials decide to present this sail to the class for approval, I think they would need to consider these areas:
- Specify the deficiencies of the current sail design they are trying to fix
- Address how this new design solves those problems
- Justify the expected increase in price

If you read Tillman's book, specifically the talk with Hans Fogh about the development of the Radial, one of things he states is that if they could do it over, a Radial full sail would have been something they would have done. In theory, the load paths should be better, reducing stretch and strain across panel seams. I would think that a radial design coupled with a heavier cloth that is produced widely would result in a longer lasting sail.
 
Persistence may pay. Publishing constant and relentless demands for a decent product may just cause the builders to provide that decent product.

Cost more?? A piece of fluttery stretchy crap is not a sail at all so there is nothing currently being supplied with which to compare costs.
 
not a hox... :rolleyes:
I also heard they are considering a very similar cost to existing sails because there is no middleman involved with the production (ie. North or Hyde). No guarantees of that.
 

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Wow, I like the look of that sail.

I would definately be in favor of the sail assuming it's a much higher quality than current. Even if price increases say $100 it's well worth it if the sail last twice as long.
 
not a hox... :rolleyes:
I also heard they are considering a very similar cost to existing sails because there is no middleman involved with the production (ie. North or Hyde). No guarantees of that.

No middleman invovled in the production? Then who would actually make the sail?
 
the price doesn't matter as much to them, with help from their national organization, their YC, donations, and sponsors

Don't look too close to our national organization for help during an olympic campaign. They provide assistance to the group or person they feel is the best candidate to bring home a medal. Once you've won the trial you'll get something, but even then it is scaled based on your world ranking and results.

Just ask Paul Forester, (2004 470 Gold winner). This was his 4th campaign/olympics. He did the least amount of racing/training ever, but since he silver medaled in AUS during 2000 he had the best support from the IOCC and US Sailing. Hell US Sailing begged him to go to Europe just to get the US qualified to sail in the Olympics and once he did they turned on the support, (as best they could anyway).

BTW, it takes about $80k a year to support a 470 olympic campaign. Probably because you have to do all of your serious racing in Europe. Not sure what it cost Mark in the Laser last time.
 
Reasons for my initial cool response:

this is a radial sail....

radial02.jpg


and what a pretty sail it is too. Notice the hieght of the woman's head versus the hieght of the window. No need for windows when a) you can't see anything usefull out them b) when people with windowless practice sails don't start crashing into things through lack of visibility. As for the carbon reinforcing, that's just silly added expense no one needs.

This new sail looks like the same cloth, maybe just heavier - well why not address the real issue...flappy leech...and use a stronger material up the leech panel.

Hans Fogh this and that...ok wonderful, but things have moved on since they had that discussion about wanting the standard rig to be radial. The class shouldn't get stuck in the past by valuing nostalgia and repuation over modern technique and materials.

Sail design is about form and shape. An ugly window (or an ugly anything) says to me that the builder isn't much of a designer. Inspect modern sails and see how good they look - the panel shape is sexy, the shapes complement each other the whole sail looks good. There is proportion. It isn't coincidence. Fast efficient shape looks good.

Add to that that tell tales that are well back from the luff and too stiff to be of any use and warning bells start ringing.

So sorry if I don't snap up the first effort just because it exists, or get shirty because ILCA have ignored the problem for 30 years. Sail design via committee is what I expect from ILCA, but it's not what I want. I want a new better sail that has been thought out properly by people who know what they're doing. I'll pay for that.
 
Don't look too close to our national organization for help during an olympic campaign. They provide assistance to the group or person they feel is the best candidate to bring home a medal. Once you've won the trial you'll get something, but even then it is scaled based on your world ranking and results.

Just ask Paul Forester, (2004 470 Gold winner). This was his 4th campaign/olympics. He did the least amount of racing/training ever, but since he silver medaled in AUS during 2000 he had the best support from the IOCC and US Sailing. Hell US Sailing begged him to go to Europe just to get the US qualified to sail in the Olympics and once he did they turned on the support, (as best they could anyway).

BTW, it takes about $80k a year to support a 470 olympic campaign. Probably because you have to do all of your serious racing in Europe. Not sure what it cost Mark in the Laser last time.

Under the guidance of Dean Brenner, the format has vastly changed. For each class of boat, there are only 3 sailors or teams, instead of the old 5, and with the addition of AlphaGraphics as title sponsor to Team USA, they are getting much more money than they used to, and now most of their time is devoted to sailing. Please read the current issue of Sailing World.

*US Sailing has also just started the US Youth Development Team (or called something to that effect) which main purpose is get take the best of the youngsters and promote them for the Olympics and get them to regattas. So far, I think it is only in Lasers and Radials





Reasons for my initial cool response:


This new sail looks like the same cloth, maybe just heavier - well why not address the real issue...flappy leech...and use a stronger material up the leech panel.

Hans Fogh this and that...ok wonderful, but things have moved on since they had that discussion about wanting the standard rig to be radial. The class shouldn't get stuck in the past by valuing nostalgia and repuation over modern technique and materials.

I actually thought the cloth looked much lighter, but its hard to tell

and yes, we need to move on from the past, and start looking foward to new sail shapes and designs, something Finn/CII like
 
I much agree with Ross, the Laser needs to start looking toward the advances of modern technology and make a sail that is durable and equal in performance to current. What we don't want is sails being manufactured by many companies and becoming optimized to the sailor's characteristics like the Finn.

The last thing the Laser class needs is a situation where we are measuring bend characteristics at 1/3, 2/3, and tip to get a true fit.
 
I much agree with Ross, the Laser needs to start looking toward the advances of modern technology and make a sail that is durable and equal in performance to current. What we don't want is sails being manufactured by many companies and becoming optimized to the sailor's characteristics like the Finn.

The last thing the Laser class needs is a situation where we are measuring bend characteristics at 1/3, 2/3, and tip to get a true fit.

This is true, the sail must be as it currently is, and fit a broad range of weights. But I believe that it can be designed stylistically like a Finn or CII sail, with similar cloth, and design
 
The laser is never going to be the fastest boat out there. But it happens to be on of the most raced single handed boat in the world. The idea of the laser is not to be high tech or fast the idea is to be simple fun one design. With each upgrade the boat is getting more complicated and takes more time to rig up and more special care. The fact is the sail does not need to be high tech like a Finn sail. Finn sails sell for over 1000 dollars https://www.northorder.com/securenew/finn.php. If we had a finn type sail I have no doubt that it to will be over $1000. The only thing that really needs to be improved on our sail is the durability anything further then that will hurt the class because its changing what our boat is. The from reading other sailing forums like SA I have gathered that main thing that stops people from joining the laser class is the fact that to be competitive you have to buy a new sail very often.
 
Please read the current issue of Sailing World.

*US Sailing has also just started the US Youth Development Team (or called something to that effect) which main purpose is get take the best of the youngsters and promote them for the Olympics and get them to regattas. So far, I think it is only in Lasers and Radials

Just got the Sailing World in the mail this afternoon. I'll check it out.
 

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