New Sail, New Class, Laser Hull Rooster 8.1 Rig

Thats a great idea, I wonder if it will ever become class legal?

I think the hull will handle it ok, but time will tell.
 
The builders and the class itself brought this on . They first introduced the concept that lasers should have multiple "one for each of you" rigs when the M rig was built.
The class and builders have been bent on self destruction by division since the earliest says.
Now that alternative rigs are so acceptable that one of the fake lasers is used in the Olympic$, and now that the class is supporting the use of the towel on a bent stick and recognizing world championships among sailors who belong in Optis rather than Lasers...It was just a matter of time until somebody decided to offer the big rig for the Laser.
Open rig Laser sailing cannot be far away.
Open rig Lasering will introduce the Laser to the lucrative "competition among sailmalers." There will be available sponsorships and Group 3 sailing will come to lasering.
Before long we will be alowing any hull shaped like a Laser to be raced under any rig using any blades able to slide through the hull.

Of course, all of this will allow more sailors to win races in smaller and smaller fleets and the real sailing itself will decline from physical and mental on the water competition to a shoreside design and spending contest.

I suppose it is time to develop the Fat Boy. If the Laser fleet is going to be killed off by those who practice divide and conquer, I may as well re focus my efforts toward survival in the new game.

Watch this thread for introduction of the New Fat Boy.

I want my piece of the greed pie!!!
 
Is it greed or someone with a vision, seeing an potential to put even more people in a Laser hull ?

Rooster's product seems targeted directly at the over 200 pounders, who finding themselves completely un-competitive in the standard, leave the class and go sail Finns, Megabytes or similar singlehanded boats. The problem there is cost. A decent used Finn is more then a new Laser. A new Finn with a new carbon mast is 3 times the cost. This should be an easy sell to those guys, with or without class support.
 
I can maybe see having ONE alternate size plan like the Radial as this opens up Laser sailing across a broad range of sailors. However, this 8.1 strikes me just like the 4.7 as being a little too much.
 
Merrily said:
That looks cool for heavier people, but you have to wonder if the mast step and hull are up to the greater stress from a bigger rig.

From my experiences with the mast step of newer hulls, I agree, you exact found a lack of it, I think

During the last couple of years, I have seen not few new hulls, that aft a season of intensive sailing, already had cracks in the gelcoat of the deck around the hole of the maststep. Some of you perhaps remember the thread (in 2006) I made at TLF about repairing such cracks.

If the Laser, rigged with the standard rig, is sailed progressive (like it should in our days) the mast step often is over-stressed. Here I talk of hulls of the Laser, that come out of the moulds of Performance Sailing Europe Ltd ("PSE").

Sailing in waves and the frequence of using the boat in heavy winds do additional their work to "premature grow old" the mast step. Now translating this to a bigger rig than the standard rig, in my opinion, do accelerate the fatigue of the mast step.

The maststep of the Byte of Ian Bruce and the Laser Pico (here I mean only in general the way how durable the Pico-hull is constructed - with more modern materials and technical know how then for the Laser-hull) are made better (= have a longer lifetime) than the over 36 years old idea of Ian Bruce to take just a simple tube of fibreglass founded in a small piece of plywood, that is glued to the keel-bottom of the hull of the Laser (I mean, at that time, it has been a good idea to construct it in that way, but in our days, the loads at the mast step already with using the standard rig are reaching the limit of this construction).

I personally appreciate Steve's idea and think, yes, this 8.1-rigg opens a new window for the Laser and will bring new Laser entusiasts to our lovely unique sailing-dinghy. I hope, this idea for the 8.1-rig not goes the same way like the fantastic Laser-EPS, that unfortunately not is produced any longer in our days (perhaps not enough sailors did bought her in reason of the wings or the high costs to buy such an EPS-Laser).

Ciao
LooserLu
 
All politics aside, that thing looks mental!

I do think that anyone who sails it needs their head reading and should also see a nutritionist so they can get with the 12 stone cool dudes who sail proper lasers!
 
The builders and the class itself brought this on . They first introduced the concept that lasers should have multiple "one for each of you" rigs when the M rig was built.
The class and builders have been bent on self destruction by division since the earliest says. etc etc...


I want my piece of the greed pie!!!

:D Couldn't agree more. People can do whatever they like with a laser hull mast and boom, and often do, but a standard laser can be sailed in quite a range of wind strengths and body weights with a little effort. It is an actual class afterall: If you weigh more, why not move to finn for olympic progression, or one of a trillion other designs in the world of dinghies if you're a non-competitive sailer. If you weigh less, have you considered a starling?:D

Back in the day, a guy wrapped two or three turns of his laser sail round the mast, and reefed it that way. It was also good for beginners to gain some confidence in conditions that seemed windy to them. Ok, so the cunningham was inoperable and the sail wasn't the same shape on each tack, but in 35 knots all you had to do was hold on. At least it made use of the same sail size.

(In the generous mood I am in today I would like to proclaim that radial sailors are ok. I don't know any, but I'm sure they're wonderful people.:D )


As for the 8.1 rig

...amazing performance that would suit anyone over 90Kg...

At 81kg, I look big in the cockpit of a laser. It's only a little boat.

...tests have shown that the boat can be righted within 3 mins...

My own tests have shown that 3mins of swimming makes you somewhat uncompetitive. Of course, if everyone is swimming for 3mins, who would notice?
 
wow... that just looks absolutely... bezerk! heh heh I dunno if you'd get *me* on one of those... yet...! ;) I'm happy being about 92-ish kgs with my standard rig at the moment, thanks all the same! [laughs]
 
More power to the Rooster folks for bringing this to market. I hope that they build enough sails and get data to open the discussion for the Laser class sails (again). If he can produce longer lasting sails for about the same price, then maybe that data can be rolled into the Laser class.

And I bet this would be a fun config to sail in places where it's light most of the year.
 
Cool!
I am glad they designed this. Some experimentation can never hurt the class! It might generate some new ideas for the standard laser. I already wish that the standard sail looked as good as this one.
G
 
Visited the Dinghy show in London this weekend where the 8.1 rig was on display at the Rooster stand. The sail and upper mast section (carbon fibre) both looked of very high quality.
 
I noticed the price is listed in pounds. Does that equate to about $800.00 USD for both the top section and sail?
 
Does anyone think a "fat boy" class for the Laser has a better chance of luring Finn sailors back to a Laser than the Finn has of luring big Laser sailors to their class? The Laser is way more popular and far less costly than the Finn.
 
Visited the Dinghy show in London this weekend where the 8.1 rig was on display at the Rooster stand. The sail and upper mast section (carbon fibre) both looked of very high quality.

Looking at the pic and the printed words on the rooster site, there is no different upper section

The 8.1 use a much taller, aluminum lower section.. Doubtful you could build a carbon section and sell it with the sail for the price Rooster has it listed...
 
I noticed the price is listed in pounds. Does that equate to about $800.00 USD for both the top section and sail?

roughly, yes, (it's a lower section though)

It would be much less if the pieces were sourced in the US - probably between $400-$500 US
 
Does anyone think a "fat boy" class for the Laser has a better chance of luring Finn sailors back to a Laser than the Finn has of luring big Laser sailors to their class? The Laser is way more popular and far less costly than the Finn.

We are talking about pretty small numbers. I'd guess the over 200lbs folks account for less then 10% of the fleet at any regatta.

Not sure what you mean by a fat boy class - do you mean a bigger rig, or ahem, weight divisions ?

The Finn population is small and very tightly grouped in small pockets around the country. As long as the groups keep going, I wouldn't expect current Finn sailors to dump their boats for a new, but unknown class.
 
The rig is designed for the larger person ergo "Fat boy", (I can say it cause I are one.) I struggle to get below 200 lbs. If I had the choice to spend $800.00 and stay in the Laser I would do that no question over dropping $10,000.00 for a used Finn where I'd have to drive 100's of miles to race anyone. We have multiple rigs for the "little people" why not one for the larger sailor? Big people need love too!
 
The rig is designed for the larger person ergo "Fat boy", (I can say it cause I are one.) I struggle to get below 200 lbs. If I had the choice to spend $800.00 and stay in the Laser I would do that no question over dropping $10,000.00 for a used Finn where I'd have to drive 100's of miles to race anyone. We have multiple rigs for the "little people" why not one for the larger sailor? Big people need love too!

I too am a fat boy. There a few Finns at my club, but I'm not about to drop the money to buy another boat. A Rooster big rig could be a fun toy for light days.

But I am really interested in how this sail design works out. I remember the last time a sail trial was held last decade and went nowhere.
 
Looking at the pic and the printed words on the rooster site, there is no different upper section

The 8.1 use a much taller, aluminum lower section.. Doubtful you could build a carbon section and sell it with the sail for the price Rooster has it listed...

My mistake, the Rooster site does specify an aluminium lower section, I just assumed the carbon fibre top section lying on the deck of the 8.1 rigged boat was part of the 8.1 rig, too good to be true for the price I suppose.
 
We are talking about pretty small numbers. I'd guess the over 200lbs folks account for less then 10% of the fleet at any regatta.


In our local fleet there are at least ten guys who weigh over 220. We generaly don't take Laser racing very seriously because at 220 the boat simply does not perform as well as when the skipper weighs under 200.

There are a ton of us who are way too big for Lasers and we have to sail other boats when we want to race seriously.

The lack of a decent popular boat for big guys is the only reason big guys don't race in large numbers in singlehanded boats.

Personally, I am glad the big rig concept is finally being floated out there.

If the Rooster rig takes off. I am certain the builders will invent their own and make it the class legal builder supplied rig.
 
... I just assumed the carbon fibre top section lying on the deck ...

Perhaps it has been one of the prototypes for the Laser Radial.

In my opinion it would make sense to add this upper section, made of carbon, to such a rig in strong winds, because like for the Radial it allows to open the leech at the top of the Sail very effective. Perhaps this carbo upper mast section has been there, exact to discuss this aspect, I'm not sure.

Does any one know, how the actual standing of tests are for the carbon upper mast of the Laser Radial? We didn't heard here something about it for months.

P.S.: One point I have to correct at my reply somewhere above at this thread. I mentioned the mast step of the Byte, but for real, the mast step of the Megabyte has this reinforced HDPE-maststep-technology, sorry for not being exact in that point of discussion.

Ciao
LooserLu
 
In our local fleet there are at least ten guys who weigh over 220. .

Everything's bigger in Texas.
cheers2.gif
 
Steve Cockerill's comments on Y&Y forum...

http://www.yachtsandyachting.com/Forum/for...;PN=1&TPN=3

"Great to hear the general positive feeling for the Rooster 8.1. I am sure it will not take sailors from the Phantom type fleets - but just might encourage some back to sailing with a grin on their face.

I thought I should give you some background to the PY debate.

In testing last week as Stokes Bay - I was pulling out 3 mins per lap in 4-5 knts. Each latp took about 20 mins. I took 3 mins out of the contender in the fist 30 mins. There was a huge windshift of the last beat - knocking my lead down to just 3 mins in 60 mins. But I was still grining.

Further testing on Wednesday against a very competitive Laser sailor, Ian Morgan (actually the guy who had most to do with the Design) (he's Rooster's Latest Assett - so we are now officially a sailmaker too!) Anyway - in about 10 knts upwind The 8.1 was 5 secs faster in 3 mins - on a reach (I was picking the angle (cheat!)) the 8.1 was 15 secs faster in 3 mins and on a run - the 8.1 was 30 secs faster in 3 mins! Today in 20 knts, but wind with tide it was a bit harder work. Interestingly it was a quiet sail. No flappy flappy bit you get from the full rig - but at 79Kg and short enough to sail a radial - I would honestly say I was overpowered and found short taking up the shore in 20 knts and chop just a little physical. I guess I am glad really else it would be a direct competitor for a Laser style person. However, I pulled and passed lots of OCS sailors and finished moderately well in the fleet. The offwind legs were too short though (with the tide taking us down) I cruised past lots off wind - but gains downwind were reduced by the current upwind. I would have loved to see a 90Kg person upwind today! Everyone else who sailed the boat thought it was smoother than the standard rig, and were surprised at how well it handled. They did not want to give it back!

I think the sail will work even better inland where the handicap should come into its own. I think we have been rather conservative with our Handicap on reflection.

Some have said that the boat might not take the loads. We have said that it is for one person - and since the Laser is meant to be designed for up to two people (class rules permit) then one in an 8.1 should be fine. I have sailed lasers in 40 knts and pitch poled with two people in it! I do not think there is any real boat problems.

We are open to a new rudder idea - we can definitely get a new blade made for the rudder stock - but I am keen to make the Rooster 8.1 class affordable - so we will make that development an option rather than a must have. Generally the rudder is more neutral than normal - although one sailor test sailed it today did not use enough Cunningham and he found the rudder heavy. We are also developing a carbon top mast - just a never break it type - that might lighten the rig slightly for downwind turns. Again - I have no intension of making it compulsory - and we definitely are keen to make them affordable.

You can all get a chance to take a look at the 8.1 at the Ali Pali Dinghy Show. Rooster Sailing have two stands - the larger being C35 - just under the Rose Window. It is promising to be an interesting affair.

Happy Sailing!"
 
I like it. I weigh 200 and live in a light-air venue. We buzz off 100 races / year-- pretty good considering our short season-- and frequently have 'drifter' conditions.

I'll order one up immediately if it becomes 'legit.' Somebody mentioned a carbon (illegal?) top section. what's the story on that ?
 
Hi chaps,

last weekend, here in London, we had the Dinghy Show last weeknd and the 8.1 rig was on display at the Rooster stand. No detailed photos I am afraid, but I can tell you it looks BIG!

First time you see it, you think that the luff is wrong. It looks too baggy. We had to sheet-in and pull the kicker in order to get the sail flat. It looks good. I don't know if it will "take off" as a class, but I like the idea of having an alternative since I am over 100kg that's more than 200lb.

I would like to say that the sail seems better than the Laser endorsed ones and the leech is Mylar which means that it will last twice as long. On top of that you can buy a better, bugger sail and a bigger bottom section for £350 GBP. Laser sell you a sail only for £420 GBP. This shows you the money they make.

At the stand they had a top section, UNTESTED, made of carbon fibre. Now, they said that it was just a first prototype which hadn't been tested yet. So Steve Cockerill is working on a carbon top mast section, but it might take a while.
 
The dacron/mylar laminate in the leech with a dacron front end scares me a little bit from a long term shape issue. Any laminate with mylar is going to shrink over time, and this shrinkage is going to show up at the transition between the all dacron and the dacron/mylar laminate as some ugly vertical wrinkles. This usually shows up anywhere from 6 to 12 months after the sail has been in the customer's hands, more so if the sail is left in a hot climate, such as the inside of a car.

Just something to be aware of down the road.
 
Dividing up the fleet hasn't hurt the class too much here in Australia. The 04/05 and 05/06 national titles were the biggest ever, because now people less than 75kg or so can be competitive.

Of interest, Brett Bayer was 194lb the first regatta I raced him in, and in light/moderate winds he beat Michael Blackburn overall. He didn't feel that being nearly 200lb really hurt him much at all.
 
The dacron/mylar laminate in the leech with a dacron front end scares me a little bit from a long term shape issue. Any laminate with mylar is going to shrink over time, and this shrinkage is going to show up at the transition between the all dacron and the dacron/mylar laminate as some ugly vertical wrinkles. This usually shows up anywhere from 6 to 12 months after the sail has been in the customer's hands, more so if the sail is left in a hot climate, such as the inside of a car.

Just something to be aware of down the road.

I guess that the idea is that the shrinking material + the stretching of the leech equals zero. The main reason for a laser sail losing its shape is the stretching of the leech. This construction tries to eliminate that.
If it works: time will tell.

G
 

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