Class Politics New sail design - Keep the Dream Alive!

Folks, sorry to dredge this subject up again, but in my experience, rule changes that benefit the builders' bottom line get through to a vote by the members, and those that don't seem to disappear.

Reason I know this is because there WAS a sail designed and a prototype tested by me, Fred and Eric Faust among others some time around 1999 - 2000. Can't remember. Anyway, it had (surprise, surprise!) bigger reinforcing patches, better batten pockets, a redesigned sleeve and was modified slightly to account for the mast joint - all specifically aimed at improving the competitive life of the sail.

A point that was missed in the last thread about this is - the 3.8 oz. dacron we are stuck with using for Laser sails (because using a better, stronger, more modern sailcloth would necessitate a whole new mast, among other changes) is going to determine the competitive life of Laser sails no matter how they are cut or reinforced.

If you went to every sailmaker, and said "design us the most durable, best sail you can using 3.8oz dacron and our bendy, wierd 2-piece aluminum mast" a lot of those guys would smile and shrug and walk away.

What the Class needs is a new rule limiting the number of sails each sailor may purchase. Many OD classes have this, specifically to keep the playing field level for those who can't afford to buy new sails for every regatta. Isn't this what the Laser Class is all about?

Anyway, I just wanted to suggest this as an alternate idea, make my point about the limitations of the cloth, and REMIND YOU that you need to keep this subject alive, and keep after your Exec to move it through to a vote. Then VOTE FOR IT!
 
I like the way you're thinking!

Let's say we consider a 1 sail per year rule. Some may argue. "What about the guy that sails 12 big events a year compared to the guy that sails 4?"

I'd argue the guy with more events under his/her belt will have an advantage every time. There is no substitute for experience.
 
Don't give up too easily on an improved sail! A status report on the two prototypes (one Hyde, one North) currently being tested is due at the Technical and Measurement Committee meeting next month and there should be a report available shortly after. (And I should note that the Hyde prototype did not use the standard 3.8 oz dacron...)

So, my initial reaction to a sail limitation proposal would be to continue to hope that builders/sailmakers can come up with a better quality, more durable sail that doesn't change the game of Laser sailing - which I think is the best solution. Toward that end, I look forward to the report next month and hope that we can report positive results at that time!

Still, I think it is well worth the time to discuss the concept of a sail limitation rule as either an alternative or even as an augmentation. I have a little bit of experience in other classes that have sail limitation rules (Etchells, J105, Melges24, Shields, etc.) and, in my opinion, I think sail limitations work very well in local fleets but start to become more difficult to fairly administer at the national or international levels. Some concerns that I can think of that start to surface at the national and/or international levels:

1) How do you not penalize sailors by virtue of being more active? By this I mean sailors who do more than race just in their local fleet, but also travel to regional, national, or even international events. In Lasers there is a tremendous discrepancy in the amount of sailing done by people at any level and a sail limitation rule needs to recognize this. On the other hand, if the class allows more than one sail to be purchased in a year, at what number do you draw the line where the sail limitation benefit becomes negligible? (And recognize that the answer to this question depends on your activity level!)

2) Should consideration be given to the typical sailing conditions of the home waters of a sailor? Shouldn't a sailor from a typically breezy venue (hey! that's me!!) be allowed to purchase "more" sails to compensate for the more extreme conditions they will encounter in their local fleet regattas? How do you administer this?

3) In many of the other top international classes, the way to get around the sail limitation rule is to own more than one boat, and then to carefully manage to boat/sail programs for each. This goes on in the Farr 40's, J105's, Etchells, Melges 24's, etc. I bet we all know a few Laser sailors who already have more than one boat, so its not so much of a hypothetical! I even know one guy who has acquired his own fleet of boats so that he can get more people out sailing in his club's beercan races!

In addition to the above,
4) How do you administer a sail limitation system in such a large class?
 
Tracy, what cloth did Hyde use for their prototype? Is it something with similar characteristics to the 3.8 oz. ?

I do strongly approve of any effort to make a better, more durable Laser sail provided it doesn't necessitate a new mast, or other major changes. If Hyde used different cloth, it's going to take some long-term testing to be sure of this, right?

I just don't think any sail (especially if it's made with the 3.8 cloth) is going to prevent the top sailors from buying new sails for every big event. IF they have the money, it's worth it to them for the psych value alone. That crackly sound a new sail makes when it's beside you luffing on the start line?

Top sailors are also going to fly to Europe, Australia and the Worlds each year, where they will sail chartered boats. Presumably if a one-sail-per-year rule was in effect, they would charter the sail that goes with the boat, too. This would save wear and tear on their own sails at home on their two or three Lasers that they probably own. I know a few sailors who had one on each coast, in fact. Maybe more of the top sailors will find it necessary to own a fleet. Oh dear, it's going to be more expensive for them to campaign! I can't seem to muster much sympathy for them.

As for the sailor who routinely sails in heavier wind, like Tracy, well they'd have to plan pretty well and break out their one new sail at the critical moment for the most important regatta. In your local events, everybody else would be in the same boat (so to speak) very likely using their year-old sails. As long as it's the same for everybody, it does even the playing field quite effectively.

Administration? Dealers could date stamp each sail when it sells, and write in the sail number of the boat it goes to. Easy for them to send this data to the Class for oversight. Other classes do this already. (we have a Melges and a Flying Scot, both classes who limit sail purchases)

At big events, it's always a good idea for a Class rep to be there checking, so yes, the date on the sail would be one more thing to look at.

In my experience, sailors don't cheat unless nobody's looking. It's the Class's job to make sure somebody is looking.
 
Top sailors are also going to fly to Europe, Australia and the Worlds each year, where they will sail chartered boats. Presumably if a one-sail-per-year rule was in effect, they would charter the sail that goes with the boat, too.

when you charter a boat, you bring your lines, tiller/extension, sometimes blades, and sail.
 
In my experience you can usually charter the sail as well. Those guys who REALLY want to use a newer sail would very likely pay the price to do that.

Point is, for the guys with money to "campaign" it's not going to make that much difference to limit sail purchases to one per year. They'll buy two or three boats, and they'll charter boats with new sails.

For the grass-roots sailor, the majority of Laser Class members, it will make a big difference to level the playing field. Everyone will treasure their newest sail and use the older ones for local sailing (like so many of us do now).

One-design sailing is supposed to be a test of the best sailors, with equal boats. That's "The Dream".

If there IS a way to gain an advantage from your equipment, it should be fixed if possible. While the new sail design is a good idea, it's not going to do that.
 
Tracy, what cloth did Hyde use for their prototype? Is it something with similar characteristics to the 3.8 oz. ?

I do strongly approve of any effort to make a better, more durable Laser sail provided it doesn't necessitate a new mast, or other major changes. If Hyde used different cloth, it's going to take some long-term testing to be sure of this, right?

This post (in this thread) has a picture of the Hyde prototype along with a link to the article that was in The Laser Sailor. Remember, the charge to the builders is "better quality, more durable but doesn't change the game" which means, among other things, the same mast.
 
IMHO about the whole sail thing, I wouldn't really mind if the sail only lasted one season if I didn't have to pay as much for it. Really we are paying premium price ($1000 in Aus) for what is essentially a sub standard product.
 
I like the look of the turbo sail but making it the same size (or at least for the same weight range sailor) would be an advantage or else you will automatically get the majority of sailors who are already in lasers offside.
 
I like the look of the Hyde sail. IMO using a thicker cloth does not significantly change the performance. The Intensity pattern sail is a heavier cloth and performs just as well as the standard sail if not better!

As lon as it is not too thick of course.
 
As far as limiting the number of sails, that would be practical in a smaller class where with one or two major events a year. However the Laser class, ignoring even Olympics-oriented events, has several major events per month all over the world. I think trying to track, manage, and enforce a limit on the number of sails purchased would be a logistical nightmare for the class.

To me it's kind of like the mandatory US Sailing measurement issue. It's hard enough to find volunteers to run the class and regattas. This would just be one more added burden.
 
As far as limiting the number of sails, that would be practical in a smaller class where with one or two major events a year. However the Laser class, ignoring even Olympics-oriented events, has several major events per month all over the world. I think trying to track, manage, and enforce a limit on the number of sails purchased would be a logistical nightmare for the class.

To me it's kind of like the mandatory US Sailing measurement issue. It's hard enough to find volunteers to run the class and regattas. This would just be one more added burden.


What if you put in an exemption for folks that are a part of the National Sailing Team for their representative country?

Clearly, those folks are in a much higher level of the game than the regular sailors.

I agree it's harder to manage, but some times you have to rely on folks being honest. Sure, some won't, but most will be.

Another way of managing this would be for the retailers to "stamp" sails on the date of sale with some type of class approved stamp. If a question were to come up about your sail then refer to the stamp.
 
Be careful what you wish for, you just might get it.

Take a fairly poor quality, low durability, low cost sail.

Take a tight class where, competition at the top of the fleet is really tough and the sailors are close together.

Add a sail purchase limit, say one-per-year.

Two possible outcomes come readily to mind

1. Placement at the top regattas starts being determined by who has managed their sail usage best and shows up with the least-worn sails.

2. Sailors start spending more time doing prepping and training, and start showing up at fewer "marginal" (e.g. regional, local) regattas, so as to minimize the wear on the sail that they're saving for top level competition.

I'd look with a very skeptical eye on any rule change that provides an inscentive for sailors not to sail.

I believe that you'll find that most classes that have sail purchase limits, do not also have a "builder supplied sail" requirement, so the sailors can go to their sailmakers to get the best compromize of speed and durability that meets their particular needs.

That being said, bring on the improved-durability-non-game-changing-sail. I saw the Hyde at this year's TISC regatta in June.
 
I don't think there would be incentive for sailors not to sail in regional or local events. They just might use their "second best" sail in regionals, and their 2-year old sail locally. A limit of one new sail per year doesn't mean you can only own one sail. If you bought a new boat and only had one brand-new sail, I'd suggest you'd be well advised to buy a couple of older sails to practice and race locally with, though.

At our club, we get the Scots and Melges owners (the two classes I sail now, both of which have sail purchase limits) together and agree to use our old sails for local events. A guy in our club who bought a new Melges actually went out and bought two used sets of sails so that he could race with us on Friday nights.

As far as the major events all over the world, the use of charter boats with a chartered sail to go with them solves this question.

Those high-caliber sailors who sail those regattas comprise only about 5% of your Laser Class members. The Class's rules should be written to keep the playing field level for the majority of the members.

That said, the higher quality, more durable sail would last a lot better through a year's use, so your year-old sail won't be nearly such a rag.

If the Class votes in the new sail design, AND implements a one-per-year limit on sail purchases, the whole face of laser racing will improve for everyone.

Except the builders, of course, who will whine and moan because they're not making nearly the profit they were before. At your expense.

Aw, shucks.
 
As far as the major events all over the world, the use of charter boats with a chartered sail to go with them solves this question.

Lainie, I'm afraid I also have to disagree with you on this one. While it is true that many years ago you could charter a boat at, for example, the Master Worlds complete with a sail, it is just not the case anymore. The only regattas I know of where you can charter a builder supplied boat with a sail are the Radial Women's Worlds and the Laser Senior Worlds... and if the builder's had their way you would not be able to do it there either.

The driving reason behind this is purely economic: the sail is then "used" and it lowers the ultimate re-sale value of the boat.

At many European events (and a few North American events), sailors often charter from private companies (e.g. SailFit does charters in Florida, SailCoach in Europe) and these are used boats. I'd shudder to think of what a charter sail on one of these boats would look like after a few regattas of use at that level!

Still, I agree that we're talking a small fraction of sailors and probably these people would just have a small fleet of Lasers so they could get around a sail limitation rule anyway... (like, for example, someone like Philippe Kahn does in the Melges 24 fleet ;) ).

At our club, we get the Scots and Melges owners (the two classes I sail now, both of which have sail purchase limits) together and agree to use our old sails for local events. A guy in our club who bought a new Melges actually went out and bought two used sets of sails so that he could race with us on Friday nights.

Aren't you offering the ideal solution here? Let the local fleets institute sail purchase rules if that is what they want to do? Its easy to administer, makes it fair for the people racing in that fleet, etc. Importantly, it doesn't handicap the person who also wants to be more active by racing at a higher level. They can have their local fleet sail and have as many other sails as they want for racing at the various championship events. Importantly, it does not penalize them simply for being more active.

In any case, I think I need to be convinced that we aren't looking at a solution in need of a problem... Maybe we should run a poll to see just how many sails TLF members purchase every year?
 
In any case, I think I need to be convinced that we aren't looking at a solution in need of a problem... Maybe we should run a poll to see just how many sails TLF members purchase every year?[/quote]

I just left a post under the sailing section regarding sails for junior sailors, as a parent purchasing 500$ sails so my kid can race a 4.7 in a class legal event, is way over the top. The price on a "club" sail is reasonable and though I can't get my son in class events with it, is great for getting him sailing and doing some limited racing in club events. So I will continue to buy 0 class legal sails at that price. I own at least 6 used legal full sails most of which are way past their prime but until my kid gains 60 lbs I can't send him out to race with those, (though he is a good swimmer and can right the boat single handed even with the full sail). If the "builders", as we refer to them, want to help us bring kids into the class the price of the 4.7 sail and mast section should really be looked at. IF the club sails can be sold at a profit for what they sell for then we know the builder's are making a killing on the class legal sails, they are entitled to some of that to maintain standards, but they should consider the effect on recruiting new juniors into the class. Clubs and districts should also look at programs to bring radial sails down to new sailor's as well.
 
Warning..Some people might read the following post and take it a tad too seriously>>>>>

Joke_Alert.png




as a parent purchasing 500$ sails so my kid can race a 4.7 in a class legal event, is way over the top.


I will listen to this whining about $500 pocket change as long as you are not:

1. buying new genoas for your keelboat

2. driving a car with fewer than 100,000 miles

3. living in a house that cost over $25,000

4. Working in the Financial world ...anywhere...Those jerks just stole $4000 from my pocket and I was gonna buy a new High Def. TV, fridge and lots and lots of pizza and drinks with that money

5. making over $20,000 a year

6. buying "nickle" candy bars for $1

7. buying "nickle" Cokes for $1

8. buying "15 cent" MacDonald's hamburgers for $1

9. buying "25 cent gas" for $4

10. paying 42 cents to mail a letter


When I went to Penn State, my bill for tuition room and board for my freshman year was $630. Should I send my kid to get a cheap diploma on line because the numbers are up and I don't comprehend inflation??

$500 is chump change...get over your 1950s price lists and buy your kid a decent sail.
 
I think its one thing on the other. Make a sail that will last 2 seasons of competeive racing OR bring in a sail limit.

My choice would be for the first one which is the most in line with keeping this old boat and rig attractive to new sailors and "modern".

A fully battended main would significantly reduce wear and hold its shape better but I would think that there may be issues with the mast. what about just somethign as simple as what Rooster has done with the 8.1 - A mylar leech is apparently suppose to reduce wear where it will start to flutter. Now I have never seen one of these sails other than pictures so I dont know whetehr this works or not but if it will get us through a full season of high performance racing or two seasons of club racing then it has bound to have advantages to everyone, not just the sail manufacturers and the laser brand.

my 0.02c
 
I just left a post under the sailing section regarding sails for junior sailors, as a parent purchasing 500$ sails so my kid can race a 4.7 in a class legal event, is way over the top. The price on a "club" sail is reasonable and though I can't get my son in class events with it, is great for getting him sailing and doing some limited racing in club events. So I will continue to buy 0 class legal sails at that price. I own at least 6 used legal full sails most of which are way past their prime but until my kid gains 60 lbs I can't send him out to race with those, (though he is a good swimmer and can right the boat single handed even with the full sail). If the "builders", as we refer to them, want to help us bring kids into the class the price of the 4.7 sail and mast section should really be looked at. IF the club sails can be sold at a profit for what they sell for then we know the builder's are making a killing on the class legal sails, they are entitled to some of that to maintain standards, but they should consider the effect on recruiting new juniors into the class. Clubs and districts should also look at programs to bring radial sails down to new sailor's as well.

Think about it though, if your son just went into 4.7 they have been sailing optis for years. Think about how much one of those racing sails cost, they were more than a brand new 4.7 sail. You are in fact saving money now.
 
The driving reason behind this is purely economic: the sail is then "used" and it lowers the ultimate re-sale value of the boat.

Still, I agree that we're talking a small fraction of sailors and probably these people would just have a small fleet of Lasers so they could get around a sail limitation rule anyway...

In any case, I think I need to be convinced that we aren't looking at a solution in need of a problem... Maybe we should run a poll to see just how many sails TLF members purchase every year?[/quote]

I can supply a problem for our solution pretty easily. Don't you think there are going to be people with a lot less disposable income for the next few years, given the current economic disaster we're facing?

Dad's going to have a lot more trouble finding $500 for his kid's sail next spring.

Too bad they don't supply charter sails any more. Are they selling those used charter boats as "new" too?


I honestly hope some local and District fleets get their heads together and start implementing their own sail purchase limits, because I think it will improve the whole game.
 
if your sail number matches your hull number as required by ILCA rules then having more than one hull and sharing the sail is not a valid skirt of the rule.


What if they just opened the building of sails up to other sailmakers? and have them have a sail royalty, just like lightnings J24's even opti's. Cost of sails down due to competition, quality up due to competition. royalties go to class ot builders or split.
 
Um, if you owned two boats, then you would get to buy two new sails per year - one for each boat.

THAT'S the skirt around sail purchase limiting rule for the rich, and dedicated amongst us.

I still think the new, more durable sail just makes the limiting rule work even better. There will always be guys willing to buy a little bit of performance or psych value that a new sail provides, and the rule would prevent that.
 
This thread is starting to morph off the main line and into a sail quality/price thread... and there are already a couple of those.

A key thing to remember on the current pricing of class legal sails is that its not the cost to produce the sail, nor the profit of any single hand in the supply chain but, rather, the number of hands in the chain. Intensity buys from a manufacturer and sells direct over the internet with little overhead. Class legal sails are built by larger sailmakers, who sell to the builders who sell to dealers, each with larger overheads than, I bet, what Intensity has.

Rats, now I am off topic.... and I've said all this before... sorry!
 
A fully battended main would significantly reduce wear and hold its shape better but I would think that there may be issues with the mast. what about just somethign as simple as what Rooster has done with the 8.1 - A mylar leech is apparently suppose to reduce wear where it will start to flutter. Now I have never seen one of these sails other than pictures so I dont know whetehr this works or not but if it will get us through a full season of high performance racing or two seasons of club racing then it has bound to have advantages to everyone, not just the sail manufacturers and the laser brand.
my 0.02c

As a very satified owner of a Rooster 8.1 that is now almost a year old I can say that the sail it still in very good condition. It has had an average season of wear already and is still in good shape, not stretched and no sign of leech flutter at all!

We all know that the genuine sails are a complete rip off but I don't accept SFB Lasers argument about hands in the chain being the explaination. Here in the uk a new sail costs around £400 then you need to buy battens and numbers taking it to around £450. As far as I can see there are only 2 hands in the chain.... the sailmaker and Laser Performance. Frequently I find that you can buy a class legal sail from a dealer slightly cheaper than buying it direct from Laser Performance (I live around 1 hour drive from Laser Mecca so they are my local part supplier). I tend to buy from Rooster who are around 4 hours drive (should I wish to collect) purely because they are generally cheaper and much more friendly (Steve C loves a chat on a Monday morning especially if the weekend was a good sailing one).

A lot of clubs in the UK are allowing people to use 'pattern' sails because it is recognised that the sails are horrendous for what you get.

I say roll on the development and (from what I have seen) I hope the Hyde design wins. It may mean that there is a disparity from the 'haves' and the 'have nots' for a short period of time but we had that when the new control lines came out. At a club level the use of a different cut of sail on a Laser is not really going to make a huge amount of difference, the cariation in skill level is much more apparent. I used to win club races in a 25 year old boat with an 3 year old sail and using the old control lines (because I did not change straight away).

So come on lets not even entertain this purchase limit, in practice it will not work (and bear in mind most SIs limit you to using the same sail for a club series anyway unless you damage it) and instead vote for a more durable sail when the time comes. I am planning to join the UKLA when I know the vote is coming purely so I can cast that vote (for those who know me personally I am very critical of the way the UKLA conducts itself although they are getting better).
 
How many Laser sailors are really buying more than one sail per year? I bet it is only a couple of percent, and by and large those are the guys who are competing in a very different league to the rest of us regardless of the equipment they are using. Limiting sail purchases would just add a layer of bureaucracy to stop something that isn't really that much of a problem. Own up, how many sails have you bought this year?

For most of us, one sail a year is plenty. I normally buy one a year - in the first year it is my regatta sail (on average 40 races), in the second year it is my club racing sail (another 50 or so races), and in the third year it is my training sail. That seems like a pretty good return for $600 (Australian) to me - maybe $3 each time I go sailing? I chose the changeover point pretty carefully to coincide with the biggest regatta of the year, and have never in my life felt that someone else has beaten me in a race because their sail was better than mine.
 
This thread always was about sail quality vs. price. The sailors have felt for years that the sail is not a good value for the money.

Many sailors don't think the sail is competitive after more than a few regattas. They buy two or three sails per year - IF they can afford it. This gives them an advantage over the guy who CAN'T afford it.

Most sailors also think that the sail is a rag even when it's brand new. But at least because they all come from the two sailmakers, and are cut the same, everyone sails with the (approx.) same new rag. That's the beauty of having the builders produce the sails.

Remember, the whole premise of one-design sailing is to keep the boats as even as possible. That's "the dream". You really don't want anyone to be able to gain any advantage from any piece of their equipment (except their own bodies, of course).

Why don't they simply sell the sails online like Intensity does, and pass the savings on dealer markup on to the sailors? I guess this would eventually put some of their dealers out of business, but y'know, some boat builders have gone that way - selling direct - to keep costs of their product in line.

As for Tony in Oz, you are already doing exactly what I envision people would do if there were a limit on sail purchases. You're satisfied with your sail's performance over the year's use, but some sailors are not.

I'd suggest you walk the boat park at the end of the first day of racing at the next regatta you attend. Talk to the guys who finished top ten in the fleet, and ask how many sails they buy each year. Betcha it's a bigger percentage than you thought - especially amongst Masters sailors (who can afford to buy performance when they don't have time to get it by fitness and practice).
 
Many sailors don't think the sail is competitive after more than a few regattas. They buy two or three sails per year - IF they can afford it. This gives them an advantage over the guy who CAN'T afford it.


Is someone able to say how many exact of this "many sailors" do buy 2 or 3 sail a year, in relationship to the rest of the Lasersailing world? The most sailors, I know here at my country (GER), are not even able to buy 1 Hyde-sail in 2 years.

F.e.: If I'd try to offer a totally new folded Hyde (without battens, telltales, sailnumbers) to Laserites here at GER for 647 US$ (450 €), no one would want to buy it. To the opposite: such a sail at the Laserstore (GER) here does cost 830 US$ (577 €) for non distict Association members and 763 US$ (92% of 577 €) for district Association members.

What is the advantage to buy a "Porsche-Cayenne-S" Laser sail for not-often racing Laserites, that probably end in the middle of the final race results?

Also, once again, the "OD"-idea of Kirby would be digged:
There was a sail change in the early years from Elvstroem (1st generation without and next generation with a window) to Haarstick, then internal a change of the sailcloth at Haarstick (to that "compucut" 3.2 oz sails) and again to the 3.8 oz sails from North and Hyde in ~1992.

Perhaps if "one" does permitt to the world: a new "Porsche-Cayenne-S" Laser sail, one may permitt PS Australia or PS Japan, too, to build Laserhulls with a durable HDPE-mastcollar/-step like it is built at this dinghy of Ian Bruce Industries "here" .

For me a "Porsche-Cayenne-S" sail not makes ANY sense personally to me at/on my pretty 2001er PSE Laser: If I would have compete in a race against you, dyzzypyxxy or/and SFBayLaser, and you both would sail such a nice-looking "vintage"-Laser, built in 1978 with a "1st generation"-Haarstick Standard sail and wodden tiller, you definitely already would reach the finish-line, meanwhile I would not have even reached the Leeward mark the 1st time. ... ;) ;)

If I would be such a pro-Laserite like Simon G. of GER, yes, I would loooove such a new sail. My sponsor sure does pay the bill for me, no problem. And in that case: When may I get it at my Laserdealer, I hope early enough to be delivered by Santa Claus?

Good winds
LooserLu
 
---snip---
A point that was missed in the last thread about this is - the 3.8 oz. dacron we are stuck with using for Laser sails (because using a better, stronger, more modern sailcloth would necessitate a whole new mast, among other changes) is going to determine the competitive life of Laser sails no matter how they are cut or reinforced.
---snip---

That statement just isn't correct - It is possible to build the laser sail out of materials other then 3.8 w/o having to resdesign anything else (spars, fittings etc) Most of the non-class approved sails are made from dacron other then 3.8 (which is hard to get btw since it's only being used for laser sails now and produced in such small quantity)

http://www.laserforum.org/showpost.php?p=38243&postcount=110 shows a proto sail made from a mylar/dac laminate a few years ago. Looked good on the Laser mast. I've seen a few more since then made from other styles of dacron that also looked good (and with different patch sizes, tweaked luff sleeves, batten pocket reinforcing on the inboard ends etc)

I've also seen a few prototypes made from the existing 3.8 with better (larger) reinforcements etc that in theory should last longer.
 
is it just me or did the new hyde prtotype look alot like a byte sail. it is partially because of the radial cup and windown tho. a radial cut would help alot i believe
 
My two beefs with the current sail.
1. luff sleeve wears out.
2. leach stretches out.

You can repair the sleeve, but you shouldn't have to do that for a while. My sail is 4 years old and the sleeve is fine for club and open events in the area.

Can't fix the leach. How about a leach cord? you could make the sail last a bit longer then without making everyone's year old sail instantly obsolete.
 
As for Tony in Oz, you are already doing exactly what I envision people would do if there were a limit on sail purchases. You're satisfied with your sail's performance over the year's use, but some sailors are not.

I'd suggest you walk the boat park at the end of the first day of racing at the next regatta you attend. Talk to the guys who finished top ten in the fleet, and ask how many sails they buy each year. Betcha it's a bigger percentage than you thought - especially amongst Masters sailors (who can afford to buy performance when they don't have time to get it by fitness and practice).

I race every week against some of the top Masters sailors in the world and have a pretty good idea how many sails they buy. One, maybe two if they are doing the Worlds that year. One notable case who buys other people's two year old discards and proceeds to beat everyone else anyway. The only new sail he has bought for the last 15 years, he used to get a podium place at Terrigal.

I'm sure there are some out there who are caught in the vicious circle of blaming their two regatta old sail for their poor performance and throw money away to try and solve the problem, but by and large the top ten aren't deluding themselves about the causes when they don't do well. If the mid fleet sailors think they are getting beaten because the boats at the front have newer sails then they need to re-think, or stay they will stay mid fleet forever.

The problem with a sail limiting rule is that it wouldn't take into account the huge disparity between sailor's time on the water, and the huge disparity in sailor's expectations of their equipment. If we had a rule that forced Tom Slingsby and Andrew Campbell (who sail around 2000 hours a year) to be limited to the same number of sails as the guy who sails once a week in summer and rarely ventures from his own club (maybe 50 hours a year), then it would be a bad rule. There are a thousands of different sailors between those two extremes. If you tried to take those disparities into account the rule would be too complex, difficult to manage, and open to manipulation.

Ultimately, what problem would the rule be attempting to solve? It does sound like a solution looking for a problem to me, to quote whoever said that earlier in the thread.

Whether the sails can be made more durable for the same money and performance is a different question - of course they can, and it sounds like the investigations are underway (again). Whether there is too much mark up on sails and too many hands in the supply chain is another question. But it's just supply and demand, just like any other commodity. If you don't like the price of sails, don't buy them. If enough people do that, the price will drop. But don't waste breath complaining to the manufacturers that they charge too much - they charge what the market is willing to pay. They're in the business to make a profit, not to subsidise our sailing. If we keep demanding, they'll keep supplying.

Until recently, new sails in Australia were over $1000. Everyone started buying their sails directly from the US, and depending on the exchange rate were paying around $600 a sail. Now the Australian manufacturer has dropped the price of locally bought sails to $600 - that's a huge drop, and you can be sure they are still making money at that price. The only reason the sails were $1000 until then is because that is what people were willing to pay. Simple economics.
 
Just another post to emphasize that the initial topic of this thread is a solution in search of a problem (SFBayLaser said it first). The previous post (TonyB) describes my observations of the local scene where I sail quite well. Therefore, I won't repeat.
In conclusion, let's not go someplace where we have no good reason going.
 
If a new sail does come out. I hope I can still fold it, which is a plus for Dacron, and fit it into the blade bag or duffle bag. Rolling a sail in an 8' tube would be a hassle, especially for those who travel by plane to the Coasts and charter/borrow hulls/spars.
 
What kind of timeframe are we talking about for any decision about a new sail or is this still a bit of a pipe dream?

Just thinking about when I will purchase a new sail....
 
go buy a sail this wont happen for a while if ever. this is one thing the class should have done with the release of the radial and their sail design. hopefully we can catch up on design and use a better sail design but im really not expecting too much
 

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