New Rudder Proposal

Bradley

Admin/Operations
Staff member
All current registered members of the Sunfish Class are encouraged to participate in the rudder survey. More information can be found here. The class has also posted an official survey here.

Please discuss. Feel free to start additional threads to address more specific issues with the proposed change.
 
I just made a rudder from a scrap San Juan 21 rudder.

The rudder's leading edge is air foiled shaped or tear dropped..

I've only used it once but was highly impressed with the responce of it..

I wish I had more experience to be able to add my comparative advice between old styles and new ones.


How much do the the rudders weight? Mine is fiberglass and is pretty heavy, more than the old wooden one..

DSCN3775.jpg
 
To me the curent rudder is fine. It's the mounting position that needs revision. Make the rudder position vertical instead of the trailing fish tail.
 
This is my responce to an email where Chris Williams requested comments on
a new design for the rudder in order to "reduce weather helm" as the
primary benefit of the new design.

8/24/2009

Chris,

I am shocked that those proposing a new rudder to "reduce weather helm" are
so ignorant of basic marine design and the advantage of the lateen rig with
an
adjustable goose neck. Even more misleading is the notion that a rudder could
reduce weather helm. If a boat is out of balance, it will remain so until the
center of effort of the hull and blade configuration is changed. The new
rudder
appears to make the center of effort of that blade move forward, which would
in fact
increase weather helm (all else being equal). I suspect the testers are
experiencing
a lighter pull on the tiller because the center of effort of the new design is
closer
to the pintle, thereby reducing the lever arm. Still, if you are dragging the
rudder
because of weather helm, you are still making the same correction regardless
of the
rudder design, you just don't feel it. Furthermore, even more disturbing is
the fact that
weather helm is not a problem when you know how and why the goose neck
adjustment works. (Unlike
the supposedly advanced Laser, the lateen rig allows you to move the sail
center of effort
forward as the wind increases and the center of effort on the sail moves aft,
creating the
turning force that is known as weather helm.) I have sailed in 35 knots of
wind with a very light helm and carrying the proper 4 degree of weather helm,
by simply moving the goose neck back to the point were the helm is just right
with a given amount of heel. Therefore, I don't understand the "advantage" of
the new design. I admit that I have not tested it but I also know that
weather helm is not a problem, and in any case is not a problem that a more
vertical blade will resolve.
I also have never experienced control problems with the old design. Finally,
the old
design has advantages despite its less than perfect hydrodynamic profile. It
does not pick
up weeds, its center of effort is back from the transom which makes turning
more responsive,
it is now made in plastic with a very nice cross section and polished finish,
and every body has
one making the boat's equipment inexpensive, universal and oh yes, one design.
In my view this is a bad idea with almost no upside. If it ain't broke ...
you know the rest.

Bill McLaughlin 77721
 
I have been messing around with my Laser this past week and I noticed that when the vertical rudder is not tied off it can take an exaggerated horizontal position. As we know, the Laser is a more tender boat than the Sunfish, so I think this is an illustration of the difference in rudder feel when in a vertical position or position like the current rudder.

I am for the new design, but I too am for proper rig adjustments and one design adherence FIRST. I believe the new rudder would be advantageous, but I would ask for an extreme adherence to the new design only, making the current rudder illegal in sanctioned events. Thus, every racer would need to modify their current rudder or buy the new design. Is $222 the cheapest it can be sold? I get so tired of the one design prices, when you can go to vendors and get class illegal mock designs of equipment for significantly less money but equal quality in my opinion.

CSHoffmann
 
Hi Shaun-
At this time, there is no way for the class to provide a better cost estimate than what we have. LP is not willing to invest money in developing the rudder until the class has made a decision about the direction we want to take. If we decide to move forward with the design, we can encourage LP to make it affordable, but the price is the manufactuers' decision. They are obviously a business and need to be make money to stay in business.

I honestly would love for the boat and its parts to be as cheap as possible. However, the Sunfish Class does not own the name Sunfish or the rights to the Sunfish design, the builder does. My understanding is that when a company sells a sunfish part clone, they are not legally supposed to call it a part for a Sunfish because it is a trademark violation. Similarly, although a boat that uses one of these parts might perform identical to yours, it is not a Sunfish. This really has nothing to do with our class rules.

While it is easy to be critical of the prices we pay, please remember that LP does a large amount to support the class and does listen to what we say. They are in constant communication with our officers. Each year they provide us with many giveaways at regattas. Most importantly, LP invests a large amount of money to provide new boats to our World Championship. It is highly unlikely that our World Championship would exist in its current form without their generous support.
Derek
 
Bill, I don’t know if we’ve met before but I want to point out where you and I agree and disagree. (Please see my posting under ‘Impact of Design Changes’).
I am shocked that those proposing a new rudder to "reduce weather helm" are so ignorant of basic marine design and the advantage of the lateen rig with an adjustable goose neck. Even more misleading is the notion that a rudder could reduce weather helm.
I think we might need to agree on what most people would call ‘weather helm’. For the average Joe, it would be the amount of force they have to apply to the tiller to counteract ‘weather helm’ to keep the boat flying straight. This can most definitely be changed by rudder/tiller design. You and I might be clear on this, but I’m not sure most people are.


The new rudder appears to make the center of effort of that blade move forward, which would in fact increase weather helm (all else being equal). I suspect the testers are experiencing a lighter pull on the tiller because the center of effort of the new design is closer to the pintle, thereby reducing the lever arm. Still, if you are dragging the Rudder because of weather helm, you are still making the same correction regardless of the rudder design, you just don't feel it.
I think you’re spot-on here. It also explains why many people who have tested the rudder are confused. They feel a feather touch on the tiller but the boat doesn’t seem to go faster. “What’s going on? Without all that ‘drag’, I should definitely be going faster.” Truth is, the drag is still there, it’s just easier to handle.


Furthermore, even more disturbing is the fact that weather helm is not a problem when you know how and why the goose neck adjustment works. (Unlike the supposedly advanced Laser, the lateen rig allows you to move the sail center of effort forward as the wind increases and the center of effort on the sail moves aft, creating the turning force that is known as weather helm.) I have sailed in 35 knots of wind with a very light helm and carrying the proper 4 degree of weather helm, by simply moving the goose neck back to the point were the helm is just right with a given amount of heel.
This notion is where you and I part ways. There is a definite limit to the effective use of various techniques we have available to maintain ‘balance’. You and I might be able to handle this, but many cannot. They are rapidly, severely, and unnecessarily penalized as the wind picks up. I submit to you that many of these folks are the ones we want to stick around for the future of our aging class membership. (Again, I will refer to my posting under ‘Impact of Design Changes’).


Therefore, I don't understand the "advantage" of the new design. I admit that I have not tested it but I also know that weather helm is not a problem, and in any case is not a problem that a more vertical blade will resolve.
You are not alone. I think many do not fully understand the current rudder problems, nor do they understand how or why the proposed new rudder addresses some of those problems. There is definitely a problem (maybe not for you and me), but claiming it doesn’t exist is not helping. The ‘problem’ is definitely corrected to a large degree by a more vertical blade.


I also have never experienced control problems with the old design.
Unlike in the previous paragraph, I submit that you do stand alone on this one.


Finally, the old design has advantages despite its less than perfect hydrodynamic profile. It does not pick up weeds, its center of effort is back from the transom which makes turning more responsive, it is now made in plastic with a very nice cross section and polished finish, and every body has one making the boat's equipment inexpensive, universal and oh yes, one design.
I concur with your current design advantages, except for the one about more responsive ‘turning’. On that one, you’re just flat wrong – hands down and no question. If you substitute ‘sculling’ for ‘turning’, I could agree. If you come the Lewes (assuming you are a Master), you can test the rudder yourself. We can talk, agree, or agree to disagree.
 
Hi all,

I am a recreational sailor without racing experience and no real dog in this fight. I don't sail in particularly seaweedy waters but I note that catching seaweed or grass is a downside of the new design. How much of an issue is this for folks in other parts of the country? Doesn't seem like a major issue, but I'm just curious.
 
I'd be every bit as concerned with seaweed on the dagger board, you won't see it but you'll sure as hell feel it. You can lift the dagger board to free the seaweed, but on a weather leg you best be quick. The current rudder with it's sloped leading edge should effectively rid itself of seaweed.
 
Great points by Bill on here, and elsewhere about the difference between actually reducing weather helm and the reduction of force required to hold the tiller. But I think it's actually moot.

What I mean by that is if you buy the argument that many (young) sailors try the 'Fish and bail after being overpowered, then I think what they are really driven away by is fear and exhaustion, not true performance issues. Assuming the argument makes sense, and we can keep those sailors around by helping them feel more in control of the boat with a new rudder, then I think it's the way to go.

It can be frightening to be overpowered in a Sunfish, especially if you are an inexperienced sailor. Yes, we should be teaching the importance of gooseneck/outhaul/sheet position, but if a young sailor needs two hands to hold the rudder in 15 knots of wind, they are not going to have much capacity to do anything more than hold on and hope they don't have to do that again.

I used the new rudder a few years ago in a big, 25+MPH wind at Newport and found it to be a much more enjoyable experience than with the old rudder. I was able to focus more on hiking and sheeting and that made me better.

Why not form a fund to help offset the cost of the new rudder for juniors? I'd be willing to pay toward something like that, if the rudder was approved. Plus if someone feels like they are being given a grant I'd imagine they would feel more of an obligation to stick with it.

Eric W
 
"...Why not form a fund to help offset the cost of the new rudder for juniors...?
One of the most frustrating experiences for a newbie is "getting into irons". It's especially frustrating as the wind picks up. :(

Anything done to the rudder to improve the frustrations of a newbie is OK with me. :)
 
Why not form a fund to help offset the cost of the new rudder for juniors?

Often times there are conditions put on grants that require the recipient to return the money if they are not adhered to. We could easily require that a sailor participate in X percent of their local series and/or sail in other regattas.
 
I just made a rudder from a scrap San Juan 21 rudder.

The rudder's leading edge is air foiled shaped or tear dropped..

I've only used it once but was highly impressed with the responce of it..

DSCN3775.jpg

Dude, that is one ugly-ass rudder and the tiller looks like some moldy driftwood.

Beyond esthetics (or lack of), it very much resembles the original rudder up to 1971 but appears to have a lower angle (more vertical) and possibly greater length and surface area, so I'm not suprised that you like it's performance.

But really, cover it up or put it out of it's misery and bury the poor thing.
 
I don't think that rudder came from a San Juan 21. Based on the mottled splotches, I think it came from an old rudder for Stars and Stripes that I left in a boatyard in San Diego.

Dennis
 
Bill, I don’t know if we’ve met before but I want to point out where you and I agree and disagree. (Please see my posting under ‘Impact of Design Changes’).

I think we might need to agree on what most people would call ‘weather helm’. For the average Joe, it would be the amount of force they have to apply to the tiller to counteract ‘weather helm’ to keep the boat flying straight. This can most definitely be changed by rudder/tiller design. You and I might be clear on this, but I’m not sure most people are.



I think you’re spot-on here. It also explains why many people who have tested the rudder are confused. They feel a feather touch on the tiller but the boat doesn’t seem to go faster. “What’s going on? Without all that ‘drag’, I should definitely be going faster.” Truth is, the drag is still there, it’s just easier to handle.



This notion is where you and I part ways. There is a definite limit to the effective use of various techniques we have available to maintain ‘balance’. You and I might be able to handle this, but many cannot. They are rapidly, severely, and unnecessarily penalized as the wind picks up. I submit to you that many of these folks are the ones we want to stick around for the future of our aging class membership. (Again, I will refer to my posting under ‘Impact of Design Changes’).



You are not alone. I think many do not fully understand the current rudder problems, nor do they understand how or why the proposed new rudder addresses some of those problems. There is definitely a problem (maybe not for you and me), but claiming it doesn’t exist is not helping. The ‘problem’ is definitely corrected to a large degree by a more vertical blade.



Unlike in the previous paragraph, I submit that you do stand alone on this one.



I concur with your current design advantages, except for the one about more responsive ‘turning’. On that one, you’re just flat wrong – hands down and no question. If you substitute ‘sculling’ for ‘turning’, I could agree. If you come the Lewes (assuming you are a Master), you can test the rudder yourself. We can talk, agree, or agree to disagree.

Tom, we have met but for one reason or another, have never had a chance to talk and
exchange pleasantries. Your performance in the Charlotte FL masters, which featured
very high winds impressed me. (you won in the Force 5-6 conditions) I remember trying to do a 720 following a port tack screw up and thinking, how am i supposed to get this boat around two times. That was a least one time when a better rudder would have helped. So I guess that my statement abount never having a control problem may have been a little too definite. However, during that series, the "sail controls" entirely corrected for weather helm, even in the first race when the RC called the racing off for the day.

Therefore, I think we are both on the same page. The racers with experience can handle high winds with the rudder we have for the most part. The advantage and disadvantage argument seems to turn on those who are less experienced or very
light in weight. Maybe we can look at it this way:

Experienced racers over 150 lbs. - Will probably see little need for a change because
they sail their boats at the proper heel in anything
up to force 5 and have learned to control their boats
when making turns. The annoyance of weeds in
lighter winds is a big advantage to the old rudder.
One design is good, so why introduce a change.

Light weight or less strong racers: Will probably favor the design because they find
themselves healed over from a puff, a turn or
a shift more often, and the new design will
provide control in this circumstance. But they
may not experience much better results if their
problem is in not generating enough hiking force
to overcome too much power in the rig. So the
racing experience may not improve as much as
the extra control suggests.

Students and neophytes : Any more control the better so the design makes the
sunfish more manageable. The student becomes
more confident and thus more likely to continue in
the class. (Queary: Is the SF with or without the
new rudder harder to control than say a Laser Radial?)

Pure recreational sailors that can
get around ok: : Probably don't care much because they are not racing
and can take it easy in the heavy stuff. Cost is more
important and will not get a new rudder for an old
boat and will not know the difference if the new rudder
comes on a new boat.

Jumping from another class to
the Sunfish. : New rudder is one more upgrade when buying a
used boat, so cost of entry is higher or more trouble.
At the club level the boat becomes less one design and
other boats become more attractive. (Laser)

So Tom, this has been a good exchange. I will be at Lewes and if it is heavy air, I would love to pop on the new rudder for a spin. I am sure that there is nothing wrong with the design (with the possible exception of the weed issue), but there is also a downside to change. To keep the one design idea you would have to insist on the new rudder at major events. This may discourage more sailors to join in and offset the idea that the new design may help retain existing racers sailors.

PS - The Gust Adjust idea may do more for the light weight racers than
the rudder. A quick change when the sea breeze fills in, will help keep them on their
feet.

Bill McLaughlin 77721
 
Just in from a reliable source (who was at the ISCA World Council mtg in Nassau/Bahamas):

The 'new' rudder proposal has been shelved.
 
True. I believe that the real death blow was actually dealt by LP at the Advisory Council meeting earlier this week. LP dropped the news that they would only produce the new rudder on the racing version of Sunfish production and leave the rudder on the recreation boat as it is.:confused: This is the worst possible option, and I don't know anybody in the class who supports that. Not even me. This would add yet another PERMANENT upgrade requirement for recreational boat owners who want to race.:mad: Had the change been approved for both versions, the problem would only be temporary.

Unless LP changes their postition, I will have nothing more to do with the new rudder.:eek: Better to do nothing at all, unfortunately.

I do feel for the majority of folks who had hoped for a more friendly and fun Sunfish.:( Recreation boat owners can always modify their existing rudders and achieve nearly the same effect, but then it might be hard to undo if they want to race.

I don't have the whole story yet, so stay tuned to the Sunfish forum and class website for additional and official news.

Additional information: After receiving LP's decision that they would produce the new rudder only on the racing version of Sunfish production, the Advisory Council recommended a trial period for modifying the current rudder (to a lower angle). This was also doomed to go nowhere, as modifying the rudders for a trial period only holds out the prospect that the modification may have to be reversed. Wood blades are easier, but I'm not too keen on modifying my new fibreglass blade on a trial basis.

The real sticking point, I now believe, is that a majority of countries have not had the necessary opportunity the try the new design first-hand. The World Council did not vote up or down on the new rudder design. No proposal on the new design was sent up from the Advisory Council. They voted down the trial period for modification of the current rudder as proposed by the Advisory Council, and I'm glad they did. The new rudder design really isn't going anywhere until enough prototype blades have been circulated to give key figures in non-US countries a chance to form an impression based up first-hand experience. This is the only way to generate the needed 'grass roots' support in both the Advisory Council and the World Council. No amout of 'talk' about what the blade does and does not do is going to change that need. In addition, unless LP changes their stance on producing the new rudder design on both racing and recreation versions of the Sunfish, I predict that the new rudder has no chance of getting through the Advisory Council much less the World Council.
 

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