New Radial cut Standard Sail in the works? New composite top mast?

Thread starter #1
Hi all Ive heard that a new Standard sail is in the works and a new carbon top section ?? That´s gonna be expensive man!! Will those changes come into action soon??.
 

Wavedancer

Upside down?
Staff member
#2
Sometime after the Olympics is the prediction. But it's no done deal; other proposed changes in the sail/mast setup haven't materialized for various reasons. Remember the composite top for the Radial? Ultimately, it didn't make the grade.

BTW, in my opinion, rushing into new parts isn't really such a great idea unless you have money to burn.
 

jeffers

Active Member
#3
I had heard that the composite/carbon top section had been abandoned as they could not make it work with the current mast design. The issue seems to be with the 'pressure' point that is evident when the top section exits the lower mast.

As for the new 'standard' sail. This has been in development for around 2 years now, early pictures showed a very nice effort from Hyde (which was radial cut) and a bodge job from North (which was the same as the current cut but with more panels in it). Either way we are unlikely to hear much more about it until next year as that will be the end of the current Olympic cycle.
 
#4
If they bring in a carbon top section surely that defeats the point of it being a one design class, because not everyone will be able to afford that making it unfair ?
 
#5
yeah or the carbon mast top section will not be class aproved until enough people have it that its mandatory for a race, and lets face it sailing is a rich man's sport
 
#6
I like how you sail radial cut standard sail, either you are saying that the sails are going to be cut radially as in they are made in the shape they fly in. or you are referring to a radial standard in which case that makes no sense because a radial and standard rig are two different boats according to sail size
 

AlanD

Former ISAF Laser Measurer
#8
From memory, the ILCA class members voted for the Carbon top section for the radials about 5 years ago, early in it's development. It's development has been on again / off again multiple times during that period, being shelved each time the problems get to big.
 

AlanD

Former ISAF Laser Measurer
#9
As for the radial cut standard rig, whilst my guess is that it won't be released until after the Olympics, I suspect the current issues between the builders have impacted as well.
 
#10
I mailed the tech dept of the international laserclass. This is their answer: We are awaiting approval from some of the members of the Laser agreement to approve its release. ILCA have done everything to encourage cooperation on this and we are hopeful that agreement will be reached soon. Having said that, it is difficult to predict when that will occur. (mailed September, 16)

So we all have to be patient. My guess: after the Olympics.
 

torrid

Just sailing
#11
I mailed the tech dept of the international laserclass. This is their answer: We are awaiting approval from some of the members of the Laser agreement to approve its release. ILCA have done everything to encourage cooperation on this and we are hopeful that agreement will be reached soon. Having said that, it is difficult to predict when that will occur. (mailed September, 16)

So we all have to be patient. My guess: after the Olympics.
Sounds like they were referring more to the fundamental rule change drama than a new sail design.
 
#14
If they bring in a carbon top section surely that defeats the point of it being a one design class, because not everyone will be able to afford that making it unfair ?
On day 2 of a windy regatta out here in SF -- and I have to imagine anywhere else where it blows really hard -- you'll see folks straightening their bent upper sections against a fencepost. It's not uncommon to break upper mast sections on a windy day, especially downwind in a capsize to windward. And when you break the section you rip a sail as well.

I carry two upper sections and two sails to every regatta; good thing, too: last month I drove 6 hours to a regatta and broke my upper section in the first race. Without the spares, it would've been 6 hours back home and no more sailing. :(

... sure, the new spar will be more expensive than an aluminum one. But if it breaks less often you save the cost of an upper section and a sail, which in the long run means it will be cheaper. Same goes for the sail: if they can build one that doesn't blow out after half a season of use, I'll gladly pay more in the short run to save in the long run.
 

jeffers

Active Member
#16
Reading that article is looks like the 'radial cut' full size sail is the one that has been taken forward. I am pleased as the North 'effort' looked like someone had done it in their tea break and just made the exisiting panels smaller.

The change to a heavier cloth is interesting, you may need a more flxible rig to compensate for this.

Time will tell.

Whatever happens there will be a period of short term pain as the new sails (and top section) are introduced, this is unavoidable but the class will br stronger for it and, as long as the new sail is as good as it is reputed to be and priced correctly, then the debate for 'replica' or 'training' sails will be put to bed.

I am not so sure on the composite top section though, I would need to see more details. Composite implies that it may not be carbon. I am pretty sure they are still having breakage issues though. You will probably find that most bent top sections have been caused by a heavy capsize or 3 and not as a result of pulling the controls on too hard.

I recently 'end for ended' my top section (after straightening it Fred) and have used it in some pretty heavy weather and it has stayed straight so perhaps then 'bendy' top sections are more as a result of the tube not being quite the right specification? The comments about bent top section do tend to come more from the NA side of things than the UK or Australian. Perhaps others from those areas would care to comment?
 
#17
The carbon top section was already done yes. It is not class legal against normal class' for obvious reasons, but as someone said at the top, it has had issues with a bad pressure point and is very available to snapping. I don't believe the carbon top section is coming, but the radial cut standard sail is, buy that shit, its gonna be fast!
 
#18
Reading that article is looks like the 'radial cut' full size sail is the one that has been taken forward. I am pleased as the North 'effort' looked like someone had done it in their tea break and just made the exisiting panels smaller.
Both North and Hyde made various (5 or 6) models for the class to eval, with direction from the class committee IIRC. North also had radial designs, very similar to the one from Hyde (there aren't that many ways to create panel layouts that make sense for unstayed rigs) Someone(s) within the class determined which two sails to eval, and it makes sense to me to try one of each panel orientation as opposed to the same.. In the end, whichever sailmakers end up building sails, they will both build from the same design anyway... So, please don't think that crosscut was the best North could do, it was just one that was chosen for further eval.

The change to a heavier cloth is interesting, you may need a more flxible rig to compensate for this.
While cloth weight plays a role, in theory, of how much stretch is in the material, it's just one factor of a few (tightness of the weave, amount of crimp, finish applied are others). The bigger factor though is panel orientation. It's fairly easy to control how much stretch you want/need. Orient the cloth away from the fill or warp axis and you have a range of stretch to work with.
 
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