Class Politics New mainsheet blocks?

SFBayLaser

Member
As some of you know, the builders have been working with Harken on a proposal to replace the current boom and traveler blocks. The new blocks would have ball bearing sheaves and have the same look as Harken's carbo air blocks. These would not be off the shelf blocks, they would be custom for the Laser: the block at the end of the boom will have the ability to rotate slightly so as to not have the bail cut into it like with the current block, the traveller blocks would be one unit with a universal that would not require taping, etc. Finally, they would be "builder supplied" and have the Laser logo engraved on them.

Prototypes of these blocks have made their way around the world. I've resisted posting pictures because these are working prototypes and don't have the final look that the production blocks will have, so don't want people to get the wrong impression of what they will look like in the end. But I can post pictures if people think seeing working prototypes will help them form an opinion, though you can check out your favorite online marine supplier to get a feeling for the basic concept. I can say that they will really look cool on the boat...

These blocks run much more freely than the current blocks and any sailor using them will notice the difference (I can certainly vouch for this too!). Other than that, they have been designed to match the dimensions of the current block so should behave the same in all other ways.

Applying the general sorts of guidelines to proposals like this (Does it change the sailing characterisitcs of the boat? Does is solve a problem that needs fixing? Do the sailors want it? Will it be generally available worldwide at reasonable cost? etc.) results in the following basic pro/con type of arguments...

Some arguments for include:
1) Modern carbo airblocks to replace blocks which were outdated when Lasers went into production,
2) Doesn't change the characteristics of the boat (or does it? see below),
3) Harken products readily available worldwide at reasonable prices,
4) Sailors want better blocks,
5) etc.

Some arguments against:
1) Main sheet can run much more freely, perhaps is an advantage in light air, and may change the game?
2) Current blocks are readily available worldwide at reasonable prices, probably more so than Harken blocks?
3) Sailors don't really want to change the blocks?

This will be discussed at the upcoming World Council meeting next month in Terrigal. It would be really interesting to get some feedback from The Laser Forum to see if sailors, in general, feel strongly one way or the other.

Tracy
 
I am very much in favor of the upgrade/change. I haven't liked these blocks since I first them in the '70s.

I would also guess the majority on this forum are in favor of new blocks.
 
I think it would be a vast improvement and would be totally in favor of it.

The concern will be this: Harken has done a fantastic job of delivering high quality products for reasonable prices, do those prices triple when the Laser logo is put on them? Probably. Only time will tell.
 
The following would be good standard for any proposal involving new blocks...

The blocks MUST cost THE SAILORS less money and MUST BE more readily available than the current blocks.

The concept of a new block set which might have a competitive advantage for those who purchase them is unacceptable unless the above criteria are met.

Note:
The advantage obtained with new blocks would not come from ball bearings or even from whether the blocks wear.

The advantage would come if the blocks would allow a sailor to pull the boom closer to the deck.

Summary:
A new special unique to Lasers Harken Brand fitting might help the nice people at Harken to employ more people and send dividends to their investors but, I do not see any advantage to those of us who race Lasers which comes from moving our entire business from Holt ( who has supplied us for for over 30 years with high durability cheap fittings) to Harken who has more recently supplied us with very nice fittings as well.


How do the proposed new blocks allow prospective Laser sailors to spend more time sailing and less time earning money to sail?
 
I'd be in favour. Last year I managed to break the traveller blocks in a F3. It was one of the hooks that keep the two together that broke. Not major damage but a real pain as I did not then have a spare. I am thus very keen on something better and would almost certainly buy a set.

Ideally a system that did not require the eyes on the boom to be removed and re-riveted and of course one that does not hang further from the boom nor making the traveller pair longer (i.e. the "block to block is the same as the present blocks).

Ian
 
I'm with Gouvernail on this one.

Must cost less, or certainly no more then the current blocks..

As Tracy already mentioned and I agree with, any ball bearing block is going to give an advantage over the current blocks in very light air. The sail/boom will certainly go out easier, and with less friction, more input ("feel") from wind velocity changes will be translated thru the mainsheet to the skipper, which means he/she will be able to react sooner and take advantage of them compared to the current blocks.. This translates into multiple boat length gains downwind, and a much smaller gain upwind

I'd also ask if there is any consideration given to the wear that a block made from a harder material is going to do to the deck out by the trav eyes. Right now, the relatively soft plastic blocks will grind out the gelcoat with the trav tight. A harder block is going to do that in less time and possibly cause more damage. Do we have to accept that, or will that in turn cause a change allowing us to put some sort of sacrificial piece (tape, plastic, metal) on the deck, similar to the same problem we have now with the front edge of the daggerboard and the front edge of the trunk.
 
99.9% sure the proposed blocks will be more expensive. Therefore, I (and Gouvernail and 49208, I think) will vote against the change, if it ever gets that far.

I wish 'the powers that be' would consider something important, and about which so many have complained: the SAIL!!!
 
I think the main reason main sheets wear out is because the boom blocks don't dangle to the correct angle, so it wears on the cheeks.

I also don't think many people check their boom and traveler blocks for wear. Hold the cheeks and try to slide the sheave in and out. Any play there and it's time for new ones.

So, that's two ways decent blocks could save money in the long run. Sort of like the expensive aluminum traveler eyes.

Al
 
Save Money?
I am certain I have sailed more than 2000 Laser races and I ahve gone joyriding and "practiced" on numerous other occasions.

I have broken ONE traveler block. Part of the cheek fell off one side of that block and it still worked. I did replace it anyway.
( Note. I believe the failure was impact related and had nothing to do with sailing. I think it was fractured while trailering and broke later.)

Assuming I sail Lasers until I am a hundred years old, I don't see how it could possibly save money during the rest of my life to replace the blocks on any of my three (currently maintained for racing) Lasers.

Fancy new blocks will have the same "problems" as the current very good blocks.
New blocks will chafe. New blocks will be "borrowed." For the most part, new blocks will only be available from Laser dealers. If you leave the new blocks in the driveway and roll over them with cars, they will not survive.

Wavedancer brings up a great point. We could save thousands of dollars if the sails were built to last a reasonable length of time. Why are we being distracted with the non sense about bloocks when the blocks work just fine and the sails are failing to serve us?


Will the promoters of the new blocks make more money selling new blocks?

If so we are just their golden goose.
 
One surprising aspect to this thread is that people disagree. I'm not trying to put my preference again but even if the blocks are a bit more expensive, small difference in the scale of running a Laser. And as for the performance issue, again, compare the performance impact to the "improved sail" everybody is calling for. A few slightly better boom blocks might give somebody a slight advantage under some conditions (how significant might be open to debate), but compare that advantage to a new hi-tech sail !!!

Ian
 
about the only time the blocks would be of any competitive advantage would be in the lightest of light winds. the only real advantage to them is that i'm sure they would be a great deal more durable. an interesting thought was mentioned above about the wear on the deck due to harder more durable block...

first and foremost i think all would agree that the sail issue is one that needs to be fixed well before we start considering some change to a set of blocks.
 
I disagree entirely that the new blocks must be cheaper. The increase in cost will be negligible when compared to the cost of the boat as a whole. It is a very small price to pay to keep the boat up to date, and any performance increase will be marginal. These blocks could be described as a “nice to have” not a “must have”. Make the change – it’s 30 years over due.
 
how are they attached, tie on, shackle, or similar to what we have? does it have a metal strop, or plastic?

can we see the pics tracy?
?
 
first and foremost i think all would agree that the sail issue is one that needs to be fixed well before we start considering some change to a set of blocks.


The system is capable of multi-tasking so I don't see particular advantage to serializing things that might improve the boat or Laser sailing in general. Besides, last time I checked, Harken doesn't make sails... ;) And, in any case, the blocks have been in the development stage for some time.
 
Save Money?
I am certain I have sailed more than 2000 Laser races and I ahve gone joyriding and "practiced" on numerous other occasions.

I have broken ONE traveler block. Part of the cheek fell off one side of that block and it still worked. I did replace it anyway.
( Note. I believe the failure was impact related and had nothing to do with sailing. I think it was fractured while trailering and broke later.)

Assuming I sail Lasers until I am a hundred years old, I don't see how it could possibly save money during the rest of my life to replace the blocks on any of my three (currently maintained for racing) Lasers.

And I'm probably at the other end of the spectrum... I regularly replace the traveler blocks (indeed, I'm looking at a set now with a broken sheave which ocurred during the first day of racing at last Summer's PCC's). On a slightly less frequent basis I also have to replace the becket block at the end of the boom.

For what it is worth, I also replace the traveler on a regular basis (and think spectra works best) and get really annoyed at how often the traveler eyes break (and get really steamed at how much damage they do when they do break).
 
The advantage would come if the blocks would allow a sailor to pull the boom closer to the deck.

Yes, this is an important point. What I meant by
Other than that, they have been designed to match the dimensions of the current block so should behave the same in all other ways
was that the Harken people have taken this (and other issues) into account in their design. They have a nice powerpoint presentation (which I don't have) which shows how they insured no difference for this specific item.

But, of course, you more or less take it for granted that the Harken engineers figure all of these things out...
 
The system is capable of multi-tasking so I don't see particular advantage to serializing things that might improve the boat or Laser sailing in general. Besides, last time I checked, Harken doesn't make sails... ;) And, in any case, the blocks have been in the development stage for some time.

Tracy, thanks for the reply. First I didn't mean to imply that Harken does make sails. Secondly what I did mean is that the sail issue has one that should have been addressed long ago and should be the issue which has been in the development stage for some time.

I realize all can be done on one ballot but what's the likelihood of that happening? The sail issue is far from resolved, honestly it will probably be another 5 years before we see anything in the way of motion for change.
 
I'd also ask if there is any consideration given to the wear that a block made from a harder material is going to do to the deck out by the trav eyes. Right now, the relatively soft plastic blocks will grind out the gelcoat with the trav tight. A harder block is going to do that in less time and possibly cause more damage. Do we have to accept that, or will that in turn cause a change allowing us to put some sort of sacrificial piece (tape, plastic, metal) on the deck, similar to the same problem we have now with the front edge of the daggerboard and the front edge of the trunk.

Interesting point... I don't know that consideration has been given to this issue but will try to find out.
 
how are they attached, tie on, shackle, or similar to what we have? does it have a metal strop, or plastic?

can we see the pics tracy?
?

The boom blocks resemble, more or less, the current blocks and attach in the same way but with SS pins at the wear points.

Unfortunately, camera and I are not in close proximity at the moment.
 
Tracy, thanks for the reply. First I didn't mean to imply that Harken does make sails. Secondly what I did mean is that the sail issue has one that should have been addressed long ago and should be the issue which has been in the development stage for some time.

I realize all can be done on one ballot but what's the likelihood of that happening? The sail issue is far from resolved, honestly it will probably be another 5 years before we see anything in the way of motion for change.

Please, let's focus on the blocks in this thread and continue to comment on the sails in the "Victoria's Secret" thread.
 
The boom blocks resemble, more or less, the current blocks and attach in the same way but with SS pins at the wear points.

Unfortunately, camera and I are not in close proximity at the moment.

I assume we will have to drill out the boom straps to add these new blocks? If so, that kind of sucks, and is the main reason I had to buy a new boom! Would be nice if they attached via pin and ring ding, would make life a lot easier too
 
Please, let's focus on the blocks in this thread and continue to comment on the sails in the "Victoria's Secret" thread.

Ok, sounds good, back on topic now...

Really the main issues with the current blocks are A.) 30+ year old technology B.) straps must be removed to replace blocks

Replacing or reconfiguring a part doesn't make sense just to do it. If the product will wear better, be more user friendly, i.e. install with pins or shackles, still be afordable and lastly not render all boats with old blocks obsolete then that makes sense.

If this is being done because Harken wants a bigger piece of the Laser pie then that's just plain stupid. I don't think this is the case.
 
Am I correct in thinking that this change would not need to go the membership for a vote? If memory serves, the class rules don't specify the types of blocks that must be used, other than that they must be builder supplied. So the builders can change these whenever they want.

For what it's worth, I think the new blocks are a good idea. Some sort of quick release so they could be removed from the boom easily would be nice too. You could then leave the mainsheet rigged on the boat - even 30 seconds of saved rigging time helps. It would mean also changing the boom eye strap though.
 
99.9% sure the proposed blocks will be more expensive. Therefore, I (and Gouvernail and 49208, I think) will vote against the change, if it ever gets that far.
better blocks should cost more. How can anyone make bearing blocks, including any other improvements, for the same price or less?
I wish 'the powers that be' would consider something important, and about which so many have complained: the SAIL!!!
With you on that one. Priorities seem to be up the duff.
 
Granting that some folks wear out the current blocks or think performance would be changed with better blocks .....

How will the new blocks stand up to years of exposure to the weather?
Will the ball bearings be damaged by the sun and salt and cause the blocks to fall apart?
Will the new blocks stand up to chafing?
Is our long time supplier being allowed to compete for the new contract?

Note: I believe the traveler eyes problem is related to insufficient deck durability. it would be fairly simple to place material in the deck so the inboard screw would be much less prone to wallowing out its hole and slipping loose.
There is also no "performance of the boat" reason the eye could not be reshaped and redesigned so it could be entirely secured by a single through bolted outboard fastener.

But this discussion would require an entire new thread
 
The drift I'm catching here is that an attempt has been made to use modern materials without using the material to it's fullest advantage: to make a better product.

Harken engineers must be laughing all the way to the bank, more so than if someone came up with a new durable sail.

Engineer 1: Can you believe this racket...they want a block that's 15 years old by design to update their 39 year old block, made with modern materials as long as it doesn't improve the performance and they want to pay more for it!!

Engineer 2: (laughing) Money for Jam brother, money for jam...

Everyone buying a low priced item like a block is going to nett more profit than few buying an extra sail.

What exactly are we going to be asked to buy here?

1) a block that "looks modern"
2) a block that runs freer, doesn't twist the angle of sheet, and rdeuces friction
3) a block that redices friction but doesn't change "performance"

Come on guys, there's politics and then theres plain horsedung. It improves performance. What everyone wants. Now can we do away with this strange restriction to sensible improvements and tackle some of the other absurdities with the laser?

Good example as above: the fairleads for the traveller.

Harken make a micro "flairlead" that is reinforced with a metal bar. It's never going to break. It's cheaper. Harken is an approved supplier for laser. It's also "illegal". What rubbish this political game is, eh?

Yes I want better blocks, but if you're going to do it, make them a good as they can be for the year we're living in LOL. Yes I want a better sail and I want the silly politics to end that restrict sensible existing options to the fairlead issue. (if one of those breaks in a blow kiss your tiller goodbye)

and yes I'll pay more for it. There seems to be a strange interpretation of ILCA goals that any improvement shuts people out of laser racing. that it restricts the promotion of the sport adn "all aspects of laser sailing". Racing is a serious business, it can't be stalled for the guy who complains about a $30 increase in a block, but doesn't put any effort into racing, or turn up to meets often, and when he does, turns up with $55 worth of beer!

Keep it real.
 
I also agree. I cannot understand why the blocks must be cheaper. In fact I very much doubt they will be cheaper. However, you don't have to buy them that often (even stick with your old ones and remain completely competitive) so the real cost will be trivial.

Ian
 
I am hugely in favor of the new blocks....basically "evolutionary" improvements that are relatively inexpensive are EXACTLY the kinds of things we should allow as a class. I agree that other things could be improved as well. I STRONGLY believe that anything that ends up "changed" needs to be able to be retrofitted in a way that keeps older boats even competitively (ie, making a deck stronger isn't attractive)

I do NOT believe the blocks should necessarily be cheaper -- we should have the best blocks available for the application, using cost as a limiting factor. I would also be in favor of the other changes discussed in the thread (better sail materials, traveller bail upgrades, etc. etc.)

just my .02 -- sail fast

MDF
 
It won't be Harken that is laughing. It will be PSE.

Instead of using off-the shelf blocks where there is price competition, PSE insists on having the blocks "custom" which means the price is going to be whatever PSE says it will be (by avoiding any competition and Harken will have no say in the price we the sailors pay)

For example - look at the Holt Allen trav blocks (which you can buy at a discount from a stocking HA dealer) vs what the builder supplied blocks go for. Same basic block.. (Prices quoted on the APS site)

Vanguard Upper (Large) Traveler Block - $19.50
HA27874 Upper (Large) Traveler Block$11.60

Vanguard Lower (Small) Traveler Block - $13.15
HA17874 Lower (Small) Traveler Block$8.10
 
Am I correct in thinking that this change would not need to go the membership for a vote? If memory serves, the class rules don't specify the types of blocks that must be used, other than that they must be builder supplied. So the builders can change these whenever they want.

That is mostly correct... builder supplied items are specified in the Laser Construction manual, not the class rules. So, changing a builder supplied item does not require a vote of the class membership. It does, however, require the approval of the World Council (in addition to the builders and Bruce Kirby). Hence the request for feedback from TLF in this thread...
 
Granting that some folks wear out the current blocks or think performance would be changed with better blocks .....

How will the new blocks stand up to years of exposure to the weather?
Will the ball bearings be damaged by the sun and salt and cause the blocks to fall apart?
Will the new blocks stand up to chafing?

In the end, only time will tell. But it seems that Harken has a pretty good track record with these things, at least in my experience. In any case, it would be hard for me to believe that things would be any worse than with the current blocks.

Do they have salt in Lake Travis?

Is our long time supplier being allowed to compete for the new contract?

I dunno... was Harken given the opportunity to bid the first time around?

For what its worth, I understand that Holt-Allen also has a set of prototype blocks (ok, I saw them in Roses). I don't know right now what the final plan will be but one could imagine we could be in the situation, as with the vangs, where we will have two suppliers. This would actually be an improvement over the current situation.
 

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