Class Politics new laser sail

lyclaser

New Member
alright I have another question.
I need a new sail for this season. I noticed that the North sails (folded) on Layline.com are about $470. I also found a Hyde sail for about $550, and then theres the Rooster sail for almost twice as much as a North sail. I sail on the junior circut out of a small club in Ohio and I haven't met anyone from my club that sails lasers. Furthermore, we want the sail to last due to the lack of funding associated with the junior program. Is one sail better (or lasts longer) than the others?

Also, I have heard that sail makers have certian "zones" that they have to sell within. I guess what I am asking is has anyone bought a sail from Rooster or anywhere outside the U.S. and had it shipped over here? If so, how much was shipping?

Thanks a bunch!
Dan
 
The only sails legal for class racing are the North and Hyde. The Rooster sail is one of these two (most likely a Hyde)

The class legal sails are not sold direct from the sailmaker to the public - they are sold to the manufactures, and from there to the dealers.

Both sails are made from the same weight cloth, within certain specs (although the cloth comes from two different suppliers), so life span is going to be about the same.

You can get a sail that will last longer, built by a sailmaker, usually for less $$ but it won't be legal for class racing - or you can buy used if cost is an issue and trade off some performance.

My guess on shipping from outside US into US would run around $50 or so - not sure about duty...
 
If you are very serious into racing then it would be wise to bight the bullet and go for the more expensive Hyde brand sail. I've personally seen that the quality of dracon used by Hyde is far superior to that of the North Sails. The Hydes last in racing condition for a much greater period of time and are less "blown out" after heavy air use. Hyde is the brand preffered by any really serious Laser sailor and you will see mostly all Hyde sails at big events.

Even if you aren't THAT serious into racing then you still may want to get a Hyde, here's why. As I stated before, they last in racing condition for a much longer period of time so you could race in club fleets for multiple seasons with a racing condition sail and wouldn't have to replace it every other season. You can also sell your Hyde sail after a couple season's use for much more because sensible buyers do pay more for them.

A while back I actually e-mailed Vanguard and asked why the Hyde is more expensive and they backed up everything I stated above. But still this is only my experience so please listen to what others may have to say :)
 
"A while back I actually e-mailed Vanguard and asked why the Hyde is more expensive and they backed up everything I stated above. But still this is only my experience so please listen to what others may have to say"

You clearly misunderstood what you were told by whomever it was you spoke with here at Vanguard.

First of all, there seems to be a lot more opinion on the differences between the two sails than there are differences between the two sails. There are two manufacturers of Laser sails for the reason that redundancy of supply protects the market from shortages due to uncontrollable circumstances, and for the fact that we (Vanguard) have a larger overall relationship with North and PSE has a larger overall relationship with Hyde. Our volume of business with North gets us favorable pricing with North, and PSE's volume of business with Hyde gets them their best deal with Hyde.

THE ONLY REASON A HYDE SAIL COSTS MORE THROUGH VANGUARD IS THAT WE PAY MORE FOR THEM FROM HYDE THAN WE DO FROM NORTH. PERIOD. The only reason that Hyde sails are available in NA is that people have asked for them and when we have an opportunity to give people what they ask for, it's generally good policy to do so. I can not comment on why people want them, but I can say that your statement that all of the top NA sailors use Hyde is not true.

The facts about the two sails:
1. Reasons for two suppliers as stated above.
2. They are cut to exact same patterns.
3. Greige (pronounced "grey") goods (polyester fibers from which the fabric originates) are sourced directly by each manufacturer.
4. The fabrics produced (Hydes are made by Contender Sailcloth, Norths are made by North Cloth) are produced with the exact same end product in mind.
5. Regular tests go on between the two manufacturers, both overt and on the sly.
6. There have been many instances when cloth from one source was unavailable, and both manufacturers were sourcing cloth from the same place. Not long ago ALL sails were being made temporarily from North Cloth, as Contender was unable to supply.
7. The finishing details on both sails are identical.
8. The cloth standards accepted by each sail manufacturer fall within a significantly narrowed range of that specified in the Laser Builder's Manual.
9. There have been times when one sail or the other has seemed better. There was a batch of bad cloth from North in 1997-early 98. Sometime before that, North sails were all the rage worldwide because they were the stuff. Fallout from the 98 sails instigated a bunch of spec tightening and general evaluation of how the whole process works. The result of that work has been wholly more consistent sails for all.

With all of those facts out in the open (and this is the story that you get when you ask here), it's difficult to imagine that people want one sail or the
other, but there's no accounting for taste.

Either way, get the one you want, but don't perpetuate a bunch of rumours based on fallacies.
 
Thank you, Mr. Kirkpatrick for giving us the truth and clearing up any doubts. It is comforting to know that Vanguard and other manufacturers go to such great lengths to make make sure the sails are created equally. Such effort is highly appreciated in order to keep our class truly "one design."

However, and I don't mean to come across as a prick here, I would like to defend myself.

You started your post quoting me and saying, "You clearly misunderstood what you were told by whomever it was you spoke with here at Vanguard."

Actually, I did not misunderstand them it all. Whomever it was (I don't remmember and unfortunately I no longer have the actual e-mail) stated that Hyde sails:

1. Were made better
2. Are more widely used by Olympic and other serious racers
3. Cost more in the US because they have to be imported from Europe

Again, thanks for clearing up these falsehoods but this is exactly along the lines of what was written back to me in the e-mail I sent asking why Hyde sails cost more. So no, I did not misuderstand what I was told, I was simply told wrong information, with the exception of the last point that you told us was true, Mr. Kirkpatrick.

You also went on to say, "I can not comment on why people want them, but I can say that your statement that all of the top NA sailors use Hyde is not true."

This I feel is clumsy writing on your part, and again I do not mean to be rude, because I never STATED anything of the sort. Never in my post did I use the term "all" or "NA."
In fact, If you look back at If you look back at my original post you will see I wrote, "Hyde is the brand preffered by any really serious Laser sailor and you will see mostly all Hyde sails at big events." This, you must agree, is far from what you said I wrote and from what I have experienced holds lots of truth to it.

Finally, you ended you post saying, "Either way, get the one you want, but don't perpetuate a bunch of rumours based on fallacies."

This again I find is clumsy writing because I didn't write any false rumors in my post. I clearly stated in my post that my points came directly from peronal experience and from sources at Vanguard. I used terms like, "I've personally seen..." and "still this is only my experience... ." So no, I never wrote any rumors.






Again, it is nice to see that North Laser sails and Hyde Lasers sails are created equally ON PAPER, but I'm still not convinced. From personal experince, again I stress from PERSONAL EXPERIENCE, Hyde sails seem to last longer and appear to be less "blown out" after heavy air use. MANY sailors that I have talked to that have been racing Lasers for a long time agree with me too.

I know that this thread is only foccusing on Laser full rig sails, but Laser Radial sails made by North and Hyde have had many first hand experiences showing that they are not made EXACTLY identical. In a thread a long while ago labeled "Which Radial is Right," mattsterett posted,

"I happen to own a ridiculous number of radial sails (6- 4 Norths and 2 Hydes). I have found that the Hydes last longer and are actually slightly different in sail shape and seemingly bigger (i placed a new Hyde on a new North and I do not know how this is legal but the Hydes passed inspection at the laser radial worlds twice)."

In another post in the same thread by Murphs stated that,

" i have just bought a brand new north mk 6. a fellow club member ordered a hyde mk 6. after seeing the above post i called him to test mattsterett's theory/discovery. we found the hyde was a bit bigger at the bottom of the leech and the north was slightly bigger at the top of the leech."

Seeing such differences in Radial sails leeds me to believe that there may be some differeneces in the North and Hyde full rig sails too.

I am some what of a superstitionist myslef, so even if it is proven a million times that there aren't ANY differences in North and Hyde sails AT ALL, I'd probobly still go with the Hyde sail just because I think it's better.

All I can say is that when I go to order my new Laser Radial for this summer's racing next week, I'm going to specifically ask for a Hyde Radial MK6 sail.

Again Dave, I don't mean to come across as "attacking" your statements or yourself, or in anyway put you down for you know a whole heap more about Laser stuff than I do hands down. I simply wanted a chance to defend myself and to also further stress my BELIEFS and PERSONAL EXPERIENCES on the topic. No hard feelings and I hope you feel the same way.
 
---snip---
macwas16 said:
I've personally seen that the quality of dracon used by Hyde is far superior to that of the North Sails.
---snip---

So Macwas16, please explain the above statement that you made.

From where I'm sitting, someone called BS on your post, laid out the facts and now you can't remember who you were quoting or find the email that supported your statements.
 
When I stated, "I've personally seen that the quality of dracon used by Hyde is far superior to that of the North Sails," I wasn't quoting anybody. That statement was the general conclusion I had made after numerous personal experiences with both sails, aftter talking to many sailors who have drawn the same conclusion themsleves and also by the same conclusion I got by whomever it was that reponded to my e-mail that I sent to Vanguard at [email protected].

I do not understand why you think I "can't remember who [was] quoting or find the email that supported [my] statements." But my sources were those that I stated above and it's unfortunate that I no longer have the email and wish I did, my inbox just isn't that large. I'm sorry and I should have made this more clear. So yes, I do know exactly who I was "quoting" and I know the exact e-mail that supported my statement.


Either way, this is besides the point. Mr. Kirkpatrick corrected this earlier and laid down the facts to prove that North and Hyde sails are created equally.

So I'm still going to go out and by my Hyde sails because I still believe they last longer, even if they really don't, and because many other sailors have agreed with me. It's been said before that if something works for you, stick with it. I guess you'll just have to buy the sail you preffer.
 
Mackenzie,

I'm curious what expertise you have in evaluating that the dacron cloth used by Hyde is superior. I don't want to cut on you, but if you are seeing variances between the two cloths that I will have to work with North on, I need to know what criteria you are basing these judgements on, and it would of course help to know your experience in working with sailcloth.

And just to clear up the whole [email protected] email business, you really weren't told by anyone here that Hyde sails are better. I've reviewed this with everyone who has answered that email account in the last year (I am frequently called on to help when people get a question they don't really know about) and each person remembers when I addressed this topic originally, and claims never to have written any email claiming that Hyde sails are better.

At North American regattas, Norths outnumber Hydes by a huge margin. This is logical since Norths come with new boats, and since we sell North vs Hyde in about a 20 to 1 ratio.

Again, if you feel that Hydes work for you, use them.

Best,
Dave Kirkpatrick
Performance Products Manager
Vanguard Sailboats
 
Hi there!
I´m not conviced by the words of Mr Kirkpatrick.
Although all (new) Lasersails should be equal, I found, by testing them intensive on the water (at least: two weeks ago with a speedometer on board et cetera at the big lakes in the netherlands), "sometimes" that not everyone (new) sail is exact like the other (new). This means: The same boat in exact the same sailingconditions et cetera runs slower or faster in fact of the little bit different forms of the sail-wing of the different (new) sails.

However, I only give the advice: test them! - and if you have reasonable points to think, that the new sail you got is not as good like it should be, give them back to the producer. You payed really a lot of money for this few couple of squaremeters, didn´t you?
In my opinion, this is at least the original out-of-the-box-boat-builder (not the poor merchandizer who must bring the sail to the sailors).
Here in Europe, we have strong product-warranty-laws. Any lawyer for this waits already for you (we are living in the 3. century :) ), if needed, to secure, on the right way of course, if an original out-of-the-box-boat-builder does not want to give you the right to have by law (And all we Lasersailors of course know, there is a Fundamental Rule and By Laws for our Laserclass, that luckily secure especially in this point of discusion the Lasersailor as customer.).
In North America and other continents it is maybe the same, I hope for you. From my sailing the Laser as Lasercruiser for 28 years (more than less intensive), I have never seen, that one new Lasersail is exact like the other(new) and I can tell you some other nice stories about this, but unfortunately this is a thread about "exact equal" sails and not for example for new broken daggerboards etc...


Greetings from Germany
LooserLu
DLAS-Member and the now nearly every weekend going out and lasercruising (and -testing) Laserite ;-)
 
Mr. Kirkpatrick, Would you be so kind to
tracking down some actual data on sail cloth QC/measurement checks between Contender and North (along with the dates of the checks) and lets see who runs a tighter ship/weave/thread count/resin content, etc etc and post the specs and their tolerances. Preferably in laymans terms and in a spreadsheet.
Shirley Vanguard keeps tabs/records on its sail makers.
Many Thanks in Advance
Glenn Walker

"5. Regular tests go on between the two manufacturers, both overt and on the sly
instigated a bunch of spec tightening and general evaluation of how the whole process works" - Dave Kirkpatrick
 
To me it would seem advantageous for Dave to defend the sail made by the company his company has an agreement with. Dave is not exactly a neutral opinion.
 
well to give a neutral opinion i will say that enjoy a new sail why you can, because both makes seem to only last a season or less in great condition and i think we should all stop bickering about which is better because to be frank i think we can agree that the condition of them is crap and we pay far more for a sail than we should! there is no difference in the sails because they are all crap and it is a ONE DESIGN CLASS! otherwise next to our results at regattas it would say:
i.e. 175781 / JAMES EASTBURY / M / HYDE
or
175781 / JAMES EASTBURY / M / NORTH
as sailors we are being cheated by the sail comapanies in price and quality so maybe before we should discuss which is the better sail something should be done about the sail overall!
 
I would love to know the actual cost of a North "Sri Lanka" Laser main sail. The end user cost of almost $500.00 is outrageous given the amount of cloth used and that it's most likely produced by someone making $2.00, (american) per day. All of this statement is my personal opinion and based on no fact. Anyone offering cost facts here is most welcome!

There is a lot of money being made on these sails. I"ll bet Vanguard annual profits on the sails and royalties outpaces profits on new lasers sold.

I love my laser and the class and I will continue to get "mugged" and buy new sails, but I don't have to like it.
 
I don't care if Dave's data is bias or not, I just want to see it. I bet both companies have plenty of hiccups in their processes and would not be proud of their #s. Sort of like when you worked at a resturant, you want people to eat there but you your self don't because you know what goes on behind scenes. (5sec rule)
G
 
Compared to an Opti sail @ $425 (APS) the Laser sail @ $465 seems like a bargain!

In all seriousness, pricing, design,specs, etc has been discussed on the Laser e-list in the past. You can look it up in the List Archives
 
Aww Man don't tell me that about the Opti. I've got a 3 year old that will need one of those soon!
 
Yeah the archives are a small piece of the puzzle. According to Benson, they use inferior cloth, However I would still like to see the #s between the two companies. I would be curious to see the cloth orientation as well. Anyway it appears Mr. Kirkpatrick is not going to reply, so no use in beating a dead horse.
 
Glenn W. said:
Yeah the archives are a small piece of the puzzle. According to Benson, they use inferior cloth, However I would still like to see the #s between the two companies. I would be curious to see the cloth orientation as well. Anyway it appears Mr. Kirkpatrick is not going to reply, so no use in beating a dead horse.

Yea, isn't that interesting. An old boss told me once, "Numbers don't lie." I guess we are not going to see any from Vanguard on this one. Oh well.
 
No, I am not going to give out numbers. I will tell you that North and Hyde voluntarily use less than half of the spec range that the Laser Class allows for sail cloth.
As for Brent Benson's statements that the sailmakers use inferior cloth, I hope (and believe) that he is knowledgeable enough to mean "the Class mandated cloth is not generally considered, among sailmakers and cloth manufacturers, to be near the forefront of dacron cloth technology." Indeed, Laser sailcloth is produced only for Laser sails - there are no other sails which use this cloth. If Brent means otherwise, he is ill informed.
Just as the manufacturers of the hulls strive to build the best LEGAL Lasers, the sailmakers strive to build the best LEGAL Laser sails.
 
To solve this problem, the Laser Class needs to change the specification of the sail. This was talked about several years ago, but was decided that the change would cause unneeded/unfair expense to stay competitive. I never understood that conclusion, since to be competitive you have to purchase a new sail every year anyway.

We have much improved sail controls, so improved sails are in order.

BTW, personally, I don't think Vanguard is making that much profit on the sale of sails. Since the cloth is manufactured ONLY for the Laser sail, the low production volume results in higher per foot costs. (Simple economics.)
 
Scott Bosso said:
To solve this problem, the Laser Class needs to change the specification of the sail. This was talked about several years ago, but was decided that the change would cause unneeded/unfair expense to stay competitive. I never understood that conclusion, since to be competitive you have to purchase a new sail every year anyway.

We have much improved sail controls, so improved sails are in order.

BTW, personally, I don't think Vanguard is making that much profit on the sale of sails. Since the cloth is manufactured ONLY for the Laser sail, the low production volume results in higher per foot costs. (Simple economics.)

I'd have to argue the low production theory. There are over 180,000 boats out there. I'll bet at least 2,000 boats, (%0.1111 of existing boats) buy sails every year. At $460.00 per sail that's $920,000.00 in Laser Sail revenue. Used, full rig sails are impossible to find. It takes 195 new Lasers to equal that revenue and I'll bet there is much more profit margin in the "shri lanka" sails than the boats. No sir, yeee. North would not want to lose this contract!
 
Rob,

You are looking at gross revenue at the retail level. An irrevelavent number.

To determine North's revenue, you need to know what they wholesale the sails for to the dealers/distributors. To determine their profit, you need to determine their cost of materials and manufacturing.

While 2000 sails (your number) may sound like a large quantity of sails, at only 76 sq. ft. per sail, that really is not very much (by square footage volume) sail cloth.
 
Scott Bosso said:
Rob,

You are looking at gross revenue at the retail level. An irrevelavent number.

To determine North's revenue, you need to know what they wholesale the sails for to the dealers/distributors. To determine their profit, you need to determine their cost of materials and manufacturing.

While 2000 sails (your number) may sound like a large quantity of sails, at only 76 sq. ft. per sail, that really is not very much (by square footage volume) sail cloth.

Scott,

I've been a buyer and planner for department retail for 7 years and in sales for 10+ years now. Every business plan begins with a sales dollar, (revenue) projection. Revenue does drive business. It's the old supply vs. demand model. The more the demand the tighter the control on the supply can be, therefore the more profitable a company can choose to be by increasing margin in their products, (that's why smoe new cars sell for above MSRP when they first come out like the Mazda Miata did years ago). When demand slips you see the fire sales to generate business, (that's called markdowns in retail. usually out of season goods). Some companies choose to reverse that model when there is competition. For instance Wal-Mart, (years ago) used to operate on a gross margin plan of 28%. Their logic was if we can meet our revenue goal, (planned sales) then we can continue to grow on 28% gross margin and put K-Mart out of business. Every store I managed had daily revenue goals, which was #1. #2 came tight labor cost controls as a percentage to the daily/weekly/monthly revenue plan. #3 was markdown dollars/shrink the other margin killers. The plan worked. By 1996 K-Mart was bleeding.

In the case of North and Laser sails. They have a lock on this business with only one competitior, (Hyde) that charges $100.00 US more for their sail, (only because the US dollar is weak to the Euro right now). I think it is a given that there is nothing special about the North cloth used to make the sails and, again, I'll bet the house on the fact that the labor used in Sri Lanka is cheap and the cost of the Laser sail to North is quite low. Much like the way Nike makes most of their goods, (which I've done business with before as well). Given Norths position for this product in the market place they are FOOLS if they make less than 40% gross margin on every Laser sail.

My initial estimate of 2,000 sails is not a lot of sails given the amount of boats that are most likely actively racing around the world today. I think my estimate was quite conservative and I think Laser sails are nothing but gravey to Norths annual bottom line. Again, if it's not then someone is mismanaging that part of the North business.

Another example: I know a local sail maker of a "no name" brand. On a good year he pops out about 65 MC Scow sails a year, plus a few sets of J22 sails, some PHRF headsails and a few other odds and ends stuff out of his little "garage" loft every year. It's rumored that his annual take home is around the $70K mark. Not Bad. Of course he has very little overhead, but he uses the same cloth materials as most other makers, (w/the exception of patented string sails).

So, if North manages the Laser sail business well then it's a great money maker. If not, then they should go ahead and knock off about $75.00 from the current suggested retail, get the price under the $400.00 mark, make a lot of people happy, and consider it a "lost leader" item. They could probably do that now and be just fine anyway.

Jeez, that was a rant. I'm not a jerk, (but sometimes I play one on TV) I just feel strongly about this topic. Now I need a drink. Then I'm going to work on my boat. Good Night.
 
Mr. Bush, I mean Mr. Kirkpatrick, Benson meant that the cloth is not what is to be considered "racing sail quality material" Just give us the #s so we all that are so anal and who bought North sails can sleep at night knowing our sails are of the same quality as the competitor. Give the #s with no labels attached so we won't know which company is which. So if the #s are close then it won't matter who makes the sails. To Mr. Benson I apologize if I took any of your posts out of context.
Glenn
 
In the case of North and Laser sails. They have a lock on this business with only one competitior, (Hyde) that charges $100.00 US more for their sail, (only because the US dollar is weak to the Euro right now). I think it is a given that there is nothing special about the North cloth used to make the sails and, again, I'll bet the house on the fact that the labor used in Sri Lanka is cheap and the cost of the Laser sail to North is quite low. Much like the way Nike makes most of their goods, (which I've done business with before as well). Given Norths position for this product in the market place they are FOOLS if they make less than 40% gross margin on every Laser sail.

My initial estimate of 2,000 sails is not a lot of sails given the amount of boats that are most likely actively racing around the world today. I think my estimate was quite conservative and I think Laser sails are nothing but gravey to Norths annual bottom line. Again, if it's not then someone is mismanaging that part of the North business.

Another example: I know a local sail maker of a "no name" brand. On a good year he pops out about 65 MC Scow sails a year, plus a few sets of J22 sails, some PHRF headsails and a few other odds and ends stuff out of his little "garage" loft every year. It's rumored that his annual take home is around the $70K mark. Not Bad. Of course he has very little overhead, but he uses the same cloth materials as most other makers, (w/the exception of patented string sails).

So, if North manages the Laser sail business well then it's a great money maker. If not, then they should go ahead and knock off about $75.00 from the current suggested retail, get the price under the $400.00 mark, make a lot of people happy, and consider it a "lost leader" item. They could probably do that now and be just fine anyway.



North and Hyde don't set the retail price of the sails. Hyde doesn't charge $100 more then North either. The local Laser dealer does. You are confusing end user pricing with supplier pricing. Dave has already stated that the reason the Hyde sail is more expensive in the US is because Vanguard does not have as favorable a deal with Hyde.

Guesses, examples that compare apples to oranges, rumors and bad logic usually lead to incorrect conclusions. North is a supplier to Vanguard, not to you and me, the end users. So how can North knock off $75 from the suggested retail price when North has no control over that ?

You mention you were/are a buyer. As a buyer isn't your job to get the lowest possible price for the goods from your suppliers ? So if the buyer for Vanguard has done his/her job well, they have already pushed North to cut their price on the sails. It's not all due to Euro vs dollar, the Hyde has always been more expensive in NA.

How does the price of the Laser sail compare to sails for other classes that are sold the same way (sailmaker to manufacturer to dealer to end user) ?
How does the price of the class legal laser sail compare to a local sailmaker's practice sail ? What I see listed at APS leads me to believe, much as I don't like it, that we are getting a decent price for the class legal sail based on the number of middlemen between us and the sailmaker. If we want to buy it for less, it looks like the class would have to change the rules so we could buy direct from the sailmakers. I don't see that happening.
 
Glenn W. said:
Mr. Bush, I mean Mr. Kirkpatrick, Benson meant that the cloth is not what is to be considered "racing sail quality material" Just give us the #s so we all that are so anal and who bought North sails can sleep at night knowing our sails are of the same quality as the competitor. Give the #s with no labels attached so we won't know which company is which. So if the #s are close then it won't matter who makes the sails. To Mr. Benson I apologize if I took any of your posts out of context.
Glenn

Dave and/or any Vanguard employee doesn't have to post here at all, he does so as a courtesy and frankly, I find his contributions here to be very helpful. I'd hate to see him leave because we can't be civil. He answered the query and stated no numbers are coming. Fair enough.

For me, if I didn't think the North was as good as the Hyde, the next sail I would buy would be a Hyde. If I wasn't sleeping at night because I was convinced it wasn't as good, I would sell my existing sail and get the other one right away. No amount of data spewed by someone would change my mind. Why should it ?
 
49208 said:
North and Hyde don't set the retail price of the sails. Hyde doesn't charge $100 more then North either. The local Laser dealer does. You are confusing end user pricing with supplier pricing. Dave has already stated that the reason the Hyde sail is more expensive in the US is because Vanguard does not have as favorable a deal with Hyde.

Guesses, examples that compare apples to oranges, rumors and bad logic usually lead to incorrect conclusions. North is a supplier to Vanguard, not to you and me, the end users. So how can North knock off $75 from the suggested retail price when North has no control over that ?

You mention you were/are a buyer. As a buyer isn't your job to get the lowest possible price for the goods from your suppliers ? So if the buyer for Vanguard has done his/her job well, they have already pushed North to cut their price on the sails. It's not all due to Euro vs dollar, the Hyde has always been more expensive in NA.

How does the price of the Laser sail compare to sails for other classes that are sold the same way (sailmaker to manufacturer to dealer to end user) ?
How does the price of the class legal laser sail compare to a local sailmaker's practice sail ? What I see listed at APS leads me to believe, much as I don't like it, that we are getting a decent price for the class legal sail based on the number of middlemen between us and the sailmaker. If we want to buy it for less, it looks like the class would have to change the rules so we could buy direct from the sailmakers. I don't see that happening.

You've made some good points here. You're right that guessing and making assumptions does not really help anything. So, if I understand you correctly. Vanguard awards the sail contract to North and Hyde. Then dealers like Layline and APS have to buy the sails through Vanguard to sell to the public. Is that how it works? It would appear that a lot of hands are getting paid. No wonder they are so expensive and Vanguard is in the drivers seat.

At the end of the day the boats are the razors and the sails are the razor blades. I just think we are getting hosed on the price for what we get, (even though I do like the strict class control on the sail). The same goes for Sunfish, Opti and other boats that follow the same business model. I could go on and on discussing this, but what's the point it's just beating a dead horse. I have my opinion, which I have expressed and I'm sticking to it. Just wait until the carbon top section gets approved. I'll have a good rant for that one too!!

Now, I have to go and order my new sail!
 
Hey Rob,
but don´t order your new sail in Germany, ok. ;-)

The fact is:
The new (folded standard) sail would cost you 570 Euro (1 Euro is about 1,20 US$) at the local official licensed "out of the box boat" dealer here .... :-(
Why is it so much more expensive than in the USA?????


Oh, I forgot, of course the cost is without postal service, duty and without the Laserstar (about 14 Euro extra) and the letters (each one is 2,1 Euro) ... :-(


Ooopss, I forgot, of course this is the price for a simple folded Sail - rolled you will have to pay 46 Euro extra...:-( (and postal costs will be much more expensive)


Now all, take your calculators.... :)


THIS are the facts, Dave, that Mr. Johns, your boss from the "out of the boxbuilder" has to explain the readers of this thread in NA (or his pendants in the UK or RSA etc for the readers of this thread at the other continents... ) or one of the Mr. "big official´s" from our International Laserclass Association tell us how the rabbit runs.

But, I´m afraid, this persons from "The Family" have to much shyness, to talk with us, <- this is proved, for me, by the fact, that this "honorable men" do not like to talk here - honestly.

Dave,of course, you are excused, because you are maybe not really independend because of your job, altough I strong believe you would like to tell us the truth - in a room with no publicity, of course. You try the best to give us answers, there for I thank you.

And Rob, save your money if+where you can - some day in the near or far future the "carbon rigg-goddies" will come. At the Byte class from Mr. Bruce it is already reality.
The cost for all (sail + spars) is about 1600 US-$, if I read right. And if "you" are an official classmember there, "you" can order it now for a special price under 800 US-$.

Now, we can all take our calculators again and do some mathematics...

I think, the new CII-Rigg for the Byte is not so far away in its design, than a carbon-rigg-design for the Laser will sooner or later get, too, if our boat will try to stay durable in "the club of the olympic sailingboats", is my opinion.

Oh Rob, I´m realy happy to be a non racer in times like this, you can believe me in that. I can order my sails at my local sailmaker or get a used one from a pro etc.

By the the way: I have the possiblility to buy something (f.e. a New North Sail, for only 460 US-$) at NY-City. Does anybody know a Laserboat-store DIRECT in NY-City or Jersey-City. The dealers from the list at teamvanguard-website (NY,NJ,CT) are all to far away to reach easy. If someone does know such a store, please send me a private notice here at TLF, thanks)

Greetings from Europe + Bye-bye!
Your LooserLu
(Faust I: Nichts auf dieser Erde hat Bestand / Nothing on earth will be forever...)
 
The new CII-Rigg for the Byte is not that great... I tried it last year... I wish PS2000 would do Lasers... one of my coach is Tyler Bjorn.... anyways I'm not too shur carbon mast would be good... simple is always better
 
what are its disadvantages? from what i see it is extremely good and fast. But then again all i have seen is photos etc from the manufacturer
 
LooserLu said:
Greetings from Europe + Bye-bye!
Your LooserLu
(Faust I: Nichts auf dieser Erde hat Bestand / Nothing on earth will be forever...)

Where are you going? Take it easy!
 
Goonie said:
Where are you going? Take it easy!
Thanks Goonie, my words were only dedicated to our Laser Rigg.
I don´t know anyone, who has tested the CII-rig from that boat, that has its name maybe from Steve Balmer ;)
But the CII-rigg LOOK´s really fast (that does not mean, that I think this rig IS fast - personally also I don´t have tested it, so all I say is only "subjective"/non-proved and maybe it is wrong).

The Laser don´t really need a new rigg- and a new saildesign, is my opinion. Although I allways cry about it´s quality, but like someone already said here, there is no really need for a new rigg (if the delivered quality wouldbe like it should) in a 1 design class like the Laser, where all race with the SAME (bad or good) stuff and only the ability to sail (and luck) is important to win.
That´s the fundamental thought Kirby/Bruce had and no way go around this for me.


But, aren´t we all a bit like that: Why I should drive an old rusty VW-´68 Beetle, although (I maybe have the money and) I can drive a tuned Porsche-Cayenne turboTD? The good looking girlies etc. will more look to the big fast one, than to that old "lame" stuff (although the old stuff runs and runs and the new porsche every time stands in the garage because it´s defect), that´s the life goes everytime, isn´t it?

The only reason for new spars (in my opinion) can be, that because of the new XD-control-systems the "old" spars are overtaxed/overstressed - and the new designed stuff does not fit perfect together to the old spars and dracon-sail.

I´m a little bit old fashioned and over 27 years of sailing, the old rig design I get sad, if I think in any future I hve sail with a Neil-Pryde-laminated windsurver-sail. I personally more like the old styling - that´s why I wrot that from Faust :)
Bye-bye
LooserLu
 

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