Thread starter #1
The new page has NO MENTION of the forum! How come? Yes its nice, but now when you click on the classifieds, it takes you to some other new classifieds with NO ADS!! Brad whats going on?



Thread starter #4
The new site looks great. I was not really involved with it although I did offer some suggestions along the way, and in the future may be more involved again. I don't know for sure. The classified ads will also remain here. The forum link is going to be added, things are just getting put together, the address for the forum is going to change which is why there are not to many links to it any more.


Thread starter #5
Brad wrote:

> the address for the forum is going to
> change which is why there are not too
> many links [in] to it any more.

My understanding of the message communicated to me by the ILCA NA Executive Director is that, in light of the serious discussion on the NA Mailing List about the various claims of serious mismanagement and poor judgement shown in this Forum... official ties between ILCA NA and this Forum will exist!

That is, as the recent change in the name of this forum also implies, this forum is no longer the official "North American Laser Class Forum".

Basically, the opinions expressed by the Forum Administration which contradicted ILCA-NA positions and policies made it impossible for this forum to exist as a volunteer-run part of the ILCA-NA organization and web site. That's the reason why this forum will have to move to its own URL and a new server.

As a word of advice, even the use of the Laser logo and the word "Laser" here may be a breach of the legal rights of the trademark owners, the Laser Builders world-wide, and should be cleared immediately if serious legal problems are to be avoided.

Interested readers may follow the related posts by visiting the NA Mailing List, now at:

Related official announcements will probably be posted sometime in the future in the "Announcements" section of this forum by the Site Admin. IMHO, all references to "ILCA-NA" or the "Laser Class" or "James Appel" currently present in the Announcements section should be removed by editing the related documents and topics, so as not to mislead the current and all future subscribers of this forum.

Best regards,

Shevy Gunter
Member, ILCA-NA


Thread starter #6
HI Shevy, SO the word is out.

James and I had a long discussion on the phone as to what would be best for the success of the forum technically and nontechnically.

Reason One:
The forum couldn't be hosted at Crystal Tech unless we did some major conversions which are not possible. I researced this heavily (James to) and found there was no way to do so. We looked at conversion to Snitz, and this proved to be inpossible.

Reason Two:
99.9% of the class enjoy this forum, yet the loudest member doesn't. Deciding to have no offical ties with the class nullifies any complainst you may have.

Reason Three: I had considered this before, especially when there was talk of charging for the forum.

In conclusion, the Forum is now a privately run site (officially when the domain changes and we begin using Ikonboard by the end of this weekend). The current mods are welcome to stay, and as far as I know, none are leaving. As far as logo usage, as you will see at the bottom of everypage, Trademark notices are given and the logo on the new site also displays a nice ® (ALT + 0174) on it.


Thread starter #7
My dear Bradley,

You wrote:
> 99.9% of the class enjoy this forum, yet the loudest
> member doesn't.

I am proud to be that loudest member when the need arises! If the "majority opinion" of this minority made a difference in legal, ethical and technical matters like this, we would still be in the dark ages as a whole society.

> Deciding to have no offical ties with the
> class nullifies any complainst you may have.

Absolutely! Correct! Now, you can do whatever you want to do with it! As long as you do not mix in the good name of the NA Laser class association!

Now, my remarks are valid only as a Forum member! Now, I have no reason to criticize the Class Officers we elected. Now, my attention in this great Forum can be directed only to its administration, if and when necessary.

A single day does not pass by when, if you talk, you do not present SOME problem for our Class. Example? Forget the "Dick Tillman" AND OTHER censoring issues, and just consider the following quote from you dated Tue Oct 22, 2002 11:34 am :

> the winner (who ever is closest) will get a special title by there
> name as your Christmas present (or holiday gift if you are
> not religous)!
> Bradley Green
> Laser Class Forum Manager

If we don't immediately make an issue out of it, it doesn't mean that we don't notice it! Unfortunately, you are oblivious to problems your cerebral patterns present us on a daily basis.

So, please forget about those neat, self-comforting rationalizations and face the real issues! Remove your own moderator privileges, and find some experienced discussion group moderators - if you want this great forum to have a chance to survive if and when the core population of Laser sailors ever joins this forum!

You also wrote:

> As far as logo usage, as you will see at the bottom of
> everypage, Trademark notices are given and the logo on
> the new site also displays a nice ® (ALT + 0174) on it.

Once again, you demonstrate your ignorance of the laws as well as ethics and common sense. Find a trademarks lawyer and inquire! Recognizing that a logo is registered to a different entity does not give you or me the right to use it on our web sites! Didn't you ever wonder why even the ILCA website does not use the exact "Laser" logo? You can not just develop a web site and put the "IBM" logo on it, trying to protect yourself with the lame excuse that you put a " nice ®" next to it. Explicit permission must be obtained.

Take my advice! Contact all copyright holders!

You are also wrong in your statement that these are trademarks of "Vanguard Sailboats". They are not! They are so only in North America. But your site reaches all of the world via the internet!

Not that you did not know this fine point, Brad! I privately warned you before, and told you what to write there instead. But as usual, you prefer ignoring any advice.

Now that this forum is a private property that does not have anything to do with the Class, I will do my best to advertise it to the extent that I can... In spite of the fact that the day I added your Forum to the "drLaser FAQ", you had taken out all Class links to drLaser from the official ILCA NA web site! And for what reason? To impose your 9/11 related political views which politicized this sports organization, without even the knowledge of the Class!!!

One final word of advice: Some posts are far better left unanswered, especially if you're going to put your foot in your mouth again in answering them.

My best wishes for The Forum!

Dr. Shevy Gunter
Member, ILCA NA

Be happy;....everyone, via compromise, is getting pretty much what they want. I am happy to help develope the forum, officialy or unofficialy. Even though it may take time to do this, time is all we have.

Happy Lasering.!! :D


Thread starter #9
Ken wrote:
> Even though it may take time to do this, time is all
> we have.

Dear Ken,

Yes, time is an asset we have, but is not ALL we have. If it were, if we left things to "time", we would still be where we were 15 days ago.

I am trying to help with private e-mails to Owner with suggestions and corrections here and there to tighten the language, grammar and wording used in various administrative text appearing in the Forum. However, there is no reason yet for me to have faith in the survival of this Forum.

Case in point is the removal (deletion) today of several threads that were previously posted in the "Class Management" section. The Owner is oblivious to the fact that "ownership" does not grant a right to delete posts to the Owner. The implied readiness of this Owner to restrict the freedom of expression granted to us by the US Constitution will and should certainly drive any thinking Laser sailor away from this medium.

The argument that "the forum is no longer officially associated with the ILCA in anyway" does not grant the Owner any justifiable reason to "erase the history" by censoring thoughts that were previously expressed regarding the management of this Forum.

Yes. We have time. We will need to wait... wait for this Owner to grow up, mature, and educate himself over time about human rights, internet ethics, and the laws.

We did away with kings in USA more than two centuries ago. The Laser community will surely not tolerate a dictator who offers such a valuable service to Laser sailors, but only under his autocratic and ill-conceived terms.

I thank you very much, Ken, for your level headed presence in this Forum.

Best regards,

Shevy Gunter
Member, ILCA NA

PS. Yes! "Separation of church and state" was surely a good thing, indeed. The "state" here is Bradley, and the "church" is the Laser community.
Compliance issue in HTML?

I use Opera for various reasons and it works with all of the web pages that I have visited in the past six months or so. The new home does not present properly. The background does not show up thus that strange filler around the sides is my background. Is it me or have they broken a few HTML conventions?

One issue I do have being a member and a non-racer is the stated objectives of the organization:

"The International Laser Class Association is a member organization focused on providing one design racing world wide. This site is dedicated to the North American Region."

This is not consistent with the ILCA Constitution. Preserving the monetary value of my laser is not what brought me to join the association (see reasons to join). This objective does not provide me with a compelling reason to continue as a member. I hope this is not reflective of the executive's beliefs but rather an oversight.

The ILCA Constitution says:

1) to provide a medium of echange of information amoung Laser sailors throughout the world and to enhance the enjoyment of these
2) to promote and develop Laser class racing in all countries, under uniform rules; and
3) to encourage and foster the enjoyment of the sporting and recreational aspects of sailing.

Now that is worth paying for!

Bruce MacInnis


Thread starter #11
The forum is 'starting over' and post calling me names were removed to provide a fresh start for the forum. How would you feel if I put "Shevy's is a nut and is doing everything wrong" on the front of

The US Constitution applies to the government limiting your freedom of speech. This is a private enterprise and as in the TOS when you signed up, your post may be edited, deleted, or moved at the discretion of the Moderators and Site Owners.


Thread starter #12
Hi Bruce, We posted around the same time and I didn't see your until after I posted mine. This forum doesn't fall under the rules of the ILCA as it is a private site, just like or There are no rules regarding the content unless it is an Official class forum which this is not.



I was refering to the site not this forum.

Reading your prior post and having read the TOS, I do not agree with your philosophy, although from a technical and legal perspective you may have the right to change and delete, so long as these do not change the import of what has been said to make it into a tortuous comment.

A friend of mine tells me that the manipulation of information by those who have the means has been a contentious topic since the first bulletin boards, which he helped set up in Berkley long ago. Generally, where this ability has been exercised, the board/forum has failed to retain the more relevant contributors. You may not always agree with what is said, but deliberately removing the references does little but destroy the reliability of the content of the site. There is nothing more frustrating with the web than its lack of persistence of content. Here today, gone tomorrow, leads me to change my bookmarks to sources that do not change or go away. The technology of the site is OK and it can flourish with a hands off approach.

Good luck,


Thread starter #14
Hi Bruce,

Please don't get me wrong. I don't plan on deleting or changing any post. Those where removed because the issue is over, and I want the forum to start of with good post on it. Shevy can rant and rave all he wants to and I am not going to delete it unless he is really flaming someone. I would like to take a hands off approach and let the forum go and grow. This will hopefully be the case, but as far as legallity goes, the right to moderate is here although I don't plan to use it.


Thread starter #15
Owner wrote:
> your post may be edited, deleted, or moved at the
> discretion of the Moderators and Site Owners.

I have no place in such a Forum.

My membership is henceforth over.

Good luck,

Dr. Shevy Gunter
Editor, drLaser
Member, ILCA NA

PS. The footnote "This is the Official website for all your Laser Questions!" is a fallacy. It is in fact illegal.

I DON'T GET YOU PEOPLE! So what if someone screws up on a damn copyright or edits a friking post. WHO CARES! The whole god damn purpose of this forum was so laser sailers could talk and enjoy each others presence which is so harshly starved in the real world! I love this sight and i admire bradley for taking his owne time to work on it which he does very well! Who the hell do you think you are shevy?!? Brad is a good guy and all you ever do is give him lip. He means well and so does the forum. you're lucky he even puts up with your constant bickering. So i speak for myself when i say i'm glad you're leaving.
We must realize that even though Shevy is critical in his evaluation that the forum needs people of his laser experiance and knowledge. Regardless of his somtimes incensitive, blunt communication method his general contribution to the forum will be missed.!! :(


Thread starter #18
[quote:9ebbd8166b="kwilson"] his general contribution to the forum will be missed.!! :([/quote:9ebbd8166b]

well............ Actually