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New ISAF ILCA Plaque

jeffers

Active Member
Came across a picture of one, I would say a definite caveat emptor until the current dispute is resolved.

This is on a UK built boat (the boat is currently for sale, advertised as never having been in the water).
 

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Biggie

New Member
That's old news. ILCA showed a picture of the new plaque in the summer newsletter. You must not be a class member.
 

jeffers

Active Member
That's old news. ILCA showed a picture of the new plaque in the summer newsletter. You must not be a class member.
Correct like probably 90% of Laser sailors I am not a personal member of ILCA, your point is what exactly?

It was posted here so the general population can see what they are like and know to think twice about buying a boat with this plaque as if BKI win they have already stated boats carrying this plaque will not be considered class legal in any resulting class (I would guess you could always offer to pay a royalty directly to BKI but who wants the hassle of that).
 
Correct like probably 90% of Laser sailors I am not a personal member of ILCA, your point is what exactly?

It was posted here so the general population can see what they are like and know to think twice about buying a boat with this plaque as if BKI win they have already stated boats carrying this plaque will not be considered class legal in any resulting class (I would guess you could always offer to pay a royalty directly to BKI but who wants the hassle of that).
Several 1000 boats have been made that have this plaque. So who is going to explain that you can sail this boat but not that boat beacuse of the plaque...?
ILCA can decide that bathtubs can be legally sailed in their events. Same with ISAF and the olympics. Bruce will HAVE to accept ALL lasers as class legal.
 

jeffers

Active Member
Several 1000 boats have been made that have this plaque. So who is going to explain that you can sail this boat but not that boat beacuse of the plaque...?
ILCA can decide that bathtubs can be legally sailed in their events. Same with ISAF and the olympics. Bruce will HAVE to accept ALL lasers as class legal.
Not if the Laser loses and ceases to exist due to the fact that they can no longer build boats.

If Bruce wins and the new Kirby Torch class comes into existence then he has already publicly stated boats with these plaques will not be class legal.

An unlikely scenario but one that is possible and is probably the reason why not many new boats are being sold. I do doubt that there are 1000's of these new plaques in existence although it would be interesting to know what PSA are putting on their boats as they have a valid agreement and are still paying royalties to BKI (or were when there was last any news about this).

There is a brand new boat with such a plaque that I know of that is for sale at a very good price and has not sold whereas older boats have.
 

Deimos

Member
... although it would be interesting to know what PSA are putting on their boats as they have a valid agreement and are still paying royalties to BKI (or were when there was last any news about this).
(Without any knowledge as to what PSA are doing), if I were PSA I would be putting both plaques in each boat - thus class legal as a Torch and class legal as a Laser (whatever the outcome).

There is a brand new boat with such a plaque that I know of that is for sale at a very good price and has not sold whereas older boats have.
If I were looking for a boat, there is no way on earth I'd buy one with a "new" plaque - because I would in effect be betting on the outcome of a US legal case. And one where people with far more knowledge than I believe it worth spending lots of money to pursue the case. So why would I take the risk ?

Ian
 

torrid

Just sailing
The sticker says, for better or worse, it is ISAF approved. Most racing falls under the domain of the ISAF via national associations, class associations, and local sailing clubs. Compare all that to the imaginary Torch class association.
 

Deimos

Member
The sticker says, for better or worse, it is ISAF approved. Most racing falls under the domain of the ISAF via national associations, class associations, and local sailing clubs. ....
But the ISAF are also being taken to court - and the courts might find against them. And should that happen they might not be able to act just as they want and might be obliged/forced to .... who knows what but under such circumstances they might not have the freedom to carry on "business as usual" with regards to the Laser/Torch.

And even if the courts don't find against the ISAF, they can still find in favour of Kirby and that would mean the end of the Laser class as nobody could build any. So the ISAF could still recognise the few Lasers built with the new plaque, but most racing would be with Torches - and it sounds like the few Lasers would not be legal Torches. And that would put things beyond the control of the ISAF (except the few hundred ? "new" Lasers distributed around the world could race against each other - if the owners could find each other and loved travelling to race against a couple of other boats).

Ian
 
But the ISAF are also being taken to court - and the courts might find against them. And should that happen they might not be able to act just as they want and might be obliged/forced to .... who knows what but under such circumstances they might not have the freedom to carry on "business as usual" with regards to the Laser/Torch.

And even if the courts don't find against the ISAF, they can still find in favour of Kirby and that would mean the end of the Laser class as nobody could build any. So the ISAF could still recognise the few Lasers built with the new plaque, but most racing would be with Torches - and it sounds like the few Lasers would not be legal Torches. And that would put things beyond the control of the ISAF (except the few hundred ? "new" Lasers distributed around the world could race against each other - if the owners could find each other and loved travelling to race against a couple of other boats).

Ian
No way. If ISAF want they can kick Lasers out of the olympics. How many europe dinghys wheres sold last year? Ynglings? FDs..?
 

Deimos

Member
No way. If ISAF want they can kick Lasers out of the olympics. How many europe dinghys wheres sold last year? Ynglings? FDs..?
To clarify what I meant, if Kirby wins I have the impression that he may get ownership of the moulds, builders manual, etc.. He will have sacked the builder (and, if the courts find in his favour,) nobody can build a Laser unless that are approved by Kirby, etc. So ISAF might not be able to get any Lasers to be sailed in the Olympics.

Of course they might opt to sail a boat that looks just like a Laser, but it could not be one and could not be built to the Laser design (so it would not be a Laser). They would have to change the definition of what a Laser is and thus it would be a different boat (with different rules) so they would in effect be changing the class shortly before the Olympics ...

At least that is how I understand thing (which might be wrong) and so much depends on the detailed outcome of the court case.

Ian
 

Wavedancer

Upside down?
Staff member
Let's hope that this complex issue will be resolved in 2014.
In the meantime, just go sailing...

Happy New Year!
 

AlanD

Former ISAF Laser Measurer
No way. If ISAF want they can kick Lasers out of the olympics. How many europe dinghys wheres sold last year? Ynglings? FDs..?
The best thing that could happen to the class is being kicked out of the Olympics, it doing the class more harm than good. Better still, kick sailing out of the Olympics and we might get sailing going again at the grass roots level.

ISAF needs the Laser class, not the other way round. The latest thing is that we're going to lose the Laser World Championships as a class event. ISAF wants to set up a World tour of 25 boats, with the top 10 competing in a separate event to become World Champion, it's all about media rights etc.
 
To clarify what I meant, if Kirby wins I have the impression that he may get ownership of the moulds, builders manual, etc.. He will have sacked the builder (and, if the courts find in his favour,) nobody can build a Laser unless that are approved by Kirby, etc. So ISAF might not be able to get any Lasers to be sailed in the Olympics.

Of course they might opt to sail a boat that looks just like a Laser, but it could not be one and could not be built to the Laser design (so it would not be a Laser). They would have to change the definition of what a Laser is and thus it would be a different boat (with different rules) so they would in effect be changing the class shortly before the Olympics ...

At least that is how I understand thing (which might be wrong) and so much depends on the detailed outcome of the court case.

Ian
OK, lets say this happens. Bruce is then going to say:"those who bought a boat with the wrong sticker now own a worthless boat..... losers!" People who do not even know there was a court case or the boat had a sticker... OR is he going to say that everybody is welcome as long as the new boats get stickers.. Lets say 2000 boats @ 5000 dollar each have been made in the meantime. 10 mill worth of new boats to landfill because of a sticker..? Come on. Not going to happen.
 

whatever

Member
To clarify what I meant, if Kirby wins I have the impression that he may get ownership of the moulds, builders manual, etc.. He will have sacked the builder (and, if the courts find in his favour,) nobody can build a Laser unless that are approved by Kirby, etc. So ISAF might not be able to get any Lasers to be sailed in the Olympics.


Ian
I wonder who has physical possession of the master moulds? Clearly, there are builders who are aligned with Kirby who have builder moulds, but the moulds required to make new tooling?

I don't think you should think in terms of one side or the other "winning" the court case. More likely, any judgement will be much more nuanced, with each side winning some points and losing others. But, going back to the master moulds, I don't recall Kirby asking the court to grant him ownership of these, so he either has them now, or the court case will not affect who has the moulds.

Also, Kirby has not asked the court to force the ISAF to recognize the Torch class, so what gets sailed in future Torch regattas is likely to be largely out of his control. Also, as others have pointed out, banning Lasers will get him a lot of bad will from sailors who are caught in the middle of a dispute over which they have no control.
 

torrid

Just sailing
Kirby's threat only has any meaning if he gets new builders AND a new class association up and functional. Regardless of any court verdict, I don't consider either of these very likely. And even then, the "counterfeit" boats would only effectively be banned from any national-level regatta. This is meaningless to local-level sailors.
 

Deimos

Member
I wonder who has physical possession of the master moulds? Clearly, there are builders who are aligned with Kirby who have builder moulds, but the moulds required to make new tooling?
...But, going back to the master moulds, I don't recall Kirby asking the court to grant him ownership of these, so he either has them now, or the court case will not affect who has the moulds.
From "Demand For Jury Trial" (original complaint court document from Kirby - I remembered reading it)
E. That Defendants immediately forfeit and return to Kirby all copies of the Construction Manual, along with all production tooling, moulds, and plugs associated with the manufacture of Kirby Sailboats;

I don't think you should think in terms of one side or the other "winning" the court case. More likely, any judgement will be much more nuanced, with each side winning some points and losing others.
I would agree. But, I can't see Kirby being very happy with LPE as a builder so suspect that, subject to the detailed court decision(s), if atall possible LPE will be removed as a builder (but I can't remember the exact conditions for sacking a builder in the various LPE/Kirby contracts).

Also, Kirby has not asked the court to force the ISAF to recognize the Torch class, so what gets sailed in future Torch regattas is likely to be largely out of his control. Also, as others have pointed out, banning Lasers will get him a lot of bad will from sailors who are caught in the middle of a dispute over which they have no control.
I agree. My thoughts were more that if Kirby "wins", there will be no Laser class (as Kirby can't use the name Laser and LPE can't build boats to the design/builders manual).
Somebody above posted that Kirby has apparently said that Lasers with the "new" plaques will not be considered as meeting the Torch class rules [Jeffers] "If Bruce wins and the new Kirby Torch class comes into existence then he has already publicly stated boats with these plaques will not be class legal."

I don't know how much power/control the ISAF have in the matter, particularly should Kirby "win".

Ian
 
From "Demand For Jury Trial" (original complaint court document from Kirby - I remembered reading it)
E. That Defendants immediately forfeit and return to Kirby all copies of the Construction Manual, along with all production tooling, moulds, and plugs associated with the manufacture of Kirby Sailboats;


I would agree. But, I can't see Kirby being very happy with LPE as a builder so suspect that, subject to the detailed court decision(s), if atall possible LPE will be removed as a builder (but I can't remember the exact conditions for sacking a builder in the various LPE/Kirby contracts).


I agree. My thoughts were more that if Kirby "wins", there will be no Laser class (as Kirby can't use the name Laser and LPE can't build boats to the design/builders manual).
Somebody above posted that Kirby has apparently said that Lasers with the "new" plaques will not be considered as meeting the Torch class rules [Jeffers] "If Bruce wins and the new Kirby Torch class comes into existence then he has already publicly stated boats with these plaques will not be class legal."

I don't know how much power/control the ISAF have in the matter, particularly should Kirby "win".

Ian
I think ISAF have plenty of arm-twisting power. They "own" the class association as well as the Olympic status. Both give the possibility to say to BK: "OK you won the court case, but now we have to make this work, if not the olympic status is gone" And for those who think that losing olympic status is good for the class... forget it. Look at Europe Dinghy, FD, Yngling, Soling. All those boats have lost or are close to losing their international class status. Few if any new boats are being built. A design competition for a mens/womens singlehander olympic class such as with Nacra and FX would be quite attractive to e.g. RS.
 

whatever

Member
If Kirby "wins" (it turns out that the royalties have not been paid), I think that it is very likely Kirby would sell Torch plaques to owners of Lasers that have the new ISAF/ICLA plaques.
 

AlanD

Former ISAF Laser Measurer
The best thing that could happen to the class is being kicked out of the Olympics, it doing the class more harm than good. Better still, kick sailing out of the Olympics and we might get sailing going again at the grass roots level.
I think ISAF have plenty of arm-twisting power. They "own" the class association as well as the Olympic status. Both give the possibility to say to BK: "OK you won the court case, but now we have to make this work, if not the olympic status is gone" And for those who think that losing olympic status is good for the class... forget it. Look at Europe Dinghy, FD, Yngling, Soling. All those boats have lost or are close to losing their international class status. Few if any new boats are being built. A design competition for a mens/womens singlehander olympic class such as with Nacra and FX would be quite attractive to e.g. RS.
From Australian perspective, you would be lucky to be able to put together a national fleet of 20 boats in any of the existing Olympic classes, other than the Laser. No one here sails 470's, Finns, RS:X and 49's unless they are doing an Olympic campaign. Whilst it appears Stars have been dropped, there would be lucky to be 5 in country. Olympic status has been well known as being a death nail to a class, which is why the ILCA resisted Olympic status for 2 decades.

The strength of the Laser class comes from club level sailors and not the 20-30 elite sailors which the ILCA, ISAF and our national Laser Class associations and national sailing bodies dote over at our expense.
 

Old Dude

Member
From Australian perspective, you would be lucky to be able to put together a national fleet of 20 boats in any of the existing Olympic classes, other than the Laser. No one here sails 470's, Finns, RS:X and 49's unless they are doing an Olympic campaign. Whilst it appears Stars have been dropped, there would be lucky to be 5 in country. Olympic status has been well known as being a death nail to a class, which is why the ILCA resisted Olympic status for 2 decades.

The strength of the Laser class comes from club level sailors and not the 20-30 elite sailors which the ILCA, ISAF and our national Laser Class associations and national sailing bodies dote over at our expense.
Alan makes a good point here and prior. I agree that the strength of the Laser class should come from club level sailors but it does not because they don't join the class association to the same extent that the top sailors do. I find it odd that so many here and in other forums have so much to say about what a class association should do while they do not bother to join the class association. I don't blame the class for supporting and aligning with the wishes of those that do join. Afterall it is the duty of the class officers to represent the members. The problem of club level sailors not being represented belongs at the laps of club level sailors of which I am one... though I did join the class.

As to the comments by others of boats/plaques not being recognized, I suppose anything is possible but this seems a bit chicken little the sky is falling to me. I would not hesitate to buy a boat with the current ISAF plaque on it. My guess is that whomever wins and whatever class prevails will recognize and include all boats Laser and Torches should they ever be built and sold. Even if BKI wins on all counts I would bet the Laser class continues.

As someone said earlier, hopefully it all gets resolved in 2014 but even if not the dispute does not seem to be having any significant effect on the sailors/fleets which is good news and a credit to those running the class association.
 

Wavedancer

Upside down?
Staff member
As to the comments by others of boats/plaques not being recognized, I suppose anything is possible but this seems a bit chicken little the sky is falling to me. I would not hesitate to buy a boat with the current ISAF plaque on it. My guess is that whomever wins and whatever class prevails will recognize and include all boats Laser and Torches should they ever be built and sold. Even if BKI wins on all counts I would bet the Laser class continues.

As someone said earlier, hopefully it all gets resolved in 2014 but even if not the dispute does not seem to be having any significant effect on the sailors/fleets which is good news and a credit to those running the class association.
Well said/written.
I will add that the class as we know it may get another name if Kirby/BKI 'wins' (some or most of) the case since I read repeatedly that the Laser name/logo is (and will be) owned by LaserPerformance.
 
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jeffers

Active Member
I believe the only people who can actually kick a class from the Olympics are the IOC (the ISAF only recommends equipment, in theory the IOC could override it). How an equipment change would affect sailing as we are part way through an Olympic cycle would be hard to imagine (if you really care about that sort of thing).

I cannot honestly see BKI wanting to cause issue for the Olympic status at this present despite that fact that a significant majority of the class would like to be distanced from the Olympic band wagon....

Remember he did time his 'sacking' of the builders AFTER the 2012 Olympics specifically so it did not affect the supply of boats for the Olympic event.
 
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