Class Politics More Info for the 2009 Masters Worlds

johnde

New Member
FYI everyone should be checking on the following THREE websites for information

ILCA event mini site.http://events.laserinternational.org/en/events/overview/100z38

NA Region website,

AND

St Mary's Sailing Club Organising Committee Website

Apparently the Local committee is trying to block book hotels so that sailors can stay together. The link from the ILCA minisite to the Venue web site is not working so there is no way you would find out this information. Its a pity someone is not coordinating things but there you go - business as usual!

NA Masters committee, where are you?:(
 
FYI everyone should be checking on the following THREE websites for information

ILCA event mini site.http://events.laserinternational.org/en/events/overview/100z38

NA Region website,

AND

St Mary's Sailing Club Organising Committee Website

Apparently the Local committee is trying to block book hotels so that sailors can stay together. The link from the ILCA minisite to the Venue web site is not working so there is no way you would find out this information. Its a pity someone is not coordinating things but there you go - business as usual!

NA Masters committee, where are you?:(

The link to the host site which is on the Master's site at the ILCA website (ok, my tongue is tied) works for me?
 
Hey, how did I go from being the 63rd application to 91st?

Is this the ranking systems coming into play?
 
Hey, how did I go from being the 63rd application to 91st?

Is this the ranking systems coming into play?

The Canadian and US lists were merged into "North America" so I bet if you count the number of Canadians above you (look at the ISAF ids) then I bet it will make up the difference.
 
The Canadian and US lists were merged into "North America" so I bet if you count the number of Canadians above you (look at the ISAF ids) then I bet it will make up the difference.

That's an issue with living in the US. We are always "under" those dang Canadians!
 
That's an issue with living in the US. We are always "under" those dang Canadians!

The Canadians are my heroes this week, under, over, around, or above. Some electrical workers from Hydro One of Ontario fixed our outage after a week with no power after Ike. So they ain't danged, they are marvelous!
 
North American sailors have applied for 181 spots. We are allocated 35.

There is a suggestion above that North American sailors will be able to secure spots left by countries who do not ask for as many positions as those countries are alloted.

Most countries have already asked for more spaces than their allotment.

Some remaining countries might not fill their quotas. As of this morning, there are 68 available country allocation positions not yet spoken for.

Other countries like UK, "North America," and Australia already have many more applications than allocations.

I realize the selection process is still in its early stages but even if North America were to selfishly assign all the remaining un-spoken for slots to itself, there are currently over seventy NA applications, some from previous world champions, for whom if all 68 remaining invitations were extended, the hosts would need to expand their maximum number of invitations.

Are there emergency discussions happening and alternative plans being made?

It is still almost a year until the event will happen and it is becoming quite obvious the currently planned qualification system may simply send those who signed up first rather than our champions. Is it time to "tack early on the persistent shift," minimize the impact of getting it wrong the first time, and invent a sensible qualification system?

Sure we already said one thing. Certainly some people would be disappointed that their early expectations can not be met.

Certainly no one wants a qualification system that leaves our recent world champions, national champions, North American Champions and best available other competitors sitting out.

On the other hand, if the new qualification system is developed and announced in the very near future, and if that system is a fair system that allows for plenty of advance trip planning for both qualifying and eventual competition in the main event, I believe the best interests of Laser sailing in North America can best be met.
We need to take action now and create a system, one that meets the needs of the actual applications we have actually received. We must accomplish that task within the next few weeks.

The NA Class Association should begin that task by immediatly contacting those who have already applied and telling them, " We have over 180 applicants for only 35 openings. Our original planning was made with no sense that such a large number of sailors would be interested in attending the event. We are abandoning the first come first served allocation system and we will be instituting a qualification system that will allow our best sailors, among those who have expressed interest, to compete in this championship. Further information will be forthcoming."

There is no embarassment in admitting lack of foresight. The only tragedy would be that which comes from a failure to pay attention to what is happening, adjust, present a solution, and lead the implementation of the new process..


Input:
I suggest the qualifications must be settled by early June so travel plans can be made. I suggest we use past recent masters championships, the 2009 North American Masters Champpionships, and resumes based upon performance in ANY regattas held between now and June 1. We can certainly get a good idea about who is performing well by looking at results from the Florida Master series, Midwinters West, The Easter Laser regatta, Midwinters east, The Cedar Point Frostbite series, and any other local regatta held before June.

Finally, I propose we let interested District Secretaries form a committee and make their best decision. They may leave some borderline competitors out and disappoint some sailors, but a decision by thinking concerned humans beats a selection process that merely uses first come first served.

No matter what we do, we must realize that Laser racing is about wind, water, sailboats, and friendly competition. Success in a Laser World Championship must certainly not be defined by being able to find a few minutes on day one of a two month advertised entry period to sit at a computer connected to the internet and fiddle with a keyboard.
 
Wow! Nobody gives a rats patootie about this issue except me.....


I suppose resolution will come when the ILCA and the Canadian hosts decide how many to take off the waiting lists from North America and whether to allow anybody from the waiting lists in other countries as well.

My life education continues to surprise me.
To think Ryan Minth and I used to scream at each other over the phone about how Laser sailing things ought to be run. Each of us was convinced we needed to do EXACTLY the right thing for all the passionate Laser sailors all over the region and that doing it the "other guy's obviously wrong way" would be somethng horrible for which we would certainly have to answer.
If we had known that nobody but the two of us cared in the slightest we might still be friends today.

Anyway.. back at the ranch...

I have long since begun teh process related to hosting the 26th edition...25th Anniversary of the 1984 Regatta .....Easter Laser Regatta not very many weeks from now. If you would love to tune up for the masters worlds, see a bunch of old friends, make new ones, or just do some sailing earlier than your season starts. I would love to see you in Austin for the event.

An event whose quality certainly matters to me.


so I will refocus on that which I can influence.
 
OK. I'll chime in. I think the spaces should go to those who have qualified for the event via their performance in the qualifying events. How fast you were able to type on your computer does not necessarly translate to how fast you can sail. In the situation we have now I think it would be unfair to leave those that are the best sailors on the side line because they were not sitting at their computers at 3:00 AM on the opening day like they were shopping the door buster sales on the day after Thanksgiving. Tie breakers go to the one that did register first.

I think the left over spaces from countries that can not send enough sailors to fill their allotment should be evenly distributed among all other countries needing additional slots.

Either way we do need to work with the total 350 spaces allowed. An argument at this point that we need to allow 500 boats is a wasted energy argument for 2009. Save that one for 2010.
 
So the rankings are done and I'm WAAAAYYY down at the bottom, exactly where I should be. The NOR says entry opens for "initial allocated places" on Dec. 4 and closes on Jan. 16. It then says that entry opens for "extra places" on Jan. 23.

I take this to mean the first 35 slots allocated for NA sailors will be filled during the Dec. 4-Jan. 16, then mere mortals should expect an e-mail no sooner than Jan. 23 if a slot is available?
 
So the rankings are done and I'm WAAAAYYY down at the bottom, exactly where I should be. The NOR says entry opens for "initial allocated places" on Dec. 4 and closes on Jan. 16. It then says that entry opens for "extra places" on Jan. 23.

I take this to mean the first 35 slots allocated for NA sailors will be filled during the Dec. 4-Jan. 16, then mere mortals should expect an e-mail no sooner than Jan. 23 if a slot is available?

The whole group is littered with "mere mortals" as it was a first come first serve registration, (at least that is how I'm seeing it now). If they do actually make the entries by "qualification rank", i.e. where you finished in the qualification events and how many qualifying events did you sail in and so on... then it will turn the current list upside down and us "mortals" will slide to the bottom and the "cream" as they say will rise to the top.
 
So of the 200+ people from North America who applied to enter were ranked. The top 35 on the list are guaranteed the allocated spots. After that, it's who registered first. So if you ranked #36 but registered the day after the guy ranked #200, it's the guy ranked #200 who gets priority.

Is my assessment correct?
 
So of the 200+ people from North America who applied to enter were ranked. The top 35 on the list are guaranteed the allocated spots. After that, it's who registered first. So if you ranked #36 but registered the day after the guy ranked #200, it's the guy ranked #200 who gets priority.

Is my assessment correct?

As I understand it you are correct.
 
Hmmmm... time to stir the pot on this topic again it seems. According to the 2009 World Championship Qualification System that was published by Sherri Campbell on March 18th:
"1) To be eligible you must have: a) Competed in a Laser World Championship (Master, Senior or Radial) in the past 5 years, or
b) Competed in a major North American Master's event (North Americans, US or Canadian Nationals, MMWE, etc.) AND finished in the top 75% of your fleet.
2) If, after satisfying the above, there are more applicants than spots available then entries will be taken in order of registration.
NOTE: You must notify the ILCA-NA of your qualification under 1)(a) or 1)(b) in order to be ranked before those who fall into category 2) above. "

I interpreted this as being two tiers: those that qualified, followed by those that didn't. The way the ranking have been done though, there are three tiers: all sailors that qualify by 1(a) are ranked before those that qualify by 1(b), regardless of their application date. This is somewhat discouraging for anyone new to Masters sailing.

I am very curious to see how many berths North America actually gets in that the event has been over-subscribed by over 100 boats.
 
Hmmmm... time to stir the pot on this topic again it seems. According to the 2009 World Championship Qualification System that was published by Sherri Campbell on March 18th:
"1) To be eligible you must have: a) Competed in a Laser World Championship (Master, Senior or Radial) in the past 5 years, or
b) Competed in a major North American Master's event (North Americans, US or Canadian Nationals, MMWE, etc.) AND finished in the top 75% of your fleet.
2) If, after satisfying the above, there are more applicants than spots available then entries will be taken in order of registration.
NOTE: You must notify the ILCA-NA of your qualification under 1)(a) or 1)(b) in order to be ranked before those who fall into category 2) above. "

I interpreted this as being two tiers: those that qualified, followed by those that didn't. The way the ranking have been done though, there are three tiers: all sailors that qualify by 1(a) are ranked before those that qualify by 1(b), regardless of their application date. This is somewhat discouraging for anyone new to Masters sailing.

I am very curious to see how many berths North America actually gets in that the event has been over-subscribed by over 100 boats.


Spot on. Being the "Worlds" with limited berths I think they should take it a step further and rank forms by the most "qualified" skippers first. So the folks that won in previous worlds or the MMWE or NA's should be near the top and then trickle down from there. If you are going to have a qualification system might as well make it count.

But hey don't worry! ANYONE can come to the Masters NA's in Wrightsville Beach in May! They are not so picky! Even better, it's also great open atlantic ocean sailing and I'll bet it'll be warmer.......

That reminds me. I need to go bump that topic..
 
I'm with you Rob. The issue I see is that you could have WON the North Americans and still get bumped by someone who finished dead last if they attended a previous World Masters event.
 
Update. It looks like everyone who entered has a solid chance of making it past the cut now that the entry limit is 400. With the sailors who have already declined, there are 438 applications for 400 spots. There are currently 156 spots offered who have not entered and have until 12/26 to make payment or their spot is recycled.

Let's hope that next year there is a qulaifying system of some sort in place. I must say that overall, it looks like they have it right. I am not qualifying yet, but I have not sailed in enough major regatta's to merit a high qualification, which seems fair to me.



I would guess that even the 10 late applications that were submitted will be able to go.
 
I am certain all those involved did their very best to easily hurdle what they believed would be the obstacles.

It is always easy to whine after somebody else sets up a system.

It is also easy to ask those who previously cared and who have set up systems previously about what worked or didn't and what those with previous experience would have done.

Next time we will have the option to ask all the previous sailors organizers, and hosts ( with a new addition of the 2008-9 sailors) how things were done, what worked and how to improve upon their performance.

The basic simple truth is, If you want next time to be different, get involved and take care of thart part of the organization about which you personally care.

It is not a daunting task, nobody expects you to spend ten seconds working on that which does not concern you. With the exception of our paid staff who have specific job descriptions ( and who do lots more as they see fit) the positions are volunteer not paid.

2009 is already water under the bridge, over the dam, down the drain. There still may be volunteer jobs related to the actual hosting which I am certain the hosts would love to have filled... but our concern now is, "How do we remember to set up a selection system for future masters worlds ( 2010??)
We must ALWAYS use teh system so in years when we need it, the system is already polished from repeated use.

My pet project?? Make certain we INVITE our recent champions rather than make them remind us who they are. Make certain our current NA-ILCA champions are in a position to DECLINE spaces rather than have to read websites and send specific emails to qualify.

Many, if not the majority, of our Laser sailors are people who really do not do the "organizational thing." If our entry systems are designed to "finally get that guy who always registers at the last minute to miss one event so he straightens up and lives right."
...We are deliberatly driving away most of our unique sampling of the world's diverse sailors.

That Laser sailors are loners and a pain socially is simply reality. Many can't get a ride on a team boat. Many can't keep crew on their own boats. Many just don't like hanging out that much with anybody.

Our Class leaders need to learn to revel in their accomplishment when they manage to assemble a fleet .

You might think managing Laser sailors is like herding cats...

No..Cats are easier to herd.

But with Laser sailors, just like cats, if all you do is put the dry food out for five minutes on an eat or starve system...the creatures will go live somewhere else where they feel wanted.

THis year's example: Scott Young gets an email and a phone call if he fails to answer the email, "Are you taking your spot at the Halifax worlds?"

Eric Faust won in Houston and is on a list that says, "Nobody told us you ever won anything." He should have a spot available for him to decline.

Says me.

It really IS that simple.
 
I don't have a whole "system" but I do have thoughts:

last five years NA champions in all divisions
Last year top five
2 years back top four
three years back top three
four years back top two
Five back just teh champs.

Als. Any sailor who finished top five at the worlds when he was the same relative age in his division would get to go this time>>>>>HUH???

By that I mean if at age 37 you were fourth at teh masters worlds and you are now 47 you get in as our rep in masters this time.

I would assign those spots after the first set above.
I wouldalso let anybody who has ever won be our rep again but I am not certtain which priority I would give.

Then.... Sailors who have won open NA events should be considered. we need to decide which events top consider and why.


Somewhere Way way down the list would be first come first served.

In fact "first come first served should only be available if the spaces are available for sailors who ahve never been in a Laser regatta ever and we have no rational way to assigning priority...

Of course that would also leave out past champs in other sailboats who would come ahead of the first come first served group.
 
i would just like the ability to drive to Nova Scotia and sail..... sucks to be 25 and not all that impressive :D
 
How about a series of qualifying regatta's ? East Coast, West Coast etc. After all, aren't we supposed to encourage more laser sailing. If you make it known beforehand, and have a number of quallifying places available and 4 or 5 different regatta's at different venue's there can be no griping. If you don't show up at any of them, how bad did you want to go anyhow? You could always allow an additional number of "wild card" entries by resume for extenuating circumstances, but it would be a fair way to decide that is determined "on the water" as opposed to some kind of mathematical matrix. Imagine the participation at the "Last Chance qualifier".
 
So of the 200+ people from North America who applied to enter were ranked. The top 35 on the list are guaranteed the allocated spots. After that, it's who registered first. So if you ranked #36 but registered the day after the guy ranked #200, it's the guy ranked #200 who gets priority.

Is my assessment correct?


I don't think so.

There is no mention in the website published rules about "ranking." All it says is if "there are more applicants than spots available then entries will be taken in order of registration."
1. to be eligible:
a...you must to have sailed in one fo the last five worlds.

or

b you must have "Competed in a major North American Master's event (North Americans, US or Canadian Nationals, MMWE, etc.) AND finished in the top 75% of your fleet."

There are no exceptions written. If more than 35 sign up the applications will be taken in order of registration. ( I think that in the rules "registration" has to mean "application" as you cannot register until you are offered a spot.)

There is no mention of what order would have been used had fewer than our allocation signed up but that is now moot.
 
I don't think so.

There is no mention in the website published rules about "ranking." All it says is if "there are more applicants than spots available then entries will be taken in order of registration."
1. to be eligible:
a...you must to have sailed in one fo the last five worlds.

or

b you must have "Competed in a major North American Master's event (North Americans, US or Canadian Nationals, MMWE, etc.) AND finished in the top 75% of your fleet."

There are no exceptions written. If more than 35 sign up the applications will be taken in order of registration. ( I think that in the rules "registration" has to mean "application" as you cannot register until you are offered a spot.)

There is no mention of what order would have been used had fewer than our allocation signed up but that is now moot.

I'm still confused by the rules, but I THINK this is what is happening.

Of the ~200 who signed up, roughly 150 qualified under 1a) or 1b). These people were ranked top to bottom. The first 130 or so have received offers, and the remaining 20 are at the top of the waiting list. The 50 who didn't qualify have been ranked by order of application. They are next on the waiting list.

However, I think what you are tyring to point out is:
1. You didn't agree with the initial qualification system
2. Given that, you don't think the system outlined is being followed as written
Correct?
 
I think he is also questioning if the ranking system was actually used/applied as the rule stated and there are some language issues with the rule regarding "Application/Applicant" and "Registered".
 
My careful reading of teh NA ILCA website says to me "there is no system!"

The only way to make sense of teh rules as posted is to ad some of your own "it must mean this" knowledge.

I am pretty certain the writers MEANT to have the rule say ..

Everybody who files a timely application with the ILCA and who sends an email before November 13, 2008 to Sherry claiming to be eligible under #1 will be issued an invitation ahead of those who fail to do so.

Eerybody else who wants to enter will be taken in order of their initial application to teh ILCA.


Unfortunatly...The NA-ILCA website rules do NOT say that.

The brief version of what is posted on teh ILCA site is:

if more sailors apply than thre are available berths we will offer entry only to those who qualify under #1 and only on a first come first served basis.

There is no mention of a ranking system and a selection process other than first come first served.


Thye may be applying some sort of formula but no such formula is publised .
 
Happy New Year everyone!

Qualification systems for the various Laser Class World Championships always draw close scrutiny, in particular from the sea lawyers looking for a loophole to climb through. With the Master's having a qualification system for the first time its no suprise, I guess, at the legs this topic has grown on TLF!

The underlying philosophy of the Master's qualification system has been discussed before but I suppose a quick summary is worthwhile: the intent of the qualification rules was to divide sailors into three groups: those that have participated in a "recent" Master Worlds, those that are active Master's sailors and then everyone else. Within each of those three groups the sailors are then ranked by order of application for entry.

A key element is that the sailors were responsible for sending to the ILCA-NA office, before the December 1 deadline, some sort of documentation to indicate which group they belonged to. Unfortunately, a few sailors didn't send the information and ended up in the third category when they might rightly have been in one of the first two groups.

I will agree that without the above mindset the wording of the qualification rules can be read differently by some. Certainly we can argue about this interpretation, or that... but, just as with the Class Rules, there is only one opinion that counts, that of the Executive Secretary and she has consistently applied the above interpretation throughout the entire process.

The good news, however, is that ILCA has assured the North American Region that all further berth reallocations will come to us. As issues start to surface (changing plans, the impact of the economic downturn, the difficulty of getting a charter boat, etc) there are people not taking their berths which is beginning to open up plenty of slots for those still on the list. Right now there is every indication that those still awaiting berths will get them in the next round of reallocations. In fact, if the numerology currently on the ILCA website is correct then all of those on the list will get in and,in fact, the event will be slightly undersubscribed.

For better or worse, ILCA will apply this system to all future world championships, including the Master's. From ILCA's side, the primary intent is to prevent a Master's Worlds from being overrun by local entries, ensuring a "true" World Championship. As such, when the event is "off continent" the initial North American allocation may not end up having much bearing on our final number of entries (e.g. compare the Australian entry list to their initial allocation for Halifax). In addition, the Master's Worlds are a truly unique event, where for many its as much about the event as it is about the competition. As such, until its clearly demonstrated to be broken, the above scheme (albeit with better wording) will probably remain a key component of future ILCA-NA Master's Worlds qualification systems.
 

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