Class Politics micro compass
- Thread starter jimmy
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Braecrest
Member
Good question, I for one hope not, if we permit a micro digital compass, what is there to stop more and more electronics being added on later down the road, raising the cost of competitive laser racing, and defeating the true beauty of the Laser one design, sailor vs. sailor, not boat vs. boat.
On the flip side, I think it would be great for individuals training by themselves to have a digital compass, anemometer, speed log, and hell, even a gps unit, if these items were made laser friendly, this would help individuals train harder and get more out of their time on the water, but wouldn't put other sailors at a disadvantage on the race course (except of course for the increased skill level)
These are just my personal opinions, maybe I'm completly nuts...-Skip
On the flip side, I think it would be great for individuals training by themselves to have a digital compass, anemometer, speed log, and hell, even a gps unit, if these items were made laser friendly, this would help individuals train harder and get more out of their time on the water, but wouldn't put other sailors at a disadvantage on the race course (except of course for the increased skill level)
These are just my personal opinions, maybe I'm completly nuts...-Skip
Sail4SC
Member
Last time I check.. digital compasses were significantly cheaper then their traditional counterparts.. like this one for $19.97 from Radio Shack.. many others too.
http://RSK.imageg.net/graphics/product_images/pRS1C-2326388w345.jpg
http://RSK.imageg.net/graphics/product_images/pRS1C-2326388w345.jpg
LooserLu
LooserLu
Hi,
all I know, "we", the Lasersailors ourselves (here I mean that ones, that are members of the ILCA and have had joining the voting for that question), did vote against using digital compasses on the Laser at official races.
This voting has been made in the mid or the end of the 90ties. So, this decission (not to permit digital compasses) is not so far away form our times. But to the other side compare: a Personal Computer of the mid of the 90ties with a brand-new one.... Time is running fast and I also think, that his "monsters of compasses" we have to use, should go in retirement in future.
Today, nearly every simple no-name 30-Euro-"Regatta"-wrist-watch from the discounter already has a digital compass inside and we have to keep this wrist-watches off every time, if we want to race at a big event, in reason the measurers have to say, that our rules do not allow such equipement.
Not that I'm the opinion, a compass of a wrist-watch is very helpful during the race, but also this old compasses on the deck do disturb sailing (f.e. downwinds in low winds, where we use to sit exact there,w here such a Silva/Nexus is to mount), are heavy and and...and ...
Such digital-compasses, f.e. like the "Tacktic" or others, that are mounted to the mast perhaps are much more friendly to the Laserite than this old-styled ones from Silva/Nexus.
Make a new petition to the ILCA World Coucil if you want to have a change in that point of the rule.
I would vote to permit digital compasses (for wristwatch and at the mast), too.
Ciao
LooserLu
all I know, "we", the Lasersailors ourselves (here I mean that ones, that are members of the ILCA and have had joining the voting for that question), did vote against using digital compasses on the Laser at official races.
This voting has been made in the mid or the end of the 90ties. So, this decission (not to permit digital compasses) is not so far away form our times. But to the other side compare: a Personal Computer of the mid of the 90ties with a brand-new one.... Time is running fast and I also think, that his "monsters of compasses" we have to use, should go in retirement in future.
Today, nearly every simple no-name 30-Euro-"Regatta"-wrist-watch from the discounter already has a digital compass inside and we have to keep this wrist-watches off every time, if we want to race at a big event, in reason the measurers have to say, that our rules do not allow such equipement.
Not that I'm the opinion, a compass of a wrist-watch is very helpful during the race, but also this old compasses on the deck do disturb sailing (f.e. downwinds in low winds, where we use to sit exact there,w here such a Silva/Nexus is to mount), are heavy and and...and ...
Such digital-compasses, f.e. like the "Tacktic" or others, that are mounted to the mast perhaps are much more friendly to the Laserite than this old-styled ones from Silva/Nexus.
Make a new petition to the ILCA World Coucil if you want to have a change in that point of the rule.
I would vote to permit digital compasses (for wristwatch and at the mast), too.
Ciao
LooserLu
49208
Tentmaker
Sail4SC said:
Anybody try one of the cheap ones like the above - are they sensitive enough to small (3-5 degree) changes ?
I'd like to see the NA Masters take the lead in this, since we seem to be able to "try" new things (the proposed pumping change for example) and since we older farts may actually be able to read big digital numbers.. http://laserforum.org/showthread.php?t=2941
I really like the TickTack micro compass that many other one design fleets are approving. Cost is still high today, but that will change rapidly. Not only are the traditional compasses big and ungainly they are difficult to read on a laser because the boat moves so much and all but the most expensive compasses do not dampen the motion well enough. This is true whether the compass is analog or digital.
I don't understand the issue off anolog vs. digital. As long as it does not have a computer that calculates boat speed, apparent wind etc. what difference does it make if your compass display is analog or digital?
I think the class has made excellent decisions on what to allow and what not to. I trust they will continue to. If/when they revisit the compass issue I'm sure they will make the right decision.
I don't understand the issue off anolog vs. digital. As long as it does not have a computer that calculates boat speed, apparent wind etc. what difference does it make if your compass display is analog or digital?
I think the class has made excellent decisions on what to allow and what not to. I trust they will continue to. If/when they revisit the compass issue I'm sure they will make the right decision.
Hi,
I have a tacktic Micro on my J24, and it replaced a $900. digital from the 90's. It's really cool, solar charged, start timer, easy to read from the side. I've used it on the Laser, and was amazed, frankly. I do hope the Masters let us try them (because I already have one!).
However, it ain't cheap. 400-500. US bucks, with various accessories. It can't be strapped to a rotating mast (because it will tell you where the mast is pointing, not the boat), AND in tactical mode, it does recall your headings, and calculates average wind direction (totally cool, as it figures out port/starboard headings by itsself).
So, the Masters would have to lift the ban on digital compasses, AND compasses with memory, and the ability to calculate, etc. That's two steps.
At 500. with some future bracket, it's only the price of one more sail, and replaces the 100. ronstan watch everyone is using. Plus the plastimo, Nexus or other.
Is it a great idea for the class? I dunno.
Al Russell 182797
I have a tacktic Micro on my J24, and it replaced a $900. digital from the 90's. It's really cool, solar charged, start timer, easy to read from the side. I've used it on the Laser, and was amazed, frankly. I do hope the Masters let us try them (because I already have one!).
However, it ain't cheap. 400-500. US bucks, with various accessories. It can't be strapped to a rotating mast (because it will tell you where the mast is pointing, not the boat), AND in tactical mode, it does recall your headings, and calculates average wind direction (totally cool, as it figures out port/starboard headings by itsself).
So, the Masters would have to lift the ban on digital compasses, AND compasses with memory, and the ability to calculate, etc. That's two steps.
At 500. with some future bracket, it's only the price of one more sail, and replaces the 100. ronstan watch everyone is using. Plus the plastimo, Nexus or other.
Is it a great idea for the class? I dunno.
Al Russell 182797
Georg W.F.
Member
Good points, Al. We are indeed facing two different issues: to allow digital compasses and to allow a computer that calculates which side is headed or lifted. The laser rules do not even allow a compass with rotating numbers (I mean the dial that you can set at a particular number), Since such a manual memory system is not allowed, it would be a HUGE step to allow a computer that does quite a bit more than memorizing.
This also involves a more practical problem: suppose digital compasses would be allowed, then how does a measurer determine whether a compass is simply a compass, or also something more than that (a brain that things for the sailor). Of course, there could be a list of allowed compasses.
GWF
This also involves a more practical problem: suppose digital compasses would be allowed, then how does a measurer determine whether a compass is simply a compass, or also something more than that (a brain that things for the sailor). Of course, there could be a list of allowed compasses.
GWF
Braecrest
Member
Call me traditional, but I love my old magnetic compass.
Furthermore, as a professional mariner (licensed master and harbor pilot) I've seen that the more advanced the electronics gear a ship carries, the less skilled it's crew. Seamanship is a perishable skill for most, and when we come to rely on electronics to do our jobs, we lose that sense and that feel. Some call it a seaman's eye, but it truly is an amazing skill set.
For example, I did a short bit of time on a Coast Guard Icebreaker, and not to belittle that wonderfull organization, but they relied heavliy on their electronics. They had a computer charting system that took feeds from EVERY piece of electronic gear on the bridge. This was amazing, it would plot the ships position with GPS, check the charted depth against the fathometer reading and the know ships draft, it also measured set and drift and could predict the ships future position. The downside was this, it also calculated true wind, but one time when I was on the bridge, the quartermaster was using said system to make his weather report. relying soley on the computer. I looked outside and the true wind was about 100 degrees off from what the computer said and it was also blowing twice as hard, the quartermaster didn't have the wherewithall or the skillset to be able to step outside and tell that the wind was different then what the computer said.
The maritime industry is full of stories of ships running aground because the GPS position was never verified with other means of navigation, or ships sinking because the cargo computer had a glitch in it. These also show that the reliance on electronics can be bad.
I guess the point I'm trying to make is that I agree that advanced electronics are great, but when we use them too much, we become complaicent. And I feel that we laser sailors would be better served if we did not permit a digital compass that calculates for us.
Furthermore, as a professional mariner (licensed master and harbor pilot) I've seen that the more advanced the electronics gear a ship carries, the less skilled it's crew. Seamanship is a perishable skill for most, and when we come to rely on electronics to do our jobs, we lose that sense and that feel. Some call it a seaman's eye, but it truly is an amazing skill set.
For example, I did a short bit of time on a Coast Guard Icebreaker, and not to belittle that wonderfull organization, but they relied heavliy on their electronics. They had a computer charting system that took feeds from EVERY piece of electronic gear on the bridge. This was amazing, it would plot the ships position with GPS, check the charted depth against the fathometer reading and the know ships draft, it also measured set and drift and could predict the ships future position. The downside was this, it also calculated true wind, but one time when I was on the bridge, the quartermaster was using said system to make his weather report. relying soley on the computer. I looked outside and the true wind was about 100 degrees off from what the computer said and it was also blowing twice as hard, the quartermaster didn't have the wherewithall or the skillset to be able to step outside and tell that the wind was different then what the computer said.
The maritime industry is full of stories of ships running aground because the GPS position was never verified with other means of navigation, or ships sinking because the cargo computer had a glitch in it. These also show that the reliance on electronics can be bad.
I guess the point I'm trying to make is that I agree that advanced electronics are great, but when we use them too much, we become complaicent. And I feel that we laser sailors would be better served if we did not permit a digital compass that calculates for us.
LooserLu
LooserLu
Skip,Braecrest said:
nothing to say against your words from my side ( I sail since the end of the 60ties, but I'm only a hobby-sailor, not a tough seaman like you, of course) .
A digital compass for the Laser, in my opinion, only should do the same work like the old analog ones and not more (f.e. such with calculations). This digital compass' perhaps are a bit more precise than the Silva. At least I can't prove this aspect, I have none of that new ones. It would be interesting to compare, which one is more prcise (for recognizing small wind-shifts) and more practical for a racing Laserite. And Skip, I do not say "they" should forbid the analog compass, but "they" in minimum may allow us, to wear our (modern) wristwatches for sailors which today usualy already do have a small (useless) compass inside (I had to buy a new wrist-watch, only for Lasersailing, that has no compass inside and I think that is not ok).
Ciao
LooserLu
Braecrest
Member
LooserLu said:
Good point, I've never owned a wrist watch with a compass built in, but I would imagine such a thing would be nearly worthless on a laser, in order for a compass to be of ANY value in a race or just otherwise, it has to have a fixed reference point, a compass on the wrist would not, and therefore is worth very little.
LooserLu, I believe we have said the exact same things with differant words.