Melges 17!!!

sailordude

New Member
hey i know its a little off subject but has anyone heard about the melges 17? my sailing school had some open house thing on lake minnetonka, mn and one of the melges sales reps Sam Rogers i think his name was and he had a brand new melges 17 there!!! wow was that amazing. it planes on like 15 mph of wind and anything above that it just cruises. its a reallllllly fast light air boat because its like 300 lbs and the rig is like 16! sounds like its pretty cheap too.. i hope it becomes a popular boat.

my bad though it is a laser forum! just wanted to say there AMAZING!
 
Inexpensive boat from Melges Boat Works? Don't count on it. I think a new MC Scow is like $10k
 
they're both pretty ugly IMHO

arent scow designs a little old (for example, international moths havent seen a new scow design in many years)
 
ya but there reallllllllly fast and fun! i got out on an A scow to one of the newest ones on minnetonka... victory. amazing. and how can you not like the lines of a scow it just looks so fast!
 
sailordude said:
ya but there reallllllllly fast and fun! i got out on an A scow to one of the newest ones on minnetonka... victory. amazing. and how can you not like the lines of a scow it just looks so fast!

Hello Gavin,

Could you please tell me more? I've been trying to learn about this boat, but all the demos have been in Florida or the Midwest so far.

Did you take a ride on it? Or was it mostly from watching? In any case, how do you think it would compare with a Laser 2 (my current boat), or a 470 or 505? (I'm trying to get a sense for what it's like compared with boats I've sailed in the past....)

Thanks very much, Gavin -- the stats on that boat are amazing!! 220 sq. ft. of working sail (main & jib) on a 300-lb doublehander, with a 280 sq. ft. chute -- did it look hard to keep upright? Or is there some incredible depowering going on in that carbon rig?

Anyway, thanks again for any info. Have a good one!

- C

P.S. -- how was the A-scow? :)
 
144679 said:
is this a sports boat, like the laser SB3?

No, it's an American-style scow (not quite like the Aussie Moths) -- no keel, no ballast, no trapeze. The hulls are very rounded, but with blunt bows and an essentially flat bottom. When you see them out of the water, they look really weird -- but when heeled ~15 degrees, the part of the hull that's underwater takes on a long, narrow, symmetrical form, sort of like a broadly dished catamaran hull. People sail them on inland lakes and protected bays over here, and they can't handle big ocean swells (the broad bows pound too much). But on protected waters, they're extremely fast -- as fast or faster than single-trapeze dinghies of comparable weight & power, which is not at all shabby for something you sit in & hike!

The thing about scows over here, however, is that whilst an E-, C-, or A- scow sailor would kill me for saying this :) , the one-designs were all set decades ago, and they're pretty old. Tweaked, modified, tuned, and finessed, yes -- but old. What's got people excited about this new boat is that someone's finally taken the concept and pulled out all the 21st-century stops: it's about half the weight of the older scows, with a fairer hull, real underwater blades, and a much, much more powerful and (supposedly) controllable rig. And the rumors have been amazing. Some people are saying it's as fast on some points of sail as a 28-foot E-scow, which can't be possible (if it were, it'd be far faster than a 29er, 505, Flying Dutchman, I-14, or RS200/400/600/800, which just can't be for a non-trapeze, non-winged 17 footer...), but in any case, it's said to be a rocket.

I'm shopping for a future non-trap replacement for my beloved Laser 2, and since the RS400 isn't an option over here in the US, the M17 is looking very interesting!
 
ya scows are old boats but they wow are they amazing when you get the the ace up in like 20 mph of wind and some waves. they had the monohull speed record for along time i think. but ya that melges 17 is the fastest in light air it can plane in really light air and its a really easy boat to sail. i hope it becomes a popular boat so i can sail on it again! and whats a laser sb3?!
 
Gavin, tell me more, please! Did you take a ride, or were you watching? And how fast was it? Catamaran fast? Dinghy/Laser fast? How could you tell -- were you comparing it to other boats in the area?

Anyway, a Laser SB3 is a 3-person British "sport boat" -- it has a ballasted keel to keep it upright, but overall it's fairly light and can plane in heavy air. From the pictures it looks sort of like a miniature Melges 24 -- a lot of fun, but a completely different animal from the M17. (Why to the Brits and Aussies have all the cool boats??)
 
I checked it out on the melges web site. It was released over a year ago and the cost....$15K. That's a lot of clams for a 2 man boat that should really only be sailed on inland waters. If ya got em, spend em.
 
i heard you could buy RS dinghys from Vanguard because i was talking to a vanguard rep At the Baker Regatta (double handed team racing high school championship) and he brought a RS Feva XL as a demo boat along with 14 new 420's for the regatta and a asked him if you could buy Rs Boats and he said yes. you probably would have to contact Vanguard.
 
RS Feva should be availble from Vanguard soon. Not sure when, should check. Haven't seen one yet, but they are hot in Europe I guess. What rep was trucking it around?
 
Hi Everybody,

Thank you so much for all the great replies/comments!

Sailordude -- that was an awesome private message! Thanks very very much! I'll try to send you a reply later today, if I can figure out this private message thingy.... :)

RobB -- yes, $15k is a lot, but if the reports are true (and sailordude's PM suggested that they might be!), there's no other boat out there that has so much accessible performance. You're absolutely right of course about being limited to inland/protected waters -- but that's where some of us spend all our time sailing!

Sailor327 -- thanks for the info! I'll ask Vanguard about the RS400 (though if I become the only one on this side of the Atlantic who has one, it'd be a little tough getting to races... :) )

(And 144679 -- why do you think there are so many more & different types of Lasers in the UK than here in the States? Is dinghy sailing just bigger over there, or are the sailing conditions somehow different over there, requiring different boats?)

Anyway, yesterday was my first time on this Forum (I just stumbled on it while avoiding real work) -- really nice of you all to help out a newcomer, and I hope you all have a great summer. All the best! - W
 
ceilidh said:
Hi Everybody,

(And 144679 -- why do you think there are so many more & different types of Lasers in the UK than here in the States? Is dinghy sailing just bigger over there, or are the sailing conditions somehow different over there, requiring different boats?)

over this side of the pond Preformance Sailcraft europe (PSE) manafacture the laser range,
i think they try and cater for as wider range as possible,
i'll give u a list of what the produce:

  • Laser
    Laser Radial
    Laser 4.7
    Laser 2
    Vago
    Pico
    Fun boat
    Laser 2000
    Laser 3000
    Laser 4000
    Laser 5000
    Laser Vortex
    Laser Stratos
    Laser Stratos keel ( same as above but with a ballasted keel)
    Laser SB3
    also they make the dart catermarangs

P.S. they are even more that i can't remember. theres loads that the don't make no more that are still kicking around
 
I personally thought that the feva was underpowered and slow. but the asymetric spinnaker was pretty cool. also i thought a 420 was faster.
 
15k is a lot for a boat that looks like a bathtub! The sails and rigging are pretty impressive, but why not put it on a real boat?
 
when you sail on it youll see. i thought a radial was faster than a 420 in like all winds. the 420's so tanky after 2 years im tired of sailing on it!
 
Gerard said:
15k is a lot for a boat that looks like a bathtub! The sails and rigging are pretty impressive, but why not put it on a real boat?

Good question! I used to wonder about that too (how could something so ugly and bizarre be so fast?). Here's the scoop:

When heeled, a scow is a little like a narrow catamaran, only one that can also readily plane. The center of buoyancy (CB) shifts far to leeward, the underwater body is narrow, long, and fair (unlike a dinghy's, which is horribly distorted if it's not sailed flat), and a hiking crew has its weight almost (though not quite) as far to windward of the CB as the trapezing crew of an upright dinghy (i.e., it has a lot of righting power).

In other words, you couldn't put the M17 rig on a "real boat" without using double trapezes (or maybe a single trap with big wings), and then you'd still have to narrow the waterline beam an awful lot to get an equally fast hull shape. If you go that route, you can get something really fast (there's nothing as fast as a winged skiff w/double trap, like a 49er!), but you also end up with something a lot of people can't sail.

Gavin (sailordude) sent me a private message (which I still haven't figured out how to reply to -- sorry Gavin!) saying that driving the M17 was like driving any boat, only an incredible amount faster. That's *not* the case with skiffs(!), which basically require people to completely relearn a totally different sailing technique (and whose crews often end up wearing knee pads and helmets). (And Gavin's right -- scows had the monohull speed record once, before the modern skiffs really got going.) Again, I'm still trying to learn more about this boat, and maybe the rumors aren't really true -- but it's looking like here's a boat that someone with Laser techniques can step into and immediately start sailing at speeds approaching that of a modern skiff, only this boat doesn't capsize at the dock with the sails down, and you don't have to stand up to keep from dumping in light air!

Anyway, I agree -- bizarre-looking boats, and a real pity they don't work on the ocean. But I think they're cool!

P.S. -- Gavin, get out of those 420s! They're not as bad as FJs, but what an unexciting boat! :)
 
hey ceilidh to send a private message you click there name and a drop down thing appears. click send private message to..... and a new page should open.

iv been dieing!!! to get out of 420's but in the spring thats what we sail for highschool. im doing the advanced laser this summer so i hope i get alot better at laser's and with a coach like gordy bowers that really helps. we have like 2 professional sailors coming too. iv never sailed on a skiff... iv seen an I 14 sail but never gotten on it. iv always loved the trap so im trying to get on my friends hobbie 20. up here in the midwest they dont have big fleets of fast boats just scow, lasers, 420s and j boats. what do you mean its a total different thing driving a skiff like i heard its mad tipy and hard to sail but i guess i underestimated it!
 
Hey sailordude!

I'll try the private message thing in a bit (work is just swamped!). For now...

1) Trapezing is awesome. Once you're hooked up on the wire and watching the boat from way off to the side....there's nothing like it! In waves (e.g., ocean sailing in a dinghy) you set the height so that the top of every third wave or so brushes just under you, and all the spray flies past your legs and nails the skipper. :) In a fast cat in heavy air, the spray can actually knock both of you off your feet, which causes some really entertaining gyrations after the fact -- definitely try it out on your friend's Hobie, but be warned that it's pretty different between cats and dinghies: on a cat, you're literally flying high above the sea on a very fast, relatively stable platform; on a dinghy, everything's moving around much much more, and if you or the driver make a mistake, you're in the water big time. Lots of fun!

2) There are skiffs and there are skiffs. The newest generation (29ers, Vector, etc.) are said to be much more manageable, but things like 49ers are just weird. They actually become less stable the slower they go -- and they're not that stable even when they're fast. Because of that, you can't maneuver around marks and things they way we're used to even in normal trapeze dinghies. For example, if you bear off gradually at the weather mark in any sort of decent wind, you'll capsize instantly (the same sort of effect occurs in a trapeze dinghy in heavy air, but it's much more emphatic in a skiff); same thing in a jibe/gybe -- if it's done gradually, the boat will slow down on the bear-away, and then broach and capsize as the main comes across. So everything is sort of a controlled crash -- you have to be very emphatic and forceful in maneuvers, and yet simultaneously subtle and precise. And a beginner can get in situations where the boat simply doesn't seem to work: if you try to accelerate from rest while close-reaching, for instance, you can get in a position where you can't fill the sails because they'll pull you over, but then you can't maneuver because you aren't moving, and then the leech catches the breeze, you round up to windward, and then roll over....

Anyway, skiffs are cool, and you're lucky you're still young and have all these awesome boats around to try out (me, I'm older, my knees are shot, and I have a job that keeps me from spending lots of time on the water practicing -- so my trapeze-boat days are basically over...). So try out everything! And keep working your Laser(!) -- it's the best training you can get for future performance stuff, especially if you go out when it's "too windy" for everybody else, and force yourself to practice tacks, jibes, surfing, and general blasting around.

Oh, and if you're a midwesterner: check out CORK (Kingston, Ontario) -- it should be within driving distance for you, and if you go to one of their Laser regattas, there'll be tons of other cool boats you can try out (that's what we used to do -- hang out after the races and ask the other competitors for rides on their boats; not everybody's friendly, but if you're nice & persistent, you can check out some nice machinery).

Ok, back to work. I wish I were still in school! :)
 
sailordude said:
....what do you mean its a total different thing driving a skiff like i heard its mad tipy and hard to sail but i guess i underestimated it!

Hi Gavin,

I don't know if these links will work, but I thought you might enjoy them. Here's a Cherub (British skiff) in a fairly moderate breeze:

http://www.sailingsource.com/cherub/video/clips/mango_jam_2.mov

.....And, here's an Australian 12-footer (skiff) in crazy conditions:

http://www.skiff.org.nz/movies/Stagecoach2.mov

Cheers! - W
 
wow dude thanks alot. alot of good info! ya a few of my teammates went to cork last year and said its awesome. im hoping to go this year but it cost alot and i might have to miss school for it so ya. next yera im doing the orange bowl or some down in florida. it goes during christmas break so it would be fun. is there any other way i could get on a sweet boat in my area? like iv been on j boats and scows but i really want to try something fast like a skiff but how could i find someone like that in my area if any. thanks alot man.
 
sailordude said:
....is there any other way i could get on a sweet boat in my area? like iv been on j boats and scows but i really want to try something fast like a skiff but how could i find someone like that in my area if any.....

Hi Gavin,

You've asked a bunch of questions, so let me try to hit them in sequence:

1) Videos:

If I were a teenage Laser sailor with dreams of future glory, I wouldn't be thinking of skiffs. Instead, I'd be shooting for a foiler Moth: as fast as a 49er, probably even trickier to sail, but much cheaper and much, much (believe it or not) cooler and on the cutting edge. If you haven't seen one, take a look at this link, and click on the rightmost video in the top row ("Music by Evanescence"):

http://www.rohanveal.com/video.html

Skiffs are cool, don't get me wrong! But campaigning one is a bit like a major military operation, you need a buddy as committed as you are, and (sadly) they're not really evolving that fast anymore. But a foiler Moth....that's cutting edge, and every year the top guys figure out how to go that much faster, and the equipment just keeps improving....


2) Getting a ride on a skiff:

Skiffs are expensive, relatively fragile, and prone to wipeout if either crew member makes a mistake. The combination of all that makes people a little reluctant to take strangers for a ride. That's why things like CORK are nice -- you have a full week to get people to know and like you, and maybe then they'll take you out for a spin... In general, good sailors (and nobody sails a skiff unless they're good) admire the following qualities in newbies: enthusiasm, humility, good cheer, and polite persistence. If you're a good guy, if you ask politely and without any swagger, and if they can see the excitement in your eyes, you have a chance for a ride. Prowl the web and look for 29er or Vector races/fleets in your area, and just see how it goes; be ready for disappointment, but don't give up! If you're nice and enthusiastic, you'll get your ride eventually. :)


3) The next best thing:

If there aren't too many hot boats in your area and you're dying for something a little more exciting than a 420 (again, be grateful your school doesn't use FJs!), then you might want to check out a 505. It's an old (almost 50 year old!) trapeze dinghy class, but the boats are *fast* -- faster than a 29er and surprisingly close to an RS800, and they can sail in conditions that would tear a skiff apart. To see a 5-oh in heavy air, go to this link, click on "images" in the sidebar, then "Awesome photos from the Ronstan UK National Championship", and take a look at the first couple of shots:

http://www.int505.org/usa_new/index.php?module=PostWrap&page=http://www.int505.org/imgmain.htm

The reasons I'm suggesting 505 are that: (1) if you can sail a Laser, you can sail a five-oh; (2) they're fast enough (in heavy air) to give you a taste of what real performance sailing is like; and (3) the class is actively trying to encourage people to join, and hence a 505 sailor is much more likely to take a newbie out for a spin than is almost any other performance dinghy/skiff sailor. Here are some fleets in the US:

http://www.int505.org/usa_new/index.php?module=PostWrap&page=http://www.int505.org/usa/usfleets/fletmain.htm

....it looks like they're trying to get a fleet started in Minneapolis, so if you contact the guys there, I'd bet they'll be willing to take you out for a ride (ask for a windy day, by the way!).


4) What started this thread:

Don't, by the way, dismiss the Melges 17! That boat is attracting attention because it's supposed to be near-skiff performance without all the pain, and just because a boat is comfortable, doesn't mean it's not exciting! :) If fleets get going near you, do all you can to become a substitute crew member; I bet in heavy air, the M17 will give you all the excitement and handling challenges you'll want...

Take care, Gavin, and have a great summer!
 
Saw one of the new 17s in lake Genova around 6 weeks ago while racing Lasers.

Ok, nice. However, I do not undertand the fuss around scows. I consider them way too expensive.

E-scow races are fun and the boat is nice to sail when right conditions.

I rather buy a second hand 49er, a vector a 470, etc, or just keep sailing Lasers.
 

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