Leaky Mast Step

marvin-miller

Arrrr...
Hi Folks!

About 10 years ago I went sailing in a really, really strong wind :eek: It was actually way too windy and just about all I could do was go with the wind and then, gradually climb back up to my departure point. I did this several times before I was exhausted (my sailing buddy, who weighs 200 pounds, cancelled out on me when he saw the wind!)

Anyway, as I recall, my sail stretched that day (I actually heard/saw it happen!) and I also had a rigging problem somewhere along the line. The long and short was that I ended up upside down in the water resting on the bottom of my boat for some time. (that was when the people on shore called the Coast Guard - but that's another story) :rolleyes:

The waves were big and ever since that trip my mast step started leaking water. I think what happened is that the cunningham was a little loose and the mast might have come out of the step a little bit and then the rocking of the waves might have cracked the step somewhere...

I decided to re-investigate the issue today and what I found was that the step doesn't leak at the bottom - it leaks further up. That is to say, water will only drain to a certain point and then it remains. Given that the problem seems to have happened on 'that' day it makes me think the step might be cracked further up and that the rest of it might be OK.

If that is the case, can I just make a hole (ouch) and the wrap the step in fiberglass? I'm trying to decide what to do with the boat and I don't really want to spend a lot of time doing major re-construction so I'm hoping it will be a more simple repair given how it happened. Anyway, I took some pics (before cutting a hole!)

Also, my hull number is ZFSA 4786 M82D - if anyone can tell me what that means I'd appreciate it too!
 

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Yes, it does sound like have cracked the mast tube. It is a pretty easy fix, you'll want to put in an inspection port, wrap the tube with 2-3 layers of fiberglass mat/resin (and possibly the base of the tube as well, since you are in there.

The following thread gives you a good idea of where to cut the hole - there are a number of additional threads on here about fixing the mast step (it's usually the base that lets go), use the search feature and search on mast step repair

http://www.laserforum.org/showthread.php?t=10438&highlight=Mast+step+repair

The hull id number tells you where it was built, the sail number and the month/year it was built. You can decode it with the info here :
http://www.laserforum.org/know/index.php?title=Serial_%28Hull%29_Number
 
Hi 49208 ~ thanks for the reply :)

I'm encouraged, I'll get an inspection port and take the plunge :eek: With repspect to the serial number, mine seems different then the ones in the FAQ...

ZFSA 4786 M82D

ZFS: Performance Sailcraft
A: Sail Number 104786 ??
M82D: ???

I'm not sure what to make of it :confused:
 
You have the manufacturer and sail number - the last 4 are a little harder, for sure the 82 was the year of the build, and guessing either March or Decemeber was the month.
 
I'm thinking maybe it's this;

ZFSA 4786 M82D

ZFS: Performance Sailcraft
A: Sail Number Starts with 10 so it's 104786
M: August
82: 1982
D: ??

Dave built it? :D
 
For sure, you are correct with the builder and sail number Marvin. My boat is a similar vintage and though I'm not particularly worried about it, the last four numbers/characters have always perplexed me:

ZFS 98617 M81G
Builder: Performance Sailcraft, Point Claire, Québec
Sail Number: 98617
Year: 1981

Based on your reasoning, my boat was also manufactured in August and was built by 'Gertrude' :D
 
If anyone is monitoring this thread I'd love to have some 'real world' advice on my mast step issue. I was thinking it would be cool for advice on a step by step basis (pardon the pun) :D

I managed to pick up a 5" Deck Plate (Inspection Port) and I got one with a clear top :) It cost me a whopping $9.99 CDN

I then cut the hole and stuck in the trouble light. There was trace water around the bottom front of the tube. Putting more water in the step caused it to some out fairly quick through the bottom :-0

Just as a refresher, the reason for opening it up is not that the step is broken or loose but that it leaks. The depth of the whole is pretty close to 14.5" so I assume there's some wear on the bottom of the tube too.

Is the next step removing the old Bondo? If so, what's the best way to do that?
 

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If you are sure it's leaking at the very bottom, then you should create (pour) a new bottom. Search the threads here, you basically need to clean out the bottom of the inside of the tube as best you can, then literally pour resin (add graphite powder if you desire) to form the new base. You aren't adding a lot, you usually only need 1/4" to 3/8" to seal the existing leak and make it solid.


As far as the donut on the outside of the tube, IMHO, it looks in pretty good shape, I wouldn't remove it, just dry the area thoroughly, rough it up with a grinder or sandpaper and then lay down a couple layers of fiberglass mat to tie the tube to the hull. Gouv has a pretty decent how-to on his site here:
http://www.schrothfiberglass.com/maststep.htm
 
Hi 49208;

Thanks for the guidance :D

Originally I thought it was leaking farther up but when I removed some of the donut it became clear that it's leaking in at least two places - at the bottom of the tube and also in a couple of places about .5" higher up the tube...

My guess is that the turning action of the mast in the tube slowly wore out the bottom. So that appears to be one leak...

If I shine a trouble light towards the front of the tube inside the boat and then look down the tube from above I can readily see that it's very 'thin' at the lower front of the tube. In fact, if I run my hand around that part of the tube I can easily feel it.

My guess on those leaks is that the front of the tube is probably also prone to wear because the mast is usually loaded (bent) towards the rear of the boat causing the bottom to exert pressure on the lower front of the tube. Why they are higher up though is beyond me.

At any rate, it appears that I have more then one leak :mad:

The good news is that I have most of the donut removed on the front :D
 

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Thanks Kaiser ~ I saw your thread and enjoyed it.

I've never done fiberglass work before - do you know specifically what West Systems stuff I need and also what fiberglass I require when the time comes? :eek:
 
I had only done it once before myself - with limited success.

I basically used three mixtures:
1) The first mixture was mostly epoxy with just a little bit of high density filler and colloidal silica (I don't think I really needed the CS - could have just used the filler) to thicken it up to a honey consistency. I just poured this into the bottom of the donut to fill in the space below the mast step tube and set the depth of the tube (i.e. how far the mast would stick into the hole)
2) Epoxy plus a lot of filler to make a peanut butter or toothpase-like consistency. This is what I smeared in around the edges of the tube to really cement it into place
3) Epoxy with no filler - I put this into a roller paint tray, soaked the piece of fiberglass (I mostly used the 4-inch wide fiberglass "tape" - which is just a roll of 4" wide fiberglass) in it, and then pulled the piece of glass between the tray and one of the yellow flexible spreaders to get the excess off (so you wind up with a piece of thoroughly wetted-out tape - but no excess, dripping epoxy)

Unfortunately, it's really hard to see how I laid the fiberglass down in my pictures because it's clear and it blends in with what's behind it really well.

Here's an excerpt from an email reply I gave someone else who asked the same question about what products I used.... I went West System all the way. It's expensive - but it works really well:

I used a single quart and had a little bit left over. Note that the last letter in the part number for the resin and hardener is a size code and they match up - so you use the -A (quart) resin with the -A hardener, -B (gallon) with -B and so on.

Check out the how-to page for West System here:http://www.westsystem.com/ss/use-guides/
Here are the basics that you'll need:
#105-A Epoxy Resin, Qt.
#206-A Slow Hardener, 0.44pt.
#300 Mini Pump Set
#404 High Density Filler
Fiberglass tape and cloth

Oh - and definitely a lot of acetone and rubber gloves.

Other cool stuff to have:
#808 Flexible Plastic Spreader
Their little plastic stir sticks and mixing tubs (can't find the numbers)...
 
Hi Kaiser ~ thanks for the additional info :D

With respect to the 404 High Density filler - it seems to come in a variety of sizes.
15 oz & 43 oz (and more). How much would be appropriate?

Also the 808 Flexible plastic spreaders come in 2 packs or 12 packs - how many of those should I get?

I'm getting closer... :eek:
 
The 15oz filler should be plenty. I'd get two 2-packs of the spreaders.

BTW - just a disclaimer... I'm no expert at this... I design electronics for a living. I just read the West System information at the link I provided, made some judgments/guesses about how I wanted to go about the repair, and went for it - and so far it's worked out fine. Also, I was mostly concerned with strength and ease of repair on a pleasure-only boat - I gave no thought to saving weight or class legality.
 
BTW - just a disclaimer... I'm no expert at this... I design electronics for a living. I just read the West System information at the link I provided, made some judgments/guesses about how I wanted to go about the repair, and went for it - and so far it's worked out fine.

Hahaha - up here we call that CYA - and I don't mean Canadian Yachting Association :D

No worries, I'm in the process of trying to gather the 'right stuff'. I'm in agreement with the desired result and just needed someone to tell me what I need from West Systems.

I know zip about this stuff and didn't want to walk in the store and walk out with all the wrong material only to get home and have to go back etc. Thanks much!
 
I just finished (I think) my mast step reinforcement/repair. After getting all the old gunk out of the joint between the step and the hull and thoroughly drying everything, I started filling with west epoxy. Then I chopped some glass and filled the void to flush. I then put a layer of glass mat around the bottom of the mast step and added three inch wide by about ten inch long strips of woven glass down the step and about 5 inches out inside the hull. I kept adding strips until a had built up about 3 layers. It was about 15 pieces all together. I think I have it plenty strong now. I brushed the epoxy onto each piece of glass before I stuck them in the boat, then I used my fingers and the brush to work out any air bubbles or voids.

I like your idea about adding 3/8" of resin inside the bottom of the mast step. Is West system#105 w/#206 hardener the correct product to use for that? Will it get hard enough to still let the mast rotate freely or will I have to add an aluminum or teflon disc?

Barometer Soup
 
Even though I have no direct experience with this (yet!) in my research several people mentioned that you should not seat the mast directly on top of the epoxy because it doesn't want to turn.

One fellow actually broke something (boom vang bracket?) and as a result he created a policy of epoxying a stainless disk in the bottom of the tube whenever he did a mast step repair.

Just a confirmation for you :D
 
Harbour Chandler's in Nanaimo, BC :D

In fact, I believe it's actually a 5.5" deck plate and it has a clear lid too :eek: I also priced out the majority of the West System's stuff there and I found it to be just a little over the USD list price (except in CDN) so I've actually been pretty happy with them.

When I bought the deck plate they even mentioned to me that if I had any issues whatsoever I could just return it for a replacement or a refund. I was quite impressed with them (my parents told me a Chandler was the worst place to buy stuff!).

This is the deck plate I got :D
 
I finally got the call from the Chandler's in Victoria - they have my mast step wear disc! :) I'm going to order the epoxy today and I should be able to finally get in there and complete the repair :eek:

The boat has been sitting out in the sun for several weeks with the inspection port open - it's as dry as a bone inside. I made some pics to illustrate the wear on my step. Perhaps they will help to show others how these things wear out (I'm assuming mine is typical).

First pic. This is a shot of the bottom of the mast step taken from the deck. My step is almost completely worn through the bottom from the mast rotating and grinding into the step. The majority of the wear is at the front though - this because I regularly sailed in heavy winds.
 

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Here's a really crude pic explaining what I'm seeing in my step :eek:
In this pic the mast is bent (under load) and this causes the wear at the lower front of the step.
 

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Another crude pic illustrating the wear that occurs under light wind. The mast is hardly loaded and so it tends to rotate and grind it's way more evenly down into the step. :(
 

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When I did my mast step 3 mo ago Kaiser was a huge help to me. The west system was well worth the money! I would add that the syringes they offer were a great help as I could deliver epoxy to the base and "top" when creating a "fillet". Also the alum powder added strength to the mixture poured into the bottom of the tube. Make sure the tube is verticle (level) and don't drop the steel disc into the curing epoxy...it will sink to the bottom. I was amazed how easy the pump system worked and that the left over cured epoxy popped right off all of the mixing gear. I didn't have a live cam to drop into the inspection hole like Kaiser has ...but a small mirror taped to a wide base helped me see what I was doing. Best of luck, Eric
 
Thanks Eric - that was an excellent and timely post. I never thought about the disk dropping to the bottom so you've saved me from that right off the bat. The syringes are something that I'm going to look up the part numbers for and add them to the order - it sounds like they're the way to fly :D

You mentioned creating a fillet - what did you mean by this?
How did you place the disk? Did you do an initial pour and then wait until it's dry and then epoxy in the disk on top of that?

What I was planning to do was fill in the tube first until it gets to the proper height and then go after the gap left behind by the removed donut inside the boat. The idea was that I would fill in the gap entirely with epoxy, let it dry, and then build up the outside of the tube with fiberglass.

My thinking was that if the tube was sitting in the square with the 'moat' filled with epoxy (right to the top of the 'moat') then there's no way it would ever break loose.

Anyway, if you get a chance, please answer the Q's above and give me your thoughts :)
 
Sounds like you have got a good plan....a fillet describes the 3/4 round shape of material or structural buildup (sim to a nice weld) that one tries to create at the joining of two components. When you fill the "moat" with epoxy (hopfully mixed with chipped glass mat or west system 404 high-density filler) you will accomplish the fillet shape that helps spread the loading from the tube to the bottom of the boat. I mixed filler until I had a "peanut butter" thickness and used the syringes to deliver it. Don't worry about it setting up too fast...the slow hardener gives you ample time.
This will also give you a nice smooth transition to lay glass mat strips from the tube to the bottom. Kaiser had some great pics of the finished step that I just desribed in one of his posts.
West System sells awsome glass mat ...I would recommend you consider using it. I think I used the 6in wide x 10 yds tape and had just enough.
Kaiser is the one who told me about the sinking disc...he found out the hard way! After reading many of the posts on gluing the disc, I just used silicone....though there are those who have more experience than me on this issue.

Hope this helps ..remember that Gouv is the real expert at this ...he had some real important points concerning how the glass is layed to "tie" the tube down to the bottom ....I think it was in kaiser's thread when he was in the middle of his project..
Best of luck! Eric
 
Thanks Eric!

The pictures from Kaiser's posts seem to be gone now :(

I haven't used any West Systems stuff before (although I am sold on it from all the great reports). What I'm wondering about is the consistency. I'm thinking that it would be great if it was very runny when filling both the 'moat' and the bottom of the tube (where the wear occurs).

The reason for this is that I'd like it if it would 'flow' under the tube (where possible) and basically flow into any voids. In fact, if I think about it, if it were as liquid as water it would certainly fill any/all voids. Is this possible?

With respect to the disc - I think what I'll do is complete all the epoxying and then, after it's dry and the base of the tube is at the rigt height, I'll then mix up the smallest batch possible and just paint the bottom of the disc and drop it in. That way it won't sink - and it won't ever come out :D

I'd like to take your advice on using the glass mat from West but I can't seem to find a 6" X 10 yard listing. Is it possible it was something else? Their price list is here;

http://www.westsystem.com/ss/price-list/

Any chance you can take a look and see if you recognize the one you bought? If so, then I can add it to my order :)

Anyway, thanks for the great advice! I can't wait to get it all together and make this boat sail again (it's been sitting for 10 years!!) :eek:
 
...try west marine seach ref no. 105191 for the 6" tape

With reguards to the "moat" ..I understand your desire to let it "run" and flow as a runny liquid. What comes to mind is that you will sacrifice the structural fibers that help form a strong structural bond. Also you won't benefit from the fillet shape as the epoxy will level out flat. Maybe you should "wet" the area first by brushing in a thin layer of epoxy followed by the thicker structural "paste-like" fiber/epoxy fillet that you can create at the base....Gouv please jump in..!

...be careful on "dropping" the disc....unlike a peanut butter sandwich, it may land sticky side up! There are many posts that describe cool ways to insert the disc . I used a rod with dbl sided tape to place it ...then a larger dia pvc pipe to slide over the rod and hold down on the plate while I gently removed the rod.

good luck! Eric
 
Sorry about the pics... they were hosted on the website of a dying club and I guess they didn't pay the hosting fee this time around.

I have them all here, still... I'll try to rehost and re post them one of these days.


I didn't end up gluing my wear disk in at all... I just dropped it in and let it free spin (sure - it might eventually wear down the fiberglass a bit... but I'm not too concerned about it.... I added at least a half inch of epoxy down there).


marvin-miller: Regarding the epoxy flowing to fill in any voids - that's no problem. The epoxy mixture itself is quite thin and runny (like pancake syrup). It only becomes thick when you add thickeners to it - so you can have it as thin or as thick as you want!
 
Regarding the epoxy flowing to fill in any voids - that's no problem. The epoxy mixture itself is quite thin and runny (like pancake syrup). It only becomes thick when you add thickeners to it - so you can have it as thin or as thick as you want!

Perfect, perfect, perfect. :) I figure if I pour it into the tube to fill in the bottom then if it's runny enough it should leak out into the moat through the leaks and fill it in :)

Then, if I fill the gap inside the square (pictured) with epoxy and it's runny enough to fill all the voids there then the lower step should be structurally sound. It's sound right now (in that it didn't break - it was solid).

Basically what I want to do is fill it all with glue and have it harden into a bullet-proof mass that fills every area possible so that I end up with a massive hardened block such that it will never have a problem ever again :D

After that I plan to build up the tube itself with several layers of tape so that it's thick again. With respect to the disc - I don't want mine to ever come out again so I figure I'll put a dap on the bottom and then seat it.

The way I see it, it will not only be water tight but it will be much stronger then before with much more 'meat'. The disc should keep it from grinding down into the boat again. I figure it will never need to be looked at again. Doing it this way, I think the value of the boat should go up because it's been future proofed and if anything, improved upon.

Once it's all done I'll probably run some tape up from the bottom of the boat to the tube but in all honesty, I doubt it would be necessary provided the moat and tube are filled with epoxy. The only way it could break loose (in my mind) would be if the stress was so high that it broke the square moat thing clear off the bottom of the boat! :eek:

...try west marine seach ref no. 105191 for the 6" tape

Aha! I thought it was a West Systems product - that's why I couldn't find it :)

BTW, Here's a pic of my brand new sail (I bought it a couple of years ago). I've yet to use it - in fact, I've yet to ever put a brand new sail on the boat. The one next to it is the original sail from 1982 - I used that sail right up until 1998 when I last sailed the boat. That's 16 years of sailing with that old original sail. I wonder what it will be like with a new sail? :eek:
 

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They say a picture is worth a thousand words so here's a night time shot of the bottom of the mast step illuminated by my trouble light.

The areas that are worn the most are the thinnest and so they let the light shine through. As you can see, the bottom bottom of the tube is very thin. What's neat about this picture is that you can also see the depth that it's worn in the tube.

The area that is yellow is the worn section, the orange area above is not worn. You can clearly see that the yellow worn area is much more prominent in the front of the tube and tapers right off to the half-way point. This is because when you pull the mainsheet in the mast is pulled back causing it to actually tilt to the front. That's why all the wear occurs there.

In short order I'll be updating this thread with the actual repair - woohoo! :D
 

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Aha! Some of my parts showed up today. :D

I thought I might as well replace the plastic plug at the bottom of the mast because the old one was really, really worn :) Same thing with the plug on the boom. The fit onto the gooseneck was getting a bit sloppy. The grab rails in the cockpit had broke some time ago and it was nice to finally get around to replacing them.

It won't be long before it's time to do the epoxy work... I'm getting closer....:eek:
 

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....your pictures are so good you can see where you hit the bottom plug with a hammer (instead of using a block of wood or something)...:rolleyes: take care, Eric
 

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