Laser Quality

viktor188924

New Member
It seems that its been a slippery downhill slope in quality among the newer lasers. Mine was sailed for the first time as a charter boat at the 2007 Laser Midwinters East. Note the number 188924. My teammate bought his boat about a week before I did (his was also one of the 2007 model charter boats). Both of our boats are already showing signs of wear and just plain bad quality manufacturing. In some of the older models, the hull and deck meeting points in the daggerboard trunk are flush with eachother. In the new boats, they are not flush, and when the boat is upside down, you can see the lip of the deck hanging down when you look into the trunk. This isn't so bad in itself, but listen to this: The hull and deck don't meet squarely, so the daggerboard will always be turned in one direction, causing the boat to be faster on one tack. My teammate's boat must be skewed 5 degrees. Mine is a little better, but still not perfect. Another thing: on the back corner of the trailing edge of the trunk, there is a lot of wear. Your thoughts?
 
So, have either of you contacted your dealer ?
Have you contacted Vanguard ?

How did you measure the the degree off center ? (and why didn't you do this prior to buying ? )

Considering how the boats are constructed, how do you think the deck and hull can can end up 5 degrees off when they are put together ?

Can you post some pics showing some of the issues you describe ?
 
No we did not contact our dealers.
Yes my friend contacted vanguard.
I did not measure, im just estimating, it probably wasnt that much but it was clear to the eye that there was a problem.
I'm really not sure how it could be off so much, I understand your point. Well if you look at the gunwale and follow the hull/deck joint it seems that they line up fine around the boat.
I'll try to send you a PM later with some pictures.
 
we spend lot's of money for crappy boats, we know, that's unfortunaletly typical laser. even my 143840 has gelcoat coming off after banging my knee against it, and my older one 120343 had his side decks falling in, and also the bottom, thats why i dont race her anymore, and i use the 143XXx . it has a stiffer waterline. But its the game we love.
 
You're absolutely right.

Those are big statements. I've owned 4 laser, (76, 81, 94, and 98) models. The 98 I"m currently sailing was beat to hell by the previous owners, but i've fixed her up and even though it's the oldest boat in my local fleet by nearly 8 years I'm most always in the top 4 of our 20+ boat local fleet. Does it have voids? yes. Does the mast step get wear? yes. Does the filler in the deck/hull joint come out? yes. Do I fix these things? Yes! Every off season I garage my boat for a complete check up and fix every little ding on her. If you beat your boat up every season and just throw a cover on it until next time then you'll lessen the life span of the boat. This will happen with anything.

I've never experienced initial build quality related problems with any of my boats. While I have heard of a few issued with particular builders over the years those problems were always taken care of by the dealer/builder in the instances I was aware of.

While I have problems with the cost of class sails the total package price of a new boat can't be beat by anything on the market right now that offers the same type of serious OD sailing and for such a broad range of individuals. Yes, $5,000.00 is a lot of money, but you get a good return on the investment fun wise and for years to come.

If you have a measurable initial build problem on a new boat then get your dealer involved. If you have a problem with a second hand boat then you should have done a better job looking it over before you bought it. There is no way you can blame a QC issue of a used boat on initial build as you have no idea of its history.

Rant over.
 
Those are big statements. I've owned 4 laser, (76, 81, 94, and 98) models. The 98 I"m currently sailing was beat to hell by the previous owners, but i've fixed her up and even though it's the oldest boat in my local fleet by nearly 8 years I'm most always in the top 4 of our 20+ boat local fleet. Does it have voids? yes. Does the mast step get wear? yes. Does the filler in the deck/hull joint come out? yes. Do I fix these things? Yes! Every off season I garage my boat for a complete check up and fix every little ding on her. If you beat your boat up every season and just throw a cover on it until next time then you'll lessen the life span of the boat. This will happen with anything.

I've never experienced initial build quality related problems with any of my boats. While I have heard of a few issued with particular builders over the years those problems were always taken care of by the dealer/builder in the instances I was aware of.

While I have problems with the cost of class sails the total package price of a new boat can't be beat by anything on the market right now that offers the same type of serious OD sailing and for such a broad range of individuals. Yes, $5,000.00 is a lot of money, but you get a good return on the investment fun wise and for years to come.

If you have a measurable initial build problem on a new boat then get your dealer involved. If you have a problem with a second hand boat then you should have done a better job looking it over before you bought it. There is no way you can blame a QC issue of a used boat on initial build as you have no idea of its history.

Rant over.

I agree. Most recreational sailors have a very very limited sample size when it comes to commenting on build quality of new boats. Thus, finding a (debatable) problem with one or two newish boats does not in itself mean that there is an issue with quality control.


To be honest I would suspect it is only the larger dealers who would detect a quality problem (as they see a larger number of boats and get to have to deal with any problems) and they would take it up with Vanguard who would almost certainly resolve it. After all, it is far more expensive for a company to sort out a problem with a boat after it is built and sold than sorting out the problems in the factory during building (a simple matter of economics that).


Of course there are occasional faults that slip through - but as Rob says, these would be dealt with by the manufacturer. There is another thread running where somebody has a problem with the mast step and by their account Vanguard (and dealer ?) are being very responsive and helpful.


Ian
 
... But its the game we love.
This is what is "absolutely right". I think I accidentally read over the part about "crappy boats." I used to use a REALLY old laser, you know, entry level. It was actually a '74 but it had a new paintjob and I don't think it held me back all too much. But i felt that the hull and deck were getting too soft, and that after all my efforts I couldn't get the old thing to stop leaking. Thus, the new laser. It's not really a rant, this daggerboard trunk thing is not too bad on my boat, I just wanted to hear YOUR opinions in the changes in Vanguard design over the years (for better or worse.) I have heard from other people (coaches, friends) that they think it has gotten worse. Thank you for your input!
 
I agree. Most recreational sailors have a very very limited sample size when it comes to commenting on build quality of new boats. Thus, finding a (debatable) problem with one or two newish boats does not in itself mean that there is an issue with quality control.


To be honest I would suspect it is only the larger dealers who would detect a quality problem (as they see a larger number of boats and get to have to deal with any problems) and they would take it up with Vanguard who would almost certainly resolve it. After all, it is far more expensive for a company to sort out a problem with a boat after it is built and sold than sorting out the problems in the factory during building (a simple matter of economics that).


Of course there are occasional faults that slip through - but as Rob says, these would be dealt with by the manufacturer. There is another thread running where somebody has a problem with the mast step and by their account Vanguard (and dealer ?) are being very responsive and helpful.


Ian

And I aree with YOU too... for the most part. Just because two boats have the fault doesnt mean it's a big deal... and it might not be a small deal either. I didn't mean to sound like I had such a big opinon on this from the get-go... I'm more interested in what you guys think, and if you guys have seen something like this happen to you or someone you know. It's sort of a hidden flaw, It's not obvious when you just look at the boat. I don't know what the other new boats look like. When I go to my next regatta there are sure to be some more '07's there. I'll take a look.
 
I believe the big question at this point is.... What does your dealer say? or the dealer of the guy that has a worse proplem than your boat?

If it is not brought to the attention of the dealer or the builder then it must not be much of an issue for the customer.
 
Conventional wisdom is the Canadian-built boads were pretty good boats, and I think quality improved a lot with SLI in the 90s. My '99 Vanguard is still in pretty good shape, but I have BABIED that boat since I got it.

There was a time, in the 70s I believe, where the Laser license bounced around from builder to builder (I think Pearson had it for a while). I think many of these builders used the Laser as "filler work" between their higher-profit large boats. Laser was not their first priority, so quality may have slipped some.

I'm not speaking from any first-hand knowledge, just class lore passed down through the ages.
 
I believe the big question at this point is.... What does your dealer say? or the dealer of the guy that has a worse proplem than your boat?

If it is not brought to the attention of the dealer or the builder then it must not be much of an issue for the customer.

Yes, my buddy contacted Vanguard, they said they'd take a look at it or something... I'm not sure about the details but my friend still has the same boat now so I guess nothing happened. I don't think either of us have contacted the dealer. I'll find out more info.

There was a time, in the 70s I believe, where the Laser license bounced around from builder to builder (I think Pearson had it for a while). I think many of these builders used the Laser as "filler work" between their higher-profit large boats. Laser was not their first priority, so quality may have slipped some.

Ohhh. Well Vanguard makes: Optimist, Club 420, Club FJ, Laser, Laser 2, Sunfish, Vanguard 15, Nomad, Vector, 49er.
I don't know how big each of these fleets are compared to the Laser membership, but I do know that Vanguard has invested a LOT of money in making Lasers. Good point. I'm no expert either.
 
Opti is the biggest one design fleet on the planet

and CFJ and 420's are used in most Junior programs, high school and college sailing teams

49er is an Olympic boat, but they don't make em anymore

Sunfish is another HUGE wordwide fleet, possibly bigger than us, but not by much

Nomad, very new boat, still growing

I think they might have stooped Vector, or you have to order

Laser 2, used to be THE junior boat in the 80's early 90's, not so much, small fleets, gotta order to get one, no longer a constant production run

V15, good match racing dinghy, used a bit for college
 
I think many of these builders used the Laser as "filler work" between their higher-profit large boats. Laser was not their first priority, so quality may have slipped some.

But do you guys think that Vanguard could be so caught up in any of these boats that what torrid is saying might be happening? I don't. Yes, I know where the boats are used, but.... FJ's and 420's are the classes where they are popular AND cost more than the Laser. But how popular? And Opti's cost much less, people only buy hulls from Opti Dealers... plus not everyone buys a Vanguard. Many buy Winner or McLaughlin hulls.
 
trust me, Vanguard does all they can to make the Laser the best product it can be within the rules, don't be hating on Vanguard, if the rules where updated, the boat could be a lot better

their not trying to shortchange us
 
aiiiiiight

don't hate the builder, hate the rules the builder must abide by, and the stiff organizing committee lol
 
viktor188924,
Its all about profit. It would be daft for Vanguard to "pay less attention to Lasers" or just ignore any QA issues - as this would end-up costing them loads and hitting profits badly. Its just standard manufacturing and business principles. Far more expensive to solve problems once item is with customer (and is used, etc.).


I think your initial post starting this thread suggested to many that you were being critical of Vanguard's quality. Starting It seems that its been a slippery downhill slope in quality among the newer lasers implies to me that you are being critical, not that you are inviting comments on peoples experiences. You then go on to detail two problems boats you have experienced (justifying your initial comment about poor build quality). Thus, you cannot be surprised that many have assumed you were being critical, even though you later changed to I just wanted to hear YOUR opinions in the changes in Vanguard design over the years - which to me appears completely different to your original comment.


Ian
 
he was being critical, he was criticizing something

and I would think that one would generally assume that other people would throw in their comments and experiences
 
But do you guys think that Vanguard could be so caught up in any of these boats that what torrid is saying might be happening? I don't. Yes, I know where the boats are used, but.... FJ's and 420's are the classes where they are popular AND cost more than the Laser. But how popular? And Opti's cost much less, people only buy hulls from Opti Dealers... plus not everyone buys a Vanguard. Many buy Winner or McLaughlin hulls.

Let me re-state;

I wasn't talking about Vanguard today but companies like Pearson 25-30 years ago. They typically made big yachts, a completely different market and (I would assume) manufacturing technique from small boats. They weren't building Lasers because they wanted to be in the small boat market. They built Lasers to keep the cash coming in during lean years.

Being that Vanguard concentrates exclusively on small boats, I think that would be a plus for the Laser.
 
it is

in NA, Laser's biggest asset is Vanguard, without Vanguard, their wouldent be Laser sailing in NA

unless of course some other company picked up Laser, but everyone would still bitch and moan about it
 
Having just completed some "Laser Surgery"
http://www.laserforum.org/showthread.php?t=6507

I thought I'd add my 2 cents regarding this subject.

I you look at my other thread, you will see that mine is a 1979 Canadian built boat. I have addressed the hull separation issue and joined the aft cockpit bulkhead back to the hull and stringers. During the course of this exercise, I have talked to as many "Laser Guys" as possible and did considerable internet research. I also looked at a lot of boats.

Observations as follows:

1. I noticed that the deck screws were of an inferior grade of stainless and showed signs of corosion. I replaced every screw on the deck with marine grade stainless.

2. Both grab rails were broken due to a combination of stresses when attached and most likely heating and cooling cycles. I suspect that they were somewhat brittle to begin with. My friend has a 1989 boat, and the rails are a different type of plastic and look almost new.

3. The after cockpit bulkhead was originally attached to the thru-hull recess and stringers with three wads of thickened resin, and the thru-hull bushing was made of plastic. From people I spoke with, this method and choice of materials is why many boats of this vintage can separate and leak. I am told that newer boats have a brace running athwartship at the after bulkhead as an attachment point and use a bronze thru-hull bushing.

4. In an effort to save money, one length of screw was used. These stuck in quite far into the inside of the boat. when reaching around in there, one had to be careful.

In conclusion, I would say that the assertion that Canadian built boats were "better" can neither be confirmed or denied. I have only worked on a few other boats and none were in as bad a condition as this one. What this does illustrate is that if you neglect something (like this 1979 Laser) it will deteriorate quite repidly. I would imagine that whoever is making the boats now has probably learned a lot from the past mistakes of others and todays Laser is probably a better overall boat than its predecessors.

FWIW
 
'1. I noticed that the deck screws were of an inferior grade of stainless and showed signs of corosion. I replaced every screw on the deck with marine grade stainless."


gotta remember the builders gotta make a buck here, they can't use $50 screws, and today's boats are much better then the older ones, also you said your boat was a 79, that stuff is gonna rust



"4. In an effort to save money, one length of screw was used. These stuck in quite far into the inside of the boat. when reaching around in there, one had to be careful."

thats just practical, how many people are going to be putting their hands down the boat anyways, you have to put a hole in there first, which no one wants to do
 
viktor188924,
Its all about profit. It would be daft for Vanguard to "pay less attention to Lasers" or just ignore any QA issues - as this would end-up costing them loads and hitting profits badly. Its just standard manufacturing and business principles. Far more expensive to solve problems once item is with customer (and is used, etc.).


I think your initial post starting this thread suggested to many that you were being critical of Vanguard's quality. Starting It seems that its been a slippery downhill slope in quality among the newer lasers implies to me that you are being critical, not that you are inviting comments on peoples experiences. You then go on to detail two problems boats you have experienced (justifying your initial comment about poor build quality). Thus, you cannot be surprised that many have assumed you were being critical, even though you later changed to I just wanted to hear YOUR opinions in the changes in Vanguard design over the years - which to me appears completely different to your original comment.


Ian

Hey, I get it. I knew my first post on this thread was foolish from the start. I know that it is a direct criticization (i think thats a word) and I wish I could have worded it differently. Notice that in my recent posts I have already apologized for this. A few of the people I know have made their opinions heard about what this thread concerns, and so I guess I'm biased. However: I am not here to hit anyone below the belt, just want some thought process... something to talk about... I'm glad you've noticed my change in humor about this subject. Please excuse my first post.

he was being critical, he was criticizing something

and I would think that one would generally assume that other people would throw in their comments and experiences

And I ONLY want you guys to "throw in your comments and experiences"

Let me re-state;

I wasn't talking about Vanguard today but companies like Pearson 25-30 years ago. They typically made big yachts, a completely different market and (I would assume) manufacturing technique from small boats. They weren't building Lasers because they wanted to be in the small boat market. They built Lasers to keep the cash coming in during lean years.

Being that Vanguard concentrates exclusively on small boats, I think that would be a plus for the Laser.

And yes I understand you were talking about the past. I was just speculating, trying to get some people interesting, getting on the same train of thought. I'm not saying you're wrong. I'm glad you posted some of the "Laser lore which has been passed down though the ages." I learned something.

it is

in NA, Laser's biggest asset is Vanguard, without Vanguard, their wouldent be Laser sailing in NA

unless of course some other company picked up Laser, but everyone would still bitch and moan about it

It would seems so. It's impossible to know the exact profits they get for each boat in each class, but to the naked eye....
 
I just have to query something mentioned earlier....

Optimist is the worlds biggest o/d fleet?
dont think so
The last figures I saw put laser at no.1, and Hobie 16 cat at no.2.

Is the oppy truly one design? there are multitudes of builders, spar suppliers, sailmakers, and foil builders, and of course the boats can be built from fibreglass, wood, or a composite of both.

they do have fairly strict tolerances, but anyone can build them, and with 4mm on most things, thats a lot of scope for variation. A friend of mine in NZ built about four different shaped hulls trying to give his son an edge, and they all passed measurement.

Laser and Hobie both keep a very strict control over their builders,
and over a quarter of a million people sail these two boats worldwide, so something must be right.

Just out of interest, IOCA claims to have just over 150,000 optimists worldwide. They dont quote an exact figure.
 
I think vanguard lasers quality is ok, love the colors and some details. Based on quality/price, they are the best laser deal out there by a large margin.
 
Back in the mid 90s I remember the optimist class annual magazine claiming +300,000 boats built worldwide (the ioda site claims "Sailed in over 110 countries by over 150,000 young people").

The 300 grand figure, I believe to the line, but just my 2 cents.


ex-optimist sailor, being a winner ESP9706 my last. I was 182 cm high when I moved on...:)
 
Yeah me too, but I had to move on at the age of 13. I'm a tall dude. Wow yeah 300,000 is a whole lot of boats. Definitely....
 
I just have to query something mentioned earlier....

Optimist is the worlds biggest o/d fleet?
dont think so
The last figures I saw put laser at no.1, and Hobie 16 cat at no.2.

Is the oppy truly one design? there are multitudes of builders, spar suppliers, sailmakers, and foil builders, and of course the boats can be built from fibreglass, wood, or a composite of both.

they do have fairly strict tolerances, but anyone can build them, and with 4mm on most things, thats a lot of scope for variation. A friend of mine in NZ built about four different shaped hulls trying to give his son an edge, and they all passed measurement.

Laser and Hobie both keep a very strict control over their builders,
and over a quarter of a million people sail these two boats worldwide, so something must be right.

Just out of interest, IOCA claims to have just over 150,000 optimists worldwide. They dont quote an exact figure.

Right. Well I didn't notice it the first time I read it, but you're right... how is Opti a one-design?
 
Back in the mid 90s I remember the optimist class annual magazine claiming +300,000 boats built worldwide (the ioda site claims "Sailed in over 110 countries by over 150,000 young people").

The 300 grand figure, I believe to the line, but just my 2 cents.


ex-optimist sailor, being a winner ESP9706 my last. I was 182 cm high when I moved on...:)

Keep in mind that 300k figure includes a bunch of home-built boats, not hulls with a serial number coming from a licensed builder. It would think it was an estimate at best.

At one point in time, 50 years ago or more, the Optimist was supposed to be an ultra-low-cost class. The hull was designed to be built from a single piece of marine-grade plywood (maybe two). The idea was to keep costs down and and gets lots of kids sailing.

The class has obviously changed, with $3000+ hulls and $1000 blades being spent by rich yacht club parents with deep pockets. It almost seems worse
about hardware wars than some Olympic classes. I have heard many parents complain about spending more on their kid's Opi each than spending on a keelboat like a J/24.

I think the class may be a bit of a victim of its own success. Definitely some lessons which can be learned by the Laser class.
 
At one point in time, 50 years ago or more, the Optimist was supposed to be an ultra-low-cost class. The hull was designed to be built from a single piece of marine-grade plywood (maybe two). The idea was to keep costs down and and gets lots of kids sailing.


Yes, that WAS Clark Mills' idea, wasn't it. I've only seen a handful of the old-model boats. But, I think, that the evolution of the Optimist has actually helped kids get into the sport. You can't blame people for wanting a head-up on another competitor. Besides, a lot of Optimist sailors grow up to become world-class champions... and even better: Laser sailors =0P
 
Ross:

Regarding the screws, your points are well taken, except for the fact that a 1.1/4" screw would've been sufficient to penetrate both the glass and the plywood backing. In fact a 1" screw would probably do just as well. I could not find any place on the boat where a 2 1/4" screw was necessary. They probably got a good deal on them and in my opinion were penny wise and pound foolish.
 
if the rules where updated, the boat could be a lot better
Would you care to explain what exactly the rules have to do with obvious misstakes in manufacturing?
The rules might have flaws but they're defently not forcing vanguard to make misstakes in manufacturing.
 
Would you care to explain what exactly the rules have to do with obvious misstakes in manufacturing?
The rules might have flaws but they're defently not forcing vanguard to make misstakes in manufacturing.


Well I never meant to say that the rules force them to botch the boats and pump out pieces of shit, dunno how you got that

I meant that if the rules were changed, the boats could be built with much high quality materials, and could last a lot longer, instead of replacing a boat every year, more like every 3 or 5 years, make them stiffer and all around better
 
Ross:

Regarding the screws, your points are well taken, except for the fact that a 1.1/4" screw would've been sufficient to penetrate both the glass and the plywood backing. In fact a 1" screw would probably do just as well. I could not find any place on the boat where a 2 1/4" screw was necessary. They probably got a good deal on them and in my opinion were penny wise and pound foolish.

this is probably true, they might also use that size screw on other boats they use, so they figure, lets order 10 million of X size screw and we'll save a pretty penny by using it for everything

besides, is this screw physically hurting you while you sail? the majority of the length of the screw is in the boat, you can't see it, it's really not that big a deal how long it is

we should all just be thankful it's a tad bit to long

I'd rather have a longer screw than a to short screw, and have it pull out on me at the start, don't you agree?
 

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