laser prices

sailor327

New Member
Why are laser items so expensive. like a 420 mainsail which is bigger than a laser sale and has built in battens is less expensive thana laser main. just curious why this is.
 
The laser is expensive because the builder(s) and dealers have a monopoly position. For the 420 there are more builders and lower prices....
 
Well, if you are talking about the international 420, the mainsail costs more then the Laser sail (at least the North Sails mainsail) and doesn't include a window.

If you are talking about the club 420, it's the exact same builder/dealer situation.

And remember, in the Laser class the builder/dealer way of life is the way it is because the class choose to set it up and keep it that way....
 
49208 said:
Well, if you are talking about the international 420, the mainsail costs more then the Laser sail (at least the North Sails mainsail) and doesn't include a window.

If you are talking about the club 420, it's the exact same builder/dealer situation.

First: it's not the same builder/dealer situation. There are more builders, for the same region: Rondar, Devoti, Nautivela, Lenam and Roga (all in Europe). Laser only has PSE for Europe, Vanguard for NA, etc...

Second: I looked for the prices of a 420 mainsail, and it was almost the same price of a sail of the laser, while the 420 sail is bigger (is it?).

Third: Is there a 420 more than only the International??

Fourth: I just wanted to give an example, I could say 'Enterprise' also. The Laser is comparatively speaking more expansive, the laser is a 'simple' boat.

Fifth: Maybe in America everything for Laser is cheap, here in Europe it's terrible expensive.... (maybe because Laser is an olympic class!?)

Sixth: Did I forget something???
 
In North America, we have the Club 420, which seems to use the same builder/dealer network, ie you can only buy sails/parts via the dealer, who can only buy from the builder.

In North American, the International 420 Mainsail is almost $100 more then the Laser sail. If you don't know if the 420 sail is bigger, don't say it is...

IMHO, I don't think everything for the Laser is cheap, however I do think the costs are pretty much inline or less then with other boats. That's based on research on Opti, Sunfish, Finn, Europe and Club 420.
 
Laser sail prices are out of control. In Canada we pay $850 +15% tax. I bought a sail in the US in 1992 for 350 CDN. At the same time this sail retailed in Canada for $550 +15% tax. In 1986 I bought Sail in the UK for $100lb or $200CDN at the time.

Olympic class + the monopoly + Competiton = Expensive sail

What do they cost in the UK and US.
 
Hello Fellow Laserites,
One of the reasons a Laser sail might be more expensive then "larger" 420 sail is because of the building instructions required by the Laser class to keep the class a one design class.
Some of the stuff I have run across in my budding laser education, is how the sail maker (North or Hyde) has to make the sails. The one thing that sticks out in my mind is the sail panels have to be "stack cut". I think they lay several layers of sail cloth down (stack) and then have to hand cut them or use some kind of shearing machine or mechanical scissors to make the cut.
Now I don't know much about sail making at all but the Class rules tell the sail maker how to make it. If that sail making process the sail maker must follow in order for the sails to be class legal is out of date and slow, obsolete, and labor intensive it raises the price they have to charge in order for them to make a fair profit to produce them. If they don't make a profit they go out of business.
Another thing to think about is the process to make the cloth that is used to make the sails. We (The Laser class) tell them what weight and composition the cloth must be (specification range). So if your a sail cloth manufacturer and you may produce say enough cloth for say a few 1000 Laser sails per year. This more then likely represents a small fraction of their business. Also you only have two customers to sell to North & Hyde. If they have to change the tooling (weaving looms or whatever machinery used to make the cloth) around to produce this small amount of cloth. This creates production downtime due to the change over. It makes making the cloth "labor intensive". Which in turn drives up the cost of the cloth the sail maker has to buy to produce class legal Laser sails.
For the Laser sailor in North America you can buy a practice sail almost 25% (23.3% to be precise) cheaper then a "racing" sail. I'm using a 2003 APS catalog for pricing, it shows a full rig North "racing" sail for $462, a Hyde "racing" sail for $538, and the practice sail for $359. The practice sail (I have never seen one) is made of a heavier cloth which should cost more to make you'd think. But they don't have to follow the class rules and specifications to produce them. hence a cheaper sail that could possibly perform as well or better then a "race" legal sail.
Perhaps sometime in the near future (I hope) our class (ILCA) will revisit the process of making the Laser sails with more modern production methods and find a better cloth to make them out of so they will last longer and be stronger.
The flip side to this is.... once the rules/regulation change happens, if it would ever happen all of the sails made prior to that date would become obsolete or possible could become illegal to race with.
Hope you enjoy this food for thought.
Fishingmickey
150087/181157
 
Canadian Prices Fogh Marine
Hyde Sail 850 CDN
North Sail 650 CDN

APS US Prices $1US=$1.18 CDN
Hyde $US538 = $634CDN
North $US462 = $ 545 CDN

Does any one have UK, Europe and Aus prices
 
Yuck...
It looks like Fogh marine has a pretty decent mark up. Dunno if there is any funky taxes thrown on it to make that price so skewed. Can you order online? Any other Canadian sources?
Fishingmickey
150087/181157
 
Add 15% retail tax to the CDN prices......I have never bought a sail in Canada in 21 years.

I am heading to the UK in Feb...any prices
 
Let me chime in...FishingMickey pretty much nailed it. The Laser Sail has to be hand cut not Laser (how ironic?) cut. The Club 420 sail that Sailor327 mentioned is cheaper $400USD vs $469USD for Laser sail. For people outside of North America the Club 420 is a heavy duty version of the Intl 420 with a non-tapered mast and all the sails must be built by North and purchased through dealers not direct from North. Because its a non-tapered mast the sails can be mass produced (no custom cutting) and cut with a laser. They also recently changed the cloth to a readily available heavier duty one. As mentioned the Laser sail panels can't be laser cut and the sail cloth used is unique to Laser sails only (I have been told that no other sail uses it). Intl 420 sails are more expensive the Laser or Club 420 sails because they are all custom cut to crew weight, mast bend, etc., but they can be purchased direct from the sailmaker so you would think they'd be cheaper. Finally regarding buying stuff in Canada, you need to add all the GST and other taxes to the price that helps pay for your socialist government, free medicine for all at what cost, eh? Also TurninGrey its almost 2005 not 1986 or 1992..
 
That is why I generally buy my sails in New York. With the exception of 1986. Out of State Purchase...No Taxes! With the strong CDN $. IT looks like a good time to buy in US. Sailing in Canada can be expensive but the "free drugs" are needed for us old timers.

UK prices anyone?
 
here in aus:
north standard sail 840.00= 648.791 USD = 772.668 CAD = 337.379 GBP

hyde standard sail 910 = 702.992 USD = 837.520 CAD = 365.455 GBP

Overall the US is the cheapest so far....

376 GBP from the lasersailing.com site
 
The answer to most questions is the answer to the riddle, "Why do dogs lick themselves?" Answer: Because they can.
A corollary to that is "When you have 'em by the balls, their hearts will follow."
 
Hey does anyone know how much a new "racing" sail costs in belgium/france i will be going there in febuary and fogh marine is trying to charge way to much for one.
thanks
dylan
 
Here in Holland:

Rolled Sail: € 635 = 868 USD
not rolled: € 590 = 806,77 USD

prices incl. VAT and Bag, Battens

I think the prices in France are the same...... because they have the euro too.
 
A rolled sail is one that is rolled up and shipped in a tube from the sail maker, as opposed to one that is folded up and shipped in a small box.

For cloth that is heavily resinated it's well worth it to pay the extra cost, as the resin tends to break down on the folds.

Laser cloth is not that type of cloth, so it's more a cosmetic preference when you first put up your new sail ( looking at fold lines that will come out as you break in the sail vs one w/o the fold lines)
 
ascella_dylan said:
Hey does anyone know how much a new "racing" sail costs in belgium/france i will be going there in febuary and fogh marine is trying to charge way to much for one.
thanks
dylan

Hi,
just saw your question. Maybe have a look here (sorry all in French):
http://www.paris-voile.tm.fr

Homepage of the French Laserclass: www.francelaser.org

If I find links for the same in Begium, I let you know here, ok.

Lasersail in Germany:
Std/Radial: Hyde (North not available here in GER): rolled: 620 Euro; folded: 575 Euro (inkluded: 16% tax) all without shippingcost.

The GER-Laser-stores are just raising the prices. A new Laser-XD-Race now cost over 6000 Euro!!! Thank-you, dear loved German-Laserstores...:( :(
(1Euro is about 1,3 US-$ at the cash-desk of the bank here in GER)
Cheers
LooserLu

PS: Don´t forget to visit the online-shop from PSE (at http://www.lasersailing.com). Sometimes they have "niceprice"-time.
 
49208 said:
A rolled sail is one that is rolled up and shipped in a tube from the sail maker, as opposed to one that is folded up and shipped in a small box.

For cloth that is heavily resinated it's well worth it to pay the extra cost, as the resin tends to break down on the folds.

Laser cloth is not that type of cloth, so it's more a cosmetic preference when you first put up your new sail ( looking at fold lines that will come out as you break in the sail vs one w/o the fold lines)

ok that makes sense i never fold new sails anyway i have a set of pipes hanging from the ceiling in my basement and i just hang my sails so they don't take on any permanent bad shape

dylan
 
On November 23rd, the Canadian government announced the possibility of imposing a 100 percent tariff on U.S-built recreation boats. The proposed tariff would apply to imported products from the U.S., including pleasure vessels such as yachts, sailboats, motorboats, inflatables and canoes.

The tariff is retaliation for the Byrd Amendment, a law that allows funds collected from antidumping fines and countervailing duties to be given to U.S. firms that petition for tax relief. The Byrd Amendment was challenged by a number of countries, including Canada, at the World Trade Organization (WTO). Subsequently the WTO has ruled that the Byrd Amendment violates international trade laws. The ruling then provides each of the WTO countries concerned with the right to implement a tariff on selected U.S. manufactured products.

The Canadian Marine Manufacturers Association (CMMA) is not in favour of the proposed tariff for the boating industry. “This tariff would be completely devastating to the Canadian boating industry” notes Sandy Currie, Executive Director, CMMA.

CMMA will be appealing to the Canadian government to have Chapter 89.03, “Yachts and other vessels for pleasure or sports; rowing boats and canoes” removed from the list of products for the proposed tariffs. CMMA is against this tariff being applied to any product in the boating industry.
In addition, CMMA supports an appeal of the Byrd Amendment and will be working with the other Marine Industry Associations in Canada and the National Marine Manufacturers Association on this issue.

CMMA does not want to see this tariff applied to the recreational boating industry in Canada and will be working with its members and the other trade associations to convince the government of the negative impact it would have on the Canadian boating industry.
 
TheBoathouse said:
On November 23rd, the Canadian government announced the possibility of imposing a 100 percent tariff on U.S-built recreation boats. The proposed tariff would apply to imported products from the U.S., including pleasure vessels such as yachts, sailboats, motorboats, inflatables and canoes.

The tariff is retaliation for the Byrd Amendment, a law that allows funds collected from antidumping fines and countervailing duties to be given to U.S. firms that petition for tax relief. The Byrd Amendment was challenged by a number of countries, including Canada, at the World Trade Organization (WTO). Subsequently the WTO has ruled that the Byrd Amendment violates international trade laws. The ruling then provides each of the WTO countries concerned with the right to implement a tariff on selected U.S. manufactured products.

The Canadian Marine Manufacturers Association (CMMA) is not in favour of the proposed tariff for the boating industry. “This tariff would be completely devastating to the Canadian boating industry” notes Sandy Currie, Executive Director, CMMA.

CMMA will be appealing to the Canadian government to have Chapter 89.03, “Yachts and other vessels for pleasure or sports; rowing boats and canoes” removed from the list of products for the proposed tariffs. CMMA is against this tariff being applied to any product in the boating industry.
In addition, CMMA supports an appeal of the Byrd Amendment and will be working with the other Marine Industry Associations in Canada and the National Marine Manufacturers Association on this issue.

CMMA does not want to see this tariff applied to the recreational boating industry in Canada and will be working with its members and the other trade associations to convince the government of the negative impact it would have on the Canadian boating industry.
oh luvly now fogh marine will be charging me 2000$/sail
dylan
 

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