laser and genders

M

max-ebb

New Member
let's say I want to set up a laser regatta with just one class with both genders competing together and yet offer equal opportunities to win to both males and females.
better shrink big guys in a radial or have women to deal with a standard?
if I choose the standard, is there a way to equalize things so that women and youths have a realistic chance to win?
I'm open to all suggestions.
thanks
Antonio
 
i think your goals will be very hard to achieve. Firstly, not many women own a standard rig, and even less are going to be heavy enough to sail one competitively.

Weight belts/packs are banned so it isnt possible to equalise sailor's weights.

The radial option sounds alot better to me
 
why not let both, standard and radial sail, and let the sailior choose depending pon their own weight and skill leval
 
thanks for the feedback.
let people choose would be ok, but a radial would be comparatively slower than a standard.
Forgetting for a moment about ILCA rules, what means would help women or lightweight sailors to equalize the situation?
extra weight bags, maybe allow some extra gear?
let's brainstorm a little please.
Is there any girl here interested in giving suggestions?
 
wearing weight belts or giving the competitors more gear to add weight would be ilegal.

but i must ask, why are you so determined on only having one fleet, why not run 2 classes, one for radial one for standard
 
max-ebb said:
thanks for the feedback.
let people choose would be ok, but a radial would be comparatively slower than a standard.
Click to expand...

I thought the Radial sail was actually faster than the standard. The cut of the sail does that. Could be mistaken.

Janet
 
there are two main reasons for my question:
1- plain curiosity
2- I'd like to set up a regatta to be sailed in a popular and affordable one -design (which of course is laser) and open to everybody regardless from gender, origin and yacht club/federation affiliation.
So the fact that a mean to help women to fill the gap is not allowed by ILCA would not necessarily be a problem.
I'm more focused on practical and viable solutions.

Antonio
 
hi Janet,
interesting point.
I'm admitedly not a proficient laser sailor so I hope some one has first hand information about the speed factor.

Antonio
 
radials are slower than a standard full rig just because of the size of sail, and the standard sail is the sail that fits the boat to gain optimum performance
 
Teeftie said:
radials are slower than a standard full rig just because of the size of sail, and the standard sail is the sail that fits the boat to gain optimum performance
Click to expand...

It's not that simple. (seems nothing ever is!) See the excerpt below from the history of the Laser on the Radial tuning website.

http://www.optimistusa.com/Radialtuning.asp#tuning6

"The sail is 18% smaller (62 sq. feet) than the full rig, but the center of effort of the sailplan is much lower. This means the Radial rig generates more power relative to heeling force than the full rig and so for lighter sailors allows performance and handling far better than they can achieve with the full rig. When it is quite windy, the Radial rig is faster upwind!"

Somewhere there's got to be handicap numbers that you can use for the various Lasers. Anybody know those?

Janet
 
Merrily said:
Somewhere there's got to be handicap numbers that you can use for the various Lasers.
Click to expand...

OK, so I knew I'd seen those numbers recently. Here's the handicap numbers and instructions for using them from the ILCA. There's also instructions for giving individuals handicaps based on skill at the website.

http://www.laserinternational.org/handicap.htm

"INTERNATIONAL LASER CLASS ASSOCIATION

HANDICAP NUMBERS
Sometimes we get asked "what are the handicap numbers for Lasers in mixed class racing". The numbers used by the Royal Yachting Association (GBR) in their Portsmouth Handicap system are:

Laser 1078
Laser Radial 1101
Laser 4.7 1175

The numbers can be used for handicapping different Laser rigs within a mixed fleet. To use the numbers convert the elapsed time into seconds. Divide the elapsed time by the handicap number and multiply by 1000 to achieve a corrected time.
The handicap numbers work best on races around 100 minutes long."

Janet
 
thanks Janet,
this is getting really interesting.
by the way, the pages you suggested are very cool.

Antonio
 
Hi Antonio,

I think having all sizes and genders have to pick the same rig would disadvantage either light people/standard rig/windy day or heavy people/radial/light day too much so they would probably not be competitive. Let folks pick their rig by conditions or what they like to sail. Most Laser sailors I know sail one or the other, but a few switch back and forth between rigs.

I think the best solution would be to have a Radial fleet and a full rig fleet, and start them separately. Second best would be start them together and score them separately. Third would be the handicapping, but I've never sailed with that and it seems weird (hey, we're Laser sailing. First guy to finish wins!) but maybe it would work. It probably adds a whole extra layer of hassle to race committee-not only do they have to keep track of all these closely finishing boats' sail numbers but also have to record their exact times.
If racing both together is your only option, use shorter courses so the fullrig's speed advantage has less chance to take over. Well-sailed Radials can hang with fullrigs under a lot of conditions, especially the windier it gets. Weight belts or jackets or whatever are a bad idea; I hear they can hurt people's backs who are not used to wearing them.
 
hi Michelle,
thanks for the response
I personallly agree with you 100%, nothing's cooler than one design racing, anything else is just a compromise.
I also believe in giving people otions and let them decide what is better, within certain basic rules.
Yet, if is there a way to make things more equals and still preserve the concept first to finish is the winner, that'd be very neat and rewarding for both competitors and spectators.

Antonio
 
At my club me and my mate are the only ones sailing the radials, so handicap racing is all we do!! im at a small club and there are only about 6 regular laser sailers so quite often im racing against much faster boats but the Portsmouth Handicap system seems to work quite well. Just this year iv started traveling to different clubs for open meetings and the fleet racing is alot more fun.
 
Hi,

It's pretty common in USA D7 to have one start for men, women and juniors. Men have to pick one rig for a regatta or series, and women and Juniors can change at will, depending on the days conditions.

We then give trophies to top 3, and top Woman, and top Junior. The top women and Juniors do quite well, and take their share of the top 3 spots quite often, as do the Masters.

New England summer sailing can be pretty light, to sometimes favor the lightweights. This may not work as well in a windy locale.

Al Russell 66451
 
wind conditions here (Baja California - Mexico) are very steady, wind is light, somewhat shifty near the coast and gets pretty steady, with little gusts one mile offshore, usually between 15-20 knots with waves average of 3-4 feet up to 6 feet max.
I think upwind a well sailed radial should do well as is wont be easily overpowered.

Antonio
 
Antonio,

Puhleeze, stop! LOL, our Dec-mar conditions in Vermont are 10-35 NW, no waves tho, but snowdrifts up to 6 feet! The Lasers are hanging in the Barn til May. Need a sailing coach?

Radial would be a tough choice, as they lose offwind, and might not surf your conditions as well. I'm 160 lbs. and would never choose a radial, if full rig was allowed, but it might work for a 120 pounder.

Just open it up for the lightweights, and let experience decide. Sailing is as close to fair as it gets for m/f competition, I think, so you should encourage one start, otherwise you'll never know. D7 has some women who are always top 5, and I can't imagine they'd ever want a seperate start.

Enjoy,

Al Russell 66451 (and my new 138888)
 
Al,
Ok, this is off topic and most likely unfair, but today here is a day you won't believe it.
Sparkling blue water, 80 degrees, waves about 2 feet, steady 15 knows breeze.
I look out the window and feel like a fool for being seated at my computer.
In Ensenada we have 300+ good sailing days per year.
Take care.
Antonio
 
max-ebb said:
Al,
Ok, this is off topic and most likely unfair, but today here is a day you won't believe it.
Sparkling blue water, 80 degrees, waves about 2 feet, steady 15 knows breeze.
I look out the window and feel like a fool for being seated at my computer.
In Ensenada we have 300+ good sailing days per year.
Take care.
Antonio
Click to expand...

You are a wicked man, Antonio. ;)

Merrily
 
Sounds nice, Antonio!

I think I'll start a whine about how our water here is only 72 degrees now and the wind only blew 5 knots today and a cloud covered up the sun for awhile, but somebody from NA Districts 1-10 or 18-22 might just tell me to shut the *bleep* up! :D
 
well i don't think you can complain at all.
if you sail a laser Florida is the place to be eheheheh.

Antonio
 
max-ebb said:
Al,
Sparkling blue water, 80 degrees, waves about 2 feet, steady 15 knows breeze.
Antonio
Click to expand...

By the way, what's the water temperature now and in the summer?

Merrily
 
today is 63 degrees, waves between 2 and 4 feet at 12 seconds frequency.
in the summer the average is around 77

Antonio
 
Merrily said:
By the way, what's the water temperature now and in the summer?

Merrily
Click to expand...

today is 63 degrees, waves between 2 and 4 feet at 12 seconds frequency.
in the summer the average is around 77

Antonio
 
max-ebb said:
Al,
Ok, this is off topic and most likely unfair, but today here is a day you won't believe it.
Sparkling blue water, 80 degrees, waves about 2 feet, steady 15 knows breeze.
I look out the window and feel like a fool for being seated at my computer.
In Ensenada we have 300+ good sailing days per year.
Take care.
Antonio
Click to expand...

up in ontario we have probably about the same number of good sailing days each year its just a question of wether or not you chose to take advantage of them or not (i'm speaking of the days when it is 15-25knts 2-6 foot waves depending on wind direction, sunny, clear and minus 35 degrees celcius!!)

dylan
 
What about letting standards and radials start together, but having separate scoring for juniors, adult radials, adult full rig? If you do short courses, the boats won't be separated by much. That way you combine the tactical fun of lots of boats on the start and lots of boats at mark roundings, with separate scoring.
 
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