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Keeping the daggerboard down

usa318

New Member
I have recently bought a new laser. I have sailed in the past and never noticed the daggerboard raising (in all conditions) as much as it does currently.

I'm using relitivly thick one strand bungie connected to the bow eye, traveling along one side of the mast. The bungie appears to sit in between the control cleats on the deck at a slight angle.

Are there any rigging solutions for this? Would I be better off with a continious bungie passing through the board and on both sides of the mast?

Any suggestions would be greatly apprecaited, I can't stand having to slam it down all the time.

Thanks!
 

ChalmersP

Member
It sounds like I have the same setup as you, but I have a little piece of line, 1/8" or smaller, that is tied like a retainer between the deck blocks. When you have your bungee rigged through there, it prevents it from getting caught in the vang at the leeward mark.
 

harpo

Member
Mine does the same thing -- damned new boat is so slick the daggerboard won't stay down. Still trying to figure it out myself.
 

marginal

Member
Things that help (in order of effectiveness in my experience)
1. Put a small peice of velcro (loop side) in the front of the daggerboard trunk, as per the class rule change allowing htis last year. Also prevents wear
2. Concentrate of keeping the flow constant on the board. It pops up when the flow over the board changes. I didn't expain that very well
3. Have your bungee just tight enough, not over tight
4. Ensure the brake is new and properly adjusted

The above works for me. Some boats seem to be worse than others.
 

laser11

Member
I have the same problem, I find it pops up when I tack and then I have to reach in and hit it down (or kick it with my heel). I find if I can stuff some control line in the gap between the board and the trunk before the start (once settings adjusted) it helps keep it down.
 

AlanD

Former ISAF Laser Measurer
A quick glance at that APS system makes me think that it's not legal. Jean Luc can rule on it, but the rule says
A tie line or shock cord shall be attached to the small hole in the upper forward corner of the centreboard, and any of the bow eye, the cunningham fairlead, the “Builder Supplied” deck block fitting and the mast to prevent loss of the centreboard in event of a capsize. The tie line or shock cord may be looped around the bow, but shall not be attached to the gunwale. Attachment can be by knots or loops in the shock cord, and/or tie lines, shackles, clips, hooks or eyes.
Basically you can't have both a tie line and shock cord. The issue is not with the yellow line permanently fixed to the centreboard, but the blue line that is permanently attached to the shockcord. Also the "handle" to help remove the clip would be considered IMO to be a "new fitting" which is also deemed illegal.

The tie down system mentioned above is also obviously illegal.
 

Sailorchick

Member
Make sure your centre board brake is in good condition and correctly positioned.

Put velcro (as per class rules) on front of the centreboard case.

With these set up correctly your board will stay put without the elastic
 

Wavedancer

Upside down?
Staff member
A quick glance at that APS system makes me think that it's not legal. Jean Luc can rule on it, but the rule says

Basically you can't have both a tie line and shock cord. The issue is not with the yellow line permanently fixed to the centreboard, but the blue line that is permanently attached to the shockcord. Also the "handle" to help remove the clip would be considered IMO to be a "new fitting" which is also deemed illegal.
Thanks for pointing that out; I will save my money....
 

AlanD

Former ISAF Laser Measurer
Sometimes I wonder if these people that try to commercialise their ideas bother to read the rules or ask if what they are suggesting is legal. Actually that probably goes for everyone.
 

Soggy Bottom

New Member
Hello Alan,
Thanks for always replying to these rules questions....The last sentence of the rule states "Attachment can be by knots or loops in the shock cord, and/or tie lines". Doesn't this mean that you can attach the shock with a tie line?
 

AlanD

Former ISAF Laser Measurer
Attachment can be by knots or loops in the shock cord, and/or tie lines, shackles, clips, hooks or eyes.
Reading that last sentence is pretty mudling , it's very badly worded. I might leave this one to Clive and Tracy to sort out with Jean-Luc. But yes, you can use a piece of line to attach the shockcord, typically you do this with the loop of cord which passes through the hole of the front of the centreboard, in combination with a hook or clip.
 

SFBayLaser

Member
Reading that last sentence is pretty mudling , it's very badly worded. I might leave this one to Clive and Tracy to sort out with Jean-Luc. But yes, you can use a piece of line to attach the shockcord, typically you do this with the loop of cord which passes through the hole of the front of the centreboard, in combination with a hook or clip.
Interestingly, Jean-Luc Michon saw the APS ad when reading the Summer issue of The Laser Sailor and immediately sent an email to me saying they were advertising an illegal set up. So, no question in his mind. I believe he and the designer of this set up at APS are now in communication over what the issue is exactly and what modifications they can make to satisfy the rules.

This is speculation on my part but I believe the primary issue centers on the question of when does a tie line stop being a tie line and start to have another function. Clearly having the tie line long enough to lay between the deck cleats gives it another function - to help prevent the board from rising. But this is just my guess as to Jean-Luc's issue with this and I think we have to wait to see what he and the APS representative come up with.
 

torrid

Just sailing
Sometimes I wonder if these people that try to commercialise their ideas bother to read the rules or ask if what they are suggesting is legal. Actually that probably goes for everyone.
I'm not saying it is the best was to improve the rules., but in some cases these one-off ideas become adopted as legal. For example, metal spring clips in the auto-bailer.
 

AlanD

Former ISAF Laser Measurer
I'm not disagreeing Torrid, in fact like the Bottleport, both idea have merrit and probably require the rules to be amended, but as the rules are currently written both are illegal. What my issue is with this system is that APS is producing something commercially and specifically targeting the Laser class without finding out if it's legal. If someone has an idea, try it out, develop it in a non racing environment and then approach the technical committee to determine if it's legal or if they consider it significant enough for the rules to be altered, it doesn't matter if some bloke who only sails in some backwater club, a potential Olympian or someone with significant commercial interests.
 

laserxd

Member
APS developed a (daggerboard downhaul) kit to address the problem:

http://photos.apsltd.com/Other/The-Stern-Scoop/7089741_qTBgK#913069756_67mv2-A-LB

Don't know its real life performance.... Maybe somebody else can chime in.
I did the same idea as this on my boat, it works very well, no one has called me out on it yet for being "illegal" even its not technically legal the rules should be changed asap because it does do its job unlike the oem intended setup

I believe you are permitted to put velcro or rigging tape on the top front of the daggerboard trunk to help keep the board down, this helps as well
 

AlanD

Former ISAF Laser Measurer
I did the same idea as this on my boat, it works very well, no one has called me out on it yet for being "illegal" even its not technically legal the rules should be changed asap because it does do its job unlike the oem intended setup
Let's be frank, technically it is illegal. But since you believe the rules should be changed, what have you done to get the rule changed? It's up the sailors to get rule changes considered, not the technical / measurement committee of the ILCA.
 
Interestingly, Jean-Luc Michon saw the APS ad when reading the Summer issue of The Laser Sailor and immediately sent an email to me saying they were advertising an illegal set up. So, no question in his mind. I believe he and the designer of this set up at APS are now in communication over what the issue is exactly and what modifications they can make to satisfy the rules.

This is speculation on my part but I believe the primary issue centers on the question of when does a tie line stop being a tie line and start to have another function. Clearly having the tie line long enough to lay between the deck cleats gives it another function - to help prevent the board from rising. But this is just my guess as to Jean-Luc's issue with this and I think we have to wait to see what he and the APS representative come up with.
Hi All,
APS has been in communication with ILCA Chief Measurer (Jean-Luc Michon) for several months now regarding our Pro Daggerboard Downhaul Kit (http://bit.ly/APSLaserProDaggerboardUpgrade). He met recently with the Laser Class Measurement Committee - and he has just informed us that they have determined that the APS system is class Legal because rule 14.f allows for multiple forms of attachment. We are happy to continue to provide this system along with many others for the Laser to help our customers get the most out of their boats.
 

sorosz

Member
Hi All,
APS has been in communication with ILCA Chief Measurer (Jean-Luc Michon) for several months now regarding our Pro Daggerboard Downhaul Kit (http://bit.ly/APSLaserProDaggerboardUpgrade). He met recently with the Laser Class Measurement Committee - and he has just informed us that they have determined that the APS system is class Legal because rule 14.f allows for multiple forms of attachment. We are happy to continue to provide this system along with many others for the Laser to help our customers get the most out of their boats.
Do you know if they are issuing a measurer's ruling or something official?

I had the APS set up at the Masters Worlds and was told I had to change it to measure in. I had to remove the line attached to the bungee cord and tie the shackle to the daggerboard. It worked ok but not quite as good as the original setup so I'd like to go back to that if it's now officially ok.
 

Emilio Castelli

Active Member
Do you know if they are issuing a measurer's ruling or something official?

I had the APS set up at the Masters Worlds and was told I had to change it to measure in. I had to remove the line attached to the bungee cord and tie the shackle to the daggerboard. It worked ok but not quite as good as the original setup so I'd like to go back to that if it's now officially ok.
I had the same setup at the Masters Worlds and had no problems.
E
 

AlanD

Former ISAF Laser Measurer
I had the same setup at the Masters Worlds and had no problems.
E
As a measurer, you've generally got a long queue of boats needing measuring and a limited time to do it in, give me an hour per boat and I can virtually guarantee to find something, but I'll only measure 12 boats per day, instead of the 150-200 boats I need to measure, we're going to miss things. Some measurers concentrate on certain issues, others on other things, what we hope people do is say, "well such & such wasn't allowed and I'll let everyone I see with that know it's illegal" rather than "I was let through with such & such, so it must be legal", unless you specifically request something to be interpreted as being legal or illegal by Jean-Luc and the technical committee, then I wouldn't read to much in to something being legal if it's in a greyish area.
 

jeffers

Active Member
I have found that as long as your brake is set correctly and the chock cord tension is not too tight then the dagger board tends to stay where you put it. No need for additonal complexity of extra lines and downhauls.... Just my 2p as always...
 

laserxd

Member
"Thank you for your submission.

The Chief Measurer Jean-Luc Michon has now fully considered this (after discussing with APS) and has ruled that this configuration is legal within the current set of rules.

We will be adding a photograph of this as being legal to the ILCA web site in due course.

Regards

Clive Humphris"

Now Officially Legal!!!
 

glasky

Member
Listen to this guy
" It sounds like I have the same setup as you, but I have a little piece of line, 1/8" or smaller, that is tied like a retainer between the deck blocks. When you have your bungee rigged through there, it prevents it from getting caught in the vang at the leeward mark. "

Just put some gaffer tape on the centrecase top front edge and pull the board back slightly as u raise or lower it to minimise wear on the front leading edge.

If a measurer gives u trouble on the bit of thin line at the luff tension/outhaul deck turning blocks rig it so it is the "Mast retaining cord" that deflects the cboard shock cord low and undr the vang block"
 
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