Class Politics JC Boom Sleeve - Production Prototype pics

SFBayLaser

Member
I received a production prototype from John Christianson and have (finally!) got some pictures of it on a boom hooked into a sail. There are four pictures attached, let me know if you want to see any other views. And, of course, feel free to ask any questions!

Tracy
 

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Hi Tracy, the new Clew Tie Down looks great!
3 questions I have:
- How to prevent wearing (abrasion of the surface) at the boom?

- How in future is planned, to place the trimm-stickers ("15 cm"-mark, "20 cm"-mark etc. ...) for the outhaul in that way, that they not have to be replaced aft a while the new Clew Tie Down went over them? Using a permanent-marker-pen (f.e. white for the black anodized booms and blue, black or another color of a permanent-marker-pen for the silver anodized boom)

- Isn't it better, to have the gromment inside of the new Clew Tie Down (I mean: using a shackle instead of the hook)

Ciao
Ludwig
 
it would work better if the outhaul line were rigged slightly differently.

The line in the photo is led such that the moving part on the block is against the boom and it can bind.

You can rig the line going through the pulley so it runs in the opposite direction.
The dead end can be tied as a bowline that goes around the boom twice and uses the back end of the blue eye to keep it from sliding toward the gooseneck.
Then the line goes up through the pulley and then back to the inside of the blue eye.

The described rig
lessens binding inside the eye
lowers the load on the eye by 1/3
looks really cool
 
gouvernail said:
i
You can rig the line going through the pulley so it runs in the opposite direction.
The dead end can be tied as a bowline that goes around the boom twice and uses the back end of the blue eye to keep it from sliding toward the gooseneck.
Then the line goes up through the pulley and then back to the inside of the blue eye.

So you are saying to tie a bowline to the aft end of the eye and wrap the line around the end of the boom twice? Then run the line from the bottom up through the block on the new outhaul sleeve and on through the eye?
 
it looks perfets, but depending on hat side you rig the hook, you have to have the outhaul line on the opposite side so the hook and line dont interfear, and i think all will be well

i cant wait to get mine!:D
 
salsa 88082 said:
it looks perfets, but depending on hat side you rig the hook, you have to have the outhaul line on the opposite side so the hook and line dont interfear, and i think all will be well

i cant wait to get mine!:D

Actually the line goes on the block which is in the center behind the hook, so there is no worry there.
 
MY suggesation for tying the line is similar to what is shown in the photo. I am not certain you can use the lower loop to help hold the outhaul....nothing in the rules says you can...
But you may use the plastic fairlead to hold the oiuthaul line. So instead of tying the loop as shown, I think you should tie it so it "figure eights" around the boom. Ust the fairlead on top to stop the line and dip it under the boom and back to the top.
http://schrothfiberglass.com/images/clew_shackle.jpg
 

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Sorry for not getting to this sooner! I kept getting distracted...
LooserLu said:
Hi Tracy, the new Clew Tie Down looks great!
3 questions I have:
- How to prevent wearing (abrasion of the surface) at the boom?
This has not so far been a problem in my experience. The fitting is sliding along the boom but not really scraping. Maybe over the long term with lots of usage it will scrape through the anodizing, I suppose we will see...

LooserLu said:
- How in future is planned, to place the trimm-stickers ("15 cm"-mark, "20 cm"-mark etc. ...) for the outhaul in that way, that they not have to be replaced aft a while the new Clew Tie Down went over them? Using a permanent-marker-pen (f.e. white for the black anodized booms and blue, black or another color of a permanent-marker-pen for the silver anodized boom)

I guess since I never use them I don't have an answer. But it sounds to me like using a marker will work.

LooserLu said:
- Isn't it better, to have the gromment inside of the new Clew Tie Down (I mean: using a shackle instead of the hook)

The point of the hook is to provide a simple quick release. I doubt you can really get the clew closer to the boom with any sort of hook, shackle, etc. since the cloth of the sail is already hitting the boom. You can, of course, use a tie down line or a clew strap to get it a bit closer since then you can strap the grommet right down on the boom. I've not yet had any indication that at my level of sailing I can detect any performance difference...
 
gouvernail said:
it would work better if the outhaul line were rigged slightly differently.

The line in the photo is led such that the moving part on the block is against the boom and it can bind.

You can rig the line going through the pulley so it runs in the opposite direction.
The dead end can be tied as a bowline that goes around the boom twice and uses the back end of the blue eye to keep it from sliding toward the gooseneck.
Then the line goes up through the pulley and then back to the inside of the blue eye.

The described rig
lessens binding inside the eye
lowers the load on the eye by 1/3
looks really cool

As you point out, the real problem is the line rubbing on itself in the eye at the end of the boom. Old habits die hard I guess, I'm trained to dead-end the line at that eye, hence you avoid most of the friction of the line rubbing on itself there by running it the way it is shown. I don't really notice any friction from that particular type of line rubbing on the boom...

I should try to remember to try it the way you have described if that helps...
 
The bowline around the boom system was used by a bunch of sailors at some bigshot regatta a few years ago. Since my skill level seems stagnant or probably worse than that, I decided to copy the hotshots.
That was at least 10 years ago. Recently I have not noticed anybody with the bowline around the boom system except me.
maybe the system is dumb??

But I don't know why and I think it is cool looking so I do it.
 
crazyuncle said:
How does the shockcord tie on to the sleeve? Can't see from your pictures.

Good question, I've not thought about it. I don't use a shock cord, it not really being necessary, IMHO, in anything but the lightest winds and... well... that's not an issue where I sail normally.

But... maybe hook into the clew grommet?
 
Sarah B said:
I don't use the harken hook , but the holt one, how will that work with the slider? .

I believe that the JC Boom Sleeve is a complete unit as shown, including hook and block.

Also, I added shockcord to the trial boom sleeve that SFBayLaser gave me. There's plenty of light air at my club. I tried the sleeve without a shockcord and it didn't return easily in light air. I had to use 3/16 inch and was just able to fit it through and tie it to the pin that holds the hook. It worked well then.
 
so Tracy, when will it be available to the rest of us? i would really like to try one out!
 
I might have missed it but is there a projected all up cost of the sleeve?
 
salsa 88082 said:
so Tracy, when will it be available to the rest of us? i would really like to try one out!

Well, if you are talking about the production version then first it must be approved by the membership. Voting closes July 31, if you haven't yet voted (and are a Class Member) then go to http://www.laserinternational.org/rules2006.htm and caste your vote now!

If approved then I would imagine you could buy one in time for Christmas, I'd think.

If you want to try one out, I'll be at the US Nationals and will bring it with me. Obviously, it can't be used during racing but if people want to do test sails after the day's racing then it could be arranged.
 
stinky said:
I might have missed it but is there a projected all up cost of the sleeve?

I don't know what the final retail price will be. I have **HEARD** (and I don't have anything to do with pricing so if it is different in the end don't blame me!) that it MIGHT be less than $40, with hook and block.

By the way, I'm told that the hook is significantly different from the currently marketed Harken hook, though I don't have one to compare with.
 
Sarah B said:
golly - thats a lot! $40 is more than twice the cost of a holt block with hook and piece of string! Eek!

Thats not that bad, a Clew strap comes out to about $20 and a hook and block comes out to like $16. So compared to that, its only about 4 dollars more expensive, but is a much more efficient product.
 
It's a marvelous product. I've been trying one out and it will be worth every penny to buy a second one for the second boat. There is no binding of line or friction as the sleeve moves along the boom. Finally, an outhaul that I don't have to flick to get it to release.
 
I would be surprised if the retail price was $40.00 when compared to the other Vanguard supplied parts. All up with all the parts $60.00 to 80.00 might be it.

Before voting the price might be nice to have nailed down.
 
so uhhh... does it work? what is the friction like, will we all have to mclube our boom before each sail?
 
157800 said:
so uhhh... does it work? what is the friction like, will we all have to mclube our boom before each sail?

It works. Very little friction. McLube only in light air. Also, under $40 is what I heard. I hope people vote for this because I'll stamp my feet if I have to give this up!
 
In response to some messages on the Laser e-mail list, Chip Johns (who knows) posted the following message (and gave permission for it to be re-posted here):

I quoted $50 and this is what the retail price will probably be.

Vote!

BTW, I have been using one all spring, I love the convenience. My daughter
likes that it is easier to adjust the outhaul which is critical for a 95
pounder sailing a 4.7.


Chip Johns
 
The builders love it when we demand "builders only" supplies for our racing addictions. Our vote to allow this part will help the wallets of our fine builders.
Well funded builders help the game. I am OK with well funded builders.

Now the other shoe drops>>>
1. It cost us some money to publicize the new part and to sell it to the membership.
2. It cost us money to hold a vote.
3. It will cost us more money to tell the sailors about the new part and to publish new rules about the part
4. it will cost us money and effort to enforce the rule which allows the builders to monopoloze the supply stream.


I propose the new fitting be sold in North America with a $5 per fitting royalty fee and a sticker attached to reflect the payment of the fee. The rule should clearly state that No stickerless fitting may be used in any Laser race in North America.

If none of us but 2000 NA Class members buy the fitting, we will have enough to buy a new Laser, trailer, boat cover, life jacket, hiking pants, Gore Tex top, dolly, and protective gloves for the valuable fingers of the the dedicated fellow who hosts the Laser Forum.

Also, if Vanguard produces 1000 new Lasers per year rigged with the fitting we could pay virtually the entire annual postage for our North American Newsletter.

We could all do a much better job of promoting Lasers if the builders and Associations would make certain each other are always well funded!!!
 
John Christianson looked at the pictures I posted and reminded me that the correct way to run the outhaul line has it going to the right side of the fitting, not the left as I have it. My excuse is a combination of "I'm right handed" and "I've always done it that way."

Here are John's comments:

Tracy,
The final integrity of this fitting rests on the sail never coming off by accident.
When the sheet is on the port side along with the open end of the hook, a slight
risk exists that the sheet could, in some way, push the long straight hook end
forward and release the sail. I'll admidt it might never happen but if a risk exists,
a moving line running over the hook, possibly snagging it, is that risk.It would be
the same motion as a human hand twisting it to release the sail.
I see no reason to add an unneeded risk. As to the cotter pin fraying the sheet,
I have been watching that for years and see no interference.

Some details:
The reason we do not use the more common ring-ding instead of the straight
cotter pin is because forces in the sleeve cause the ring-ding to stand up,
which would interfere with the sheet.A stainless 1/16" cotter is a common
hardware store item.
I can almost guarantee that some will mount the hook backwards, pointing to
starboard, which although it looks almost normal is unstable and allows the
sail to come off. This is a bit humerous as it seems no amount of clear instructions
even with pictures, will stop some from doing it.
JC



Yes, I did once mount it backwards and, as he says, it was very humorous to everyone watching me flail around...
 
I'm all for inventors (John C) and builders who support the class making money.

At the same time, I kind of like the model we have for tillers and tiller extensions.

I'd be in favor of a rule change that says:

The clew of the sail shall be attached to the boom by a tie line or by some other means that holds the clew in close proximity to the boom, that permits outhaul adjustment, and that does not have the effect of stiffening the boom, pulling the clew below the top edge of the boom, or extending the clew attachment point outboard of the outhaul fairlead at the end of the boom.

If this rule passed, I'd buy the JC strap at $40-50, and I'll bet most of us would.. As someone else pointed out, it's about the same price as a clewstrap plus a little block plus a hook, and it's better. At the same time, we avoid passing an overly restrictive rule.
 
So, never having to apply the Laser rules to my sailing, does this mean that the folks that are making these out of schedule 40 PVC pipe will now be legal?

Just saying that $40 for a part that you can make for $4 seems like it has "boat disease" where anything you buy that goes on or near a boat is 3x the price it should be...

I have to admit that the PVC seems like a much better material than the metal, but my newbie flag is still flying high...
 
Thanks to Merrily, i just recived a prototype of the JC Boom Sleeve. I just finished putting it on my boom, and it looks and works perfectly. I actualy had trouble putting it on and tying it to my outhaul line because it kept on mooving up and down the boom. Now that it is on, i can see that i wont be needing my mclube any more. The price i spend on mclube every year for my laser will definately offset the price for the boom sleeve. I will be going to regatas in the north east, and will be bringing it with me for people to try.
 
Chris123 said:
.... I kind of like the model we have for tillers and tiller extensions.

I'd be in favor of a rule change that says:

The clew of the sail shall be attached to the boom by a tie line or by some other means that holds the clew in close proximity to the boom, that permits outhaul adjustment, and that does not have the effect of stiffening the boom, pulling the clew below the top edge of the boom, or extending the clew attachment point outboard of the outhaul fairlead at the end of the boom.

Rules and new laws almost always follow the money. I am certainly not trying to say anyone is improperly setting himself or his company up for any improper profit. I am also not saying the new sleeve is being promoted by anyone who would personally profit from its distribution.

However

No one who has been involved in the creation of the new rule would make any significant personal profit from your rule.

So... Just as lots of other obviously fair and decent rules never are proposed or voted upon...Your rule had no supporter at the right time and place.

I love your rule!!

Too bad it had no timely and adequate selfish support.

Have you ever considered using your youth and vigor to get involved, figure it out, and run the Laser Class??

I would vote for you!!
 
gouvernail said:
Have you ever considered using your youth and vigor to get involved, figure it out, and run the Laser Class??

I would vote for you!!

Youth and vigor? I'm a grey bearded fat old geezer, Fred! It's Monday afternoon and my knees are still complaining to me about Saturday morning's racing.

I race a laser because, as personal expressions of midlife crises go, it's cheaper than driving a red sports car and more family-friendly than taking up with a mistress!

But I do get involved -- at the grass roots level. I helped build up a frostbiting fleet last winter, and I'm probably going to be trying to build up a summertime fleet next year.
 
I've been using the JC sleeve set-up for about 3 weeks now. It's a very nice piece of gear, and the hook as supplied with it is 1000% better than the 2 (or more) earlier Harken hooks. The ears on the sleeve hold the hook in the right place, so it's geometry works quite well to hold, and as a quick release.

I use a single wrap around the boom end, kinda like Fred suggested, and the static portion of the outhaul passing the the block on the bottom side. The rest of the primary runs down the starboard side. No inhaul, nor McLube so far, just to give it a fair test. To ease at the WM I just blow the cleated line, with a knot at max ease. In light air it doesn't exactly run out easily(w/o the inhaul), but is usually fully eased by the time I'm done with everything else. Easing on the way into the WM would make it slide easily, but I'm often too busy to do this.

I had been using a clew strap, and the single loop over the boom end. My primary is that slippery vectran stuff, so lately I've skipped the block/shackle/hook routine, and just pass the end loop thru the sail, and slip it on the boom end. Simple, secure and quick release (and cheap).

I'd guess the JC has about 1/10 the friction of a clew strap.

The new rule doesn't seem too restrictive to me, So I'm voting "for".

Al Russell 182797
 
one thing i forgot to mention. I love the hook because it is much longer than the standardd harken hook that i used to use.
 

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