Class Politics Is it really a one design class?

I'm not trying to make a fuss this thread is for everyone to state what they think about the laser's one classness Ross you and everyone can say whatever you whant about what you think one design is or means that is what this thread is about, I'm not getting worked up I'm just stating my opinion.:rolleyes:
 
I'm guessing that the first test that any new sail design will have to pass is that it offers as close as possible to the same performance as a new sail of the current design - I doubt that the class will ever introduce a change that gives a significant advantage to one group of sailors over another. What that means is same sail shape with possibly a different cloth and/or a different panel layout, and other features that improve durability.

The second test would be that its performance after 12 months use is better than the performance of a 12 month old sail of the current design. There is no point in changing the sail if it doesn't pass this test. I would think that there would also be cost restrictions factored in.

Increased cost aside, I don't see any reason why people wouldn't want to vote for such a sail, as no one would be disadvantaged by its introduction.
 
Everyone in the laser class has the same choice to pay the same price for the same parts that make you go the same speed. Whether you are using the old rigging or the new rigging the boat has the same sail area and weighs the same. All the parts are required to be provided by a laser dealer. I don't really see a valid argument for this not being a one design. You could say that a older boat may not be as fast as a newer boat. If the older boat was originally taken care of chances are its better then the new boat. People can complain all they want about the laser not being a one design, well I say if the laser is not a one design there is no such thing as a one design.
 
Only class legal parts. If their not class legal, then neither is your boat!
 
but their not class legal, which defeats the purpose of one design
 
I use all class legal and I don't know anyone who doesn't. I think thats more of a European problem because parts there are even more expensive, but don't take my word for it i wouldn't know.
 
On rooster sailing .com they were adveritising replica parts saying the were cheeper and that they weren't class legal but good for pracrice. So only in europe its a problem?
 
No it's a big problem here too. I think it happens much less near me, in SoCal, just because of the amount of money that gets thrown around here. But it does happen a lot in the US.
What it basically boils down to, is that if a shop can make and sail, for any class, legal or not, and make a profit, they will!
 
You can "practice" w/any gear you want. I use a non-class legal Intensity Sail for practice sailing so I don't wear out my $530.00 class sail.

Just don't show up to the race course with your non-class legal practice gear.
 
I have 2 older haarstick sails one is a practice sail and one is a racing sail. The new one has barely been used. Did Haarstick stop making laser sails.
 
I have 2 older haarstick sails one is a practice sail and one is a racing sail. The new one has barely been used. Did Haarstick stop making laser sails.

Yes. A looooong time ago. I had one in '89-'91 or so. Some folks said they were better heavy air sails, but I never really liked mine. This was around the time the North laser sails came out with the "new numbers 3.8" sail and I thought they were a better material. At least they felt better to me.

Either way you can race with the Harstick sail if you want.
 
every sailmaker will make Laser sails, but they don't have a contract for them, and their not legal
 
Because when you look at it, It can get pretty boaring of you have long beats. Compare it to a star. a 2" difference in where the crew hikes can make a ENORMOUS difference. You are CONSTANTLY tuning the back stays to adjusting shift. If you dont have that backstay all the way in, your settings are off.

Lasers, you really just get in and go. Its pretty mindless.
 
Uh, you can't bee, (get it, I said bee) serious. There, (not their) is a lot of technique involved in sailing a Laser. If you think one more inch of extension in hiking in a laser does not make as big a difference in the Laser as a star then ask Andy Campbell's opinion.

have you ever sailed a star?

You can not seriously tell me that racing say a farr 40, finn, star, etc is not mindless.

Compared to other boats, lasers are EASY!
 
have you ever sailed a star?

You can not seriously tell me that racing say a farr 40, finn, star, etc is not mindless.

Compared to other boats, lasers are EASY!


Lasers are pretty tame, but not necessarily easy, their more about the tactics and boat handling. With Finns and Stars, you also get to learn different rig settings, and you have more controls, which makes life very nice.
 
Lasers are pretty tame, but not necessarily easy, their more about the tactics and boat handling. With Finns and Stars, you also get to learn different rig settings, and you have more controls, which makes life very nice.

Ha! GOD HAS SPOKEN!

Thanks ross!
 
How fast are finns and stars compared to lasers?

Finns are a smidge faster than the Laser upwind, downwind the Laser will often have an advantage as we can plane, but Finns can surf waves, and don't plow nose first into them, they just slice through them. I would still say Finn's are faster, but it depends on the point of sail I guess.

For Stars, forget it, their faster all around.

*Also look at the Portsmouth Yardstick numbers. My current records show that the Star is at 83.1, and the Laser comes in at 91.1, and the Finn at 90.1, so it's just slightly faster. Also of interest is the Europe, which is at 92.8. And all are Olympic. These are numbers from March 2006. I have older numbers which can be 3 to 4 places different, so they do change
 
Compared to other boats, lasers are EASY!

If you find sailing Lasers is easy, then you must be doing it so well you're winning all the time. So how many world, national and district Laser titles have you won?:confused:

It's interesting that you think Tom Slingsby's sailing is mindless......is that why you beat him all the time? Or is it possible that you are actually missing out on a lot of what makes Laser racing so challenging?
 
If you find sailing Lasers is easy, then you must be doing it so well you're winning all the time. So how many world, national and district Laser titles have you won?:confused:

It's interesting that you think Tom Slingsby's sailing is mindless......is that why you beat him all the time? Or is it possible that you are actually missing out on a lot of what makes Laser racing so challenging?

1. District 10 champs- 1st place
2. mayra midsummers-1st
etc etc


I didn't say it was easy, I said its not the hardest boat to sail once you start sailing more "advanced boats" (defiantly trying not to sound like a douche)
 
1. District 10 champs- 1st place
2. mayra midsummers-1st
etc etc


I didn't say it was easy, I said its not the hardest boat to sail once you start sailing more "advanced boats" (defiantly trying not to sound like a douche)


Are you comparing your results from these events as putting you on par with Singsby?
 
have you ever sailed a star?

You can not seriously tell me that racing say a farr 40, finn, star, etc is not mindless.

Compared to other boats, lasers are EASY!

You can not compare a Farr 40, or Star at all with a Laser. The simple fact that they have, uh, CREW completely change the dynamics. Not to mention they sport stayed/supported rigs, headsails and numerous other "tweeky" options.

However, body position, body movements, (within the rule 42 unbrella) sail settings, traveller settings, hiking strap settings, blade condition, body condition, weight, height and so on are important elements for a serious Laser racer. The tactics between the classes follow the same principles.

The Finn is a more "tweeky" boat due to the fact alone that serious sailors have sails and carbon spars designed to their body weight and sailing style.

However, to say the laser is a "get in it and sail" type boat is irresponsible for the "New" boat owners we have reading these messages. For them to have the idea they can get in it, race with a fleet and finish well is setting them up for disappointment. It is possible if you are an experienced, successful sailor w/dingy experience already, but for the true "newbie" it will take time and practice to get things right.
 
1. District 10 champs- 1st place
2. mayra midsummers-1st
etc etc


I didn't say it was easy, I said its not the hardest boat to sail once you start sailing more "advanced boats" (defiantly trying not to sound like a douche)


I suggest you be humble about your results, and not go spouting off your placings.
 
1. District 10 champs- 1st place
2. mayra midsummers-1st
etc etc


I didn't say it was easy, I said its not the hardest boat to sail once you start sailing more "advanced boats" (defiantly trying not to sound like a douche)

There were only 2 radials at the District 10 champs. There was only one race in radials at the MAYRA Mid-Summer Regatta. Your results, while a good accomplishment for a junior sailor, are not good enough for you to use in support of your position that sailing a Laser is easy.

Sailing a Laser is different from sailing a boat like a Star. They are both, however, one design classes.
With a Laser you can be confident that your boat with its manufacturer supplied components is just as fast as the other boats in the fleet. Winning in Lasers comes down to the skill of the sailor.
In a Star, which is still a one design class but with looser design rules, you can use slightly different masts, sails, hulls, keels, etc. but you are theoretically still racing essentially the same boat as the other guys. There are just more options that can be used to optimize the boat even before you get to on-the-water adjustments.
 
I suggest you be humble about your results, and not go spouting off your placings.

There were only 2 radials at the District 10 champs. There was only one race in radials at the MAYRA Mid-Summer Regatta. Your results, while a good accomplishment for a junior sailor, are not good enough for you to use in support of your position that sailing a Laser is easy.

This is why I said you need to be humble about your racing. Most often when you go other places, people don't care how well you finished, because they've never seen your resume, and God help you, or me, if they have! All they care about is that you go the skills to pay the bills when the shit hits the fan.


Sailing a Laser is different from sailing a boat like a Star. They are both, however, one design classes.
With a Laser you can be confident that your boat with its manufacturer supplied components is just as fast as the other boats in the fleet. Winning in Lasers comes down to the skill of the sailor.
In a Star, which is still a one design class but with looser design rules, you can use slightly different masts, sails, hulls, keels, etc. but you are theoretically still racing essentially the same boat as the other guys. There are just more options that can be used to optimize the boat even before you get to on-the-water adjustments.

I concur. Often the Laser is used as a stepping stone to other boats, such as the Finn and the Star, and even the Americas Cup, because so much emphasis is placed on tactics, because the boats are so similar.
 
There were only 2 radials at the District 10 champs. There was only one race in radials at the MAYRA Mid-Summer Regatta. Your results, while a good accomplishment for a junior sailor, are not good enough for you to use in support of your position that sailing a Laser is easy.

Yikes. You should follow Ross' advice on this one.
 
In Sk8ing sailor's defence, he was pretty much answering my post when he put those results up . However, like others have pointed out, saying that sailing a Laser well is "easy" is just not true - there are more people you have to beat than in any other class (except perhaps the Opti) and lots them are skilled sailors who train very hard.

I admit I haven't sailed a Finn or Star (too short) or a Farr 40 (problems with amateur requirements) but I found sailing 52s with the world Farr 40 champ to be miles easier mentally and technically than sailing a Laser fast, and similar physically. That may not apply to all jobs, of course, but overall winning in Lasers requires a hell of a lot of skill and dedication. Why else are the top guys training so hard?

By the way, if you're Radial size what are you doing on a Star or Finn?
 

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