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Is it class legal to paint a Laser?

Migrec

New Member
Hi, I got a laser from 80 and it needs paint but I wanted to ask those who know about this first...
Is it class legal to paint the laser? it will be a "two component" color/varnish (no idea of what it's called in english)
I've also read somewhere that it is class legal as long as it doesn't make it "faster" but how am I supposed to know if it's a better paint? :confused:
 

LaLi

Well-Known Member
Class rule 11:
  1. Waxing, polishing and fine wet and dry sanding of the hull is permitted, provided the intention and effect is to polish the hull only. Polishing/sanding shall not be used to remove mould imperfections.
  2. Sanding and refinishing of the hull with the intention or effect to lighten the hull or improve the performance, finish, materials or shape beyond the original is not permitted.
Just sand and polish it. Forget the paint.

I see you posted the same question last summer, have you tried to do something to your boat between now and then?

I varje fall trevligt att se andra nordbor här ;)
 

Migrec

New Member
Nämen hej! trodde inte det fanns någon annan svensk här :)
However, I had thought of applying the paint on the existing one. Don't know if I really get that rule, I mean applying paint wouldnt change the structure of the hull nor make it "lighter" or "faster".
But about forgetting to paint it is really hard, it's so yellow and so ugly too :(
Thank you for your help anyway :)
 

laserxd

Member
painting over will actually add weight, so you're safe.

Have you though about spraying it with gelcoat? It might actually be cheaper than a two part paint, it will look like a brand new laser when you're done...
 

LaLi

Well-Known Member
If you haven't tried it yet, you might want to try sanding a small area and see how it turns out. Like a 20 x 20 cm patch between the bailer and the transom - if the result looks awful no one sees it.

I agree that the class rule is a bit open to interpretation, but I think the key words are "intention" and "improve... beyond the original". I would say that with a 35-year-old boat you're pretty safe.

Svensk är jag inte, men några finlandssvenska rötter har jag, och bor i en tvåspråkig stad :cool:
 

Migrec

New Member
Thank you for your answers... I'll try my way to get it good looking carefully :)

Aha okej, ursäkta mig. Men det var trevligt att träffas LaLi, jag har alltid haft för mig att finlandssvenskar är väldigt trevliga, dessutom har ni det häftigaste uttalet också :D
 

lb_laser

New Member
Few people race with 35 year old boats so the class rules likely do not apply. Do you plan to race it?
 

AlanD

Former ISAF Laser Measurer
Few people race with 35 year old boats so the class rules likely do not apply. Do you plan to race it?
Incorrect, the class rules apply equally whether it's an old boat or the latest boat off the production line.

Further, turn up with an old boat which has been done up, to a regatta and you're more likely to draw the measurer's attention. As a former measurer's the question I always thought to myself about an old boat at a major regatta is how have they cheated that the would want to use an old boat.

If all you are doing is sanding the gel coat to polish it, you probably do not need to go coarser than 1200 grit. If repainting the boat, it can't end up being lighter than when you started sanding the boat. If you try to fair in the venturi, around the mast base, centreboard case, transom lip or any where else, you are breaking the class rules. You can't apply any of the new coatings that improve water flow. The question you always need to ask is "why do I want to do something to a laser or any of it's equipment" if the answer is ever "to go faster" then the class rules say that is illegal, if it is "to improve it" it is likely to be illegal.
 

LaLi

Well-Known Member
lb_laser, can you read the title of this thread? Would he be asking if it didn't matter?
 

AlanD

Former ISAF Laser Measurer
Yes, because the owner of the boat might one day sell the boat to someone that does want to race it, only to latter have the boat rejected because it's illegal.
 

lb_laser

New Member
Few people race 35 year old plus Lasers compared to the large amount who race much newer ones. And, at many club level regattas, smaller infractions are unlikely to be policed.
 

lb_laser

New Member
It means that that it is far less likely for AlanD's point to happen.
Essentially, yes. Many of the rules do not regulate advantages over other boats. In fact, the boat in question would be at the disadvantage. Not really one design. On a side note, I would imagine that some of us break a rule every now and then, especially the class legal sails one. Back to the main point of this, wh
 

CaptainAhab

Active Member
My cycling coach in university said don't be concerned about the guy who shows up on $10k full carbon. Worry about the guy who lines up with a beat to shite Huffy.

I'm not sure if that is pertinent, but it makes one think about equipment. The same cycling coach once put food coloring in his water bottles(pre gatorade days) to psych out his opponents when riding professionally.

The bigger concern in my mind is whether those old beat to shite Laser's are breaking Rule 42. The hulls are so flexible and the decks are so spongy that they may be gaining some kinetic energy with all that motion...
 

AlanD

Former ISAF Laser Measurer
It means that that it is far less likely for AlanD's point to happen.
Essentially, yes. Many of the rules do not regulate advantages over other boats. In fact, the boat in question would be at the disadvantage. Not really one design. On a side note, I would imagine that some of us break a rule every now and then, especially the class legal sails one. Back to the main point of this, wh
It is very easy to update an old laser that will be 100% class legal with the latest gear and very competitive, without "fixing up" the hull. Sure many of the old hulls are soft which is fine on flattish water, but the scratches and dullness of the gel coat is superficial which has no impact on boat speed. Blackburn for all his Olympic campaigns raced and trained (including regattas) in Australia in a boat build in 1985, that was an old university boat that was extremely tired by the time he saw it, he would still convincingly win.

I actually enjoy racing my partners 38 year old boat more than my 7 year old boat. They are more of a challenge to sailing well, whilst they are equally fast but less forgiving if you make small mistakes, which is probably why quite a few of the top sailors in Australia actually train and race in old boats, despite having new boats in the shed, you need to bring your A game.
 

lb_laser

New Member
It is very easy to update an old laser that will be 100% class legal with the latest gear and very competitive, without "fixing up" the hull. Sure many of the old hulls are soft which is fine on flattish water, but the scratches and dullness of the gel coat is superficial which has no impact on boat speed. Blackburn for all his Olympic campaigns raced and trained (including regattas) in Australia in a boat build in 1985, that was an old university boat that was extremely tired by the time he saw it, he would still convincingly win.

I actually enjoy racing my partners 38 year old boat more than my 7 year old boat. They are more of a challenge to sailing well, whilst they are equally fast but less forgiving if you make small mistakes, which is probably why quite a few of the top sailors in Australia actually train and race in old boats, despite having new boats in the shed, you need to bring your A game.
And Olympic hopefuls are the new standard for equipment equality or lack thereof? I don't think the average 35 year old hull is as fast as the average 7 year old one. The older one is simply heavier, and, as you rightly say, more of a challenge to sail well, which means that the odds are that the newer one is more likely faster. And then, why do you see the majority of the Worlds events sailed on newer Lasers? Let's get back on topic.
 

AlanD

Former ISAF Laser Measurer
Old boats are not necessarily heavier. They are only heavier if water has been permitted to accumulate in/on the hulls and not properly dried out. The older boats in some cases are actually lighter than the current boats because whilst the weight limits of the boats have remained static, tolerances have been tightened.

Some hulls might be softer but again that depends on how the boat has been treated, but this is really only an issue if sailing is big waves where it becomes more difficult to maintain speed i.e. you can't afford to drop off a wave badly, newer boats are more forgiving. It doesn't actually decrease the optimum speed of the hull in any particular conditions, so in good hands a new boat is no faster. The reason why we are using the older boats is because we need to maintain focus on sailing the boats well and not going looking at sparkly objects.

The reason why the Laser World (other than masters and some other events such as the open radials) events are sailed on brand new Lasers is because there is an arrangement between the ILCA and the builders to supply new boats for each event.
 

CaptainAhab

Active Member
I was joking about Rule 42.

The reality of Laser sailing and sailing in general is its a boat speed game. Too much steering and not enough trimming leads to a slow sailor. As long as you have a reasonable sail that allows you to point with everyone else, the rest of the boat is pretty meaningless. Not trimming the mainsail for 5 minutes will cost you more boat speed than having a brand new hull will gain you.

Hull weight is in some ways meaningless as well unless you are at the ideal 83-85 kg(really fit). Having an extra kilo on you is the same as an extra kilo on the boat.

Likewise not keeping the boat flat when appropriate will cost you in more than a new boat will buy you.

Favourite Quote:

"And of course, it is sail trim that determines boat speed. Anytime you hear differently, wonder whether the speaker is gullible, naive, or trying to set you up. Smooth bottoms, weight, windage, etc. are of little significance-except to believers."
Stuart H. Walker(A Manual of Sail Trim) in the forward
 
Because ILCA wants to eliminate the advantage between other boats.
When most of the equipment is provided at the top championships, the competitors focus will be even more about their abilities to handle a Laser and general sailing, and less about the perfect Laser.
 

Migrec

New Member
Incorrect, the class rules apply equally whether it's an old boat or the latest boat off the production line.

Further, turn up with an old boat which has been done up, to a regatta and you're more likely to draw the measurer's attention. As a former measurer's the question I always thought to myself about an old boat at a major regatta is how have they cheated that the would want to use an old boat.

If all you are doing is sanding the gel coat to polish it, you probably do not need to go coarser than 1200 grit. If repainting the boat, it can't end up being lighter than when you started sanding the boat. If you try to fair in the venturi, around the mast base, centreboard case, transom lip or any where else, you are breaking the class rules. You can't apply any of the new coatings that improve water flow. The question you always need to ask is "why do I want to do something to a laser or any of it's equipment" if the answer is ever "to go faster" then the class rules say that is illegal, if it is "to improve it" it is likely to be illegal.
About the last thing you wrote, if the answer is "to make it look better" then? I'll likely apply the new paint on the old and little sanded one. And I don't own an old boat to cheat my way trough, I own it because I can't afford a Laser, got this one almost for free from my sailing club.
 

AlanD

Former ISAF Laser Measurer
I'm not saying anyone is necessarily cheating, but from a measurers perspective, you question everything. You are permitted to upgrade a boat to the current equipment and carry out repairs up to the original condition. You run into issues when you try to you go beyond returning something to the original condition, instead trying to make the boat equal to a current new boat. If it purely cosmetic, then it is legal, but if you end up with something better than when it was originally built, you've crossed the line.
 
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