Iraq?

G

Goonie

Guest
What do you guys believe should be done with Iraq? Me personally I do not believe it would be right to attack Iraq. If anyone is intrested I will tell you why not! What do you guys think?

Seth
 
ok first off your canadian, not american. lol. this is our mess thats been around for years. it has to be taken control of or with the touch of a button could blow up washington. as well as many other inosent lives. with our technology and experience it wouldn't be a long war or "conflict" as our despute 10 years ago was called. we'll kick his ass in a few weeks just like bin laden!!
 
I feel strongly that we should take out Iraq and Suddam! The reasons are much longer than I could type here.
 
"ok first off your canadian, not american. lol. this is our mess thats been around for years. it has to be taken control of or with the touch of a button could blow up washington. as well as many other inosent lives. with our technology and experience it wouldn't be a long war or "conflict" as our despute 10 years ago was called. we'll kick his ass in a few weeks just like bin laden!!"

First of all the invasion of countries under the mask of a "fight for the right" which is actually just a fight for oil is everyone's business. That's why organizations, let's say the UN, are made so that no one country can decide the future of another. Sure the UN has its downfalls but it works in principle.

Second of all how could Iraq attack American soil? Tony Blair said that by 2010 Iraq could have weapons to reach the edges of Europe. Yes with your "superior" technology you were able to bomb civilians in wars with so called smart bombs, and with your superior experience in stepping into other countries business to save your interests, oh whoops i forgot it's actually for the good of the people in the other country my mistake.

Yes I'm sure you will get Suddam just like you got bin Laden. Oh wait you haven't caught bin Laden yet. I seem to be forgetting a lot of things haven't I. Silly me.

And to Bradley what are all these good reasons? I'm sure there are alot of good reasons to invade Iraq. They are however not what the American governments says they are. And just to finish my spiel off, I am not an anti-american. I am just against Americans who think everything in the world is a a black and white situation.
 
I posted A VERY LONG REPLY, but it didn't get sent in. there go 30 mins of typing :(!!!!!!!!!
 
this is what i mean. why do people just have to be argumentative? what was the point of CDN sailor's post? it surely didn't help the mood and it only applies negative energy which is one thing that i think bradley could agree on that we dont here. THERE are reasons for attaching iraq and there are good ones too that the CIA wont tell us. so please lets state opinions and please try to be accepting to diff. points of view.
 
thanks mackenzie, I don't mind a nice debate though. Its nice not to talk about the forum for once and talk about issues....

Here is how I think of the situtation:
If WE do destroy the Iraqi government and leaders and he does have nuclear weapons, and we know he has chemical weapons, then we have saved many causalties of innocent civilians in the US and Britian.

If we are wrong and he doesn't then we have one dead god aweful dictator.

Also here is my other theory:
You say "how is he going to get them here"

Well how was little ole Afghanistan going to "get them here"?
They are even smaller than Iraq and didn't have much trouble with it.

A good discription of what we must do to protect our country is protect our:
Borders, Laugauge, culture

Also, don't believe everything you read in the paper or on TV. Check multiple sources. Also a great resource In my oppinion is Talk Radio. My favortite shows are Sean Hannity ( www.hannity.com), Neal Boortz ( www.wsbradio.com ), and Mike Savage.
 
This is good healthy debate mac. It is not negative. I will re type my post later.

SEth
 
o yeah seth, whenever i write a long post I copy it to the clip board just in case i Have more than 3 smillies in a row or something crazy like that that deletes my entire post...
 
to mac
what do you mean "what was the point of my post" the point was to start meaningful discussion so as not to have a post of. Let's get iraq. Yes i agree. that is the only way.
i was not trying to be negative. i was trying to open discussion on a very important topic.

part of debating is debating both sides so as to get all the facts.
i agree i was too sarcastic and i apologize.
 
Just a little plug for the forum:
If you did this on the mailing list you would likely get kicked off for discussing non-laser issues. The benefit of our forum is to create a Laser Community Forum with a group (hopefully large) of people that regularly check the forum and participate in the threads that interest them. I am working on some cool contest with REAL giveaways....Stay tuned.
 
Just to stirr up some controversy:

Bradley you say that the attack on iraq is a win/win situation.
But under that assumption shouldn't countries be invading the US? You said countries should fight for their borders language and culture. Wouldn't you say that the US is impressing their way of life on other countries?
Can you really call the US a democracy when 30-35% of the people vote and only 47% of the people who did voted wanted the government. Where only the rich get good healthcare?
I think not.

NOTE: I'm not trying to say that countries should actually be invading others. What i'm trying to do is to get people who I think, and this is just my opinion, have a very narrow minded education system, to start asking questions. If people jsut follow what the government says and not think about what is actually happening then it is no different than a dictatorship.
 
Ok When i say borders, language, culture, I am reffering to USA not any other countries. We must protect out borders from illegal aliens, perserve our language and our culture and not let it be poluted by others. This isn't a black vs. white thing this is a is the classic Western world vs. the Eastern world. This has been happening for thousands of years. The westerners change with the times while the easterners are still stuck back in time. We mustn't go back in time.

Second, the United States is not really a Democracy it is a Republic. Even the presidential ellection doesn't really count as the electoral guy for that state could cast the vote for the other candidate (not likely but possible). So really although many people call the United States a democracy we are not really a full democracy. We are more like a republic.
 
my appologies CDN sailor. i did not think we were starting a debate and i was still a bit anxious over the laser forum constitution. i was simply trying to say hey lets not get off on the wrong foot here. but now and on a sitiuation like this dabates are good.

Sudam must be killed is my opinion. he is doing nothing good for anyone and is just brainwashing inoccent lives. this world needs no more violence and he is only instigating previou problems.
 
Bradley: Must other countries protect themselves from those 3 things as well? Why is the US so special that it has different rights. Why do you think they are "behind the times"?

Mac: We are all brainwashed in some way Mac. We are all influenced by how we grow up. The only way to be truly not brainwashed is to live under a rock for a couple decades. In my opinion I think you have been brainwashed by America to think they are superior to others. You probably think I'm brainwashed. It's all perspective.

p.s. I think suddam has to go, not nessacarily die. But don't agree with the US actions and motives.
 
"“The status quo is not acceptable,” Bush said. “We have to make sure (Saddam’s ) 11 years of defiance” (of UN resolutions) do not go unanswered.”"

Bush doesn't use this hard line against Israel who has been defying UN resolutions on settlements in the occupied territories for a VERY LONG time!

Seth
 
Originally posted by CDN Sailor
"ok first off your canadian, not american. lol. this is our mess thats been around for years. it has to be taken control of or with the touch of a button could blow up washington. as well as many other inosent lives. with our technology and experience it wouldn't be a long war or "conflict" as our despute 10 years ago was called. we'll kick his ass in a few weeks just like bin laden!!"

First of all the invasion of countries under the mask of a "fight for the right" which is actually just a fight for oil is everyone's business. That's why organizations, let's say the UN, are made so that no one country can decide the future of another. Sure the UN has its downfalls but it works in principle.

Second of all how could Iraq attack American soil? Tony Blair said that by 2010 Iraq could have weapons to reach the edges of Europe. Yes with your "superior" technology you were able to bomb civilians in wars with so called smart bombs, and with your superior experience in stepping into other countries business to save your interests, oh whoops i forgot it's actually for the good of the people in the other country my mistake.

Yes I'm sure you will get Suddam just like you got bin Laden. Oh wait you haven't caught bin Laden yet. I seem to be forgetting a lot of things haven't I. Silly me.

And to Bradley what are all these good reasons? I'm sure there are alot of good reasons to invade Iraq. They are however not what the American governments says they are. And just to finish my spiel off, I am not an anti-american. I am just against Americans who think everything in the world is a a black and white situation.



Here's a little story of something that happened to me about a year ago that I like to enlighten people with. This is a true story that happend to me :(


WHERE WERE YOU ON SEPTEMBER 11........


I was walking across One Plaza when the first plane hit. At first it was like it was not really happening.....twilight zone. Once I heard the explosion I started running over to broadway because there was a group of people that had gathered and were looking up I figured that there was something to see. At first you could'nt see anything only smoke; the buildings are so tall and we were so close that all we could see was smoke. Everyone was saying at first that a helicopter had hit the biulding....its much different than listening to the news media seeing it live, you don't get any info.

I started up broadway to see if I could get a better view and thats when the cops really started pushing people to move uptown. As we started to move I heard a deep whistling sound and looked up just in time to see the 2nd tower just explode. The noise was paralyzing. At once people started to run frantically in a panic. I did'nt see the plane hit but I saw the explosion and the immediate aftermath. Once the initial plum of flame disipated debree started to rain; glass and metal fragments by the millions all over....everywhere. I tried to run but everytime I did I felt paralyzed by the sheer horror of what I was seeing. When I did manage to run you really don't make any distance, that's how big these building where.

I managed to get to Ruby's across from the WS parking garage....were I was to meet a client. The place was packed with people trying to escape the raining of debree and get off the street to stay away from the hords of emergency personel and people in shock. As I was in the restuarant they had a TV on CNN at the bar.....everyone in the place was quite just watching; every few minutes something would happen...an explosion or a fire truck would cruz by blowing hard and you would feel it outside and see it with a delay on the TV....seareal. Then the first tower went. The people that were at the windows saw it live first and reacted imediatly....then the rest of the people watching the TV.....everyone was in absolute and total shock some people even ran outside. We could only see from the mid section up because of the biulding in front of us. A friend of mine that works at the Guardian on Water St was on the 22 floor watching it when it happened, I was on the phone with him when it went. It was bizarre listening to the people scream over his cel phone while he heard the people scream on my side. The vibration and sound that it made was awesome....in a bad way. A paraclestic cloud washed over lower Manhat. heading uptown engulfing everything in its path in hot ash and debri. We watched people out side running past just being swallowed and then it past us.....all fell silent like fresh snow on a winters night. A few people ran into the retaurant and you could immediatly smell the dust on them and the utter panic in there horror stricken voices. It was something I've never even witnessed in a film or in history.

Then the second tower went and it all started over again. It took me 16 hours to get home and I only live 20 miles North of the city. I did'nt get my car out for two weeks. The Ferry ride over to Jersey City was like a ghost ride, it was the first time that anybody had seen a distance view, other than that of the TV. We all got a much closer view than we wanted.

Three people on my block at home died. Two of them NYC Fireman....and I knew them all; one was a good friend. I see his wife and two little girls everyday. I will never forget the horror of that day.....unfortunetly.

That's where I was on 9/11. :mad:


When Saddam drops a nuclear weapon in your back yard and kills your friends and family, and changes the way you think about your families safety then we'll talk. But until then I support the full protection of our counrty by any means nessessary. Regardless of the political "oil" implications. :eek:



k
 
It has not been proven that Iraq indeed has nuclear weapons. With the crude technology that they have it would take months to enrich enough uranium to make a working bomb.
Last time I checked Iraq was not involved in the terrorist attacks of September 11. The US has provided no hardcore evidence that they were. And how exactly is Iraq going to drop nuclear weapons in my or your backyard?
Instead of taking out governments that are widely supported in their respective countries due to personal opinion and bias, which in the end causes more hatred of the US, the United States of America should work on their foreign policy to reduce hatred in the countries, that do indeed hate the United States.
The only way a country can be truly safe is if all countries not on the US big ally list, which isn't so big with this issue, cease to exist. That would take out almost the entire world.
 
Originally posted by CDN Sailor
It has not been proven that Iraq indeed has nuclear weapons. With the crude technology that they have it would take months to enrich enough uranium to make a working bomb.
Last time I checked Iraq was not involved in the terrorist attacks of September 11. The US has provided no hardcore evidence that they were. And how exactly is Iraq going to drop nuclear weapons in my or your backyard?
Instead of taking out governments that are widely supported in their respective countries due to personal opinion and bias, which in the end causes more hatred of the US, the United States of America should work on their foreign policy to reduce hatred in the countries, that do indeed hate the United States.
The only way a country can be truly safe is if all countries not on the US big ally list, which isn't so big with this issue, cease to exist. That would take out almost the entire world.


Only a matter of months ago there was a significant case of what was then called a "dirty" bomb. A bomb with radio active material that can be constructed on site and has the ability to inflict significant damage / casualties. These are the type of threats that the US are concerned protecting against. Am I worried that Iraq is going to "drop" a bomb in the literal sense.....no, but nobody ever expected two aircraft to be hijacked and flown into the WTC either. It is true that there is no direct concrete evidence supporting the claim that Iraq had anything to do with 911....and I am not making the claim that they are either. However it is widely recognized, and founded by American as well as British secret services that certain factions within the Iraqi government have supported terrorist, terrorism and anti-American sentiment for years. The American government has, for many years, been reactive to such bold threats and only since 911 have they decided to be proactive hence the push against Iraq and it's "policies". We (USA) had the opportunity to "replace" the Iraqi government years ago for obvious complicit behavior and did not instead allowing the United Nations to perform their diplomatic duty; which the Iraqi government has scoffed at time and time again. Our own government has tried for years, via diplomatic means, to deal with the "Saddam Regime" and has failed ....over and over to "reduce the hatred".

The ideals and freedoms that the United States and Canada enjoy is what people envy. The government policies that countries like Iraq enforce, with a vengeance, on its own people through scare tactics and violence all the wile pointing the suppressive finger at the US reek of fascism and dictatorship. The regulation of such obvious unstable "dictatorships" is the only way to ensure that innocent people do not die; most of all the Iraqi people that do not support Saddam but cower in fear and oppression. I believe that empathy is a lost feeling, unless you have ever experienced what we (US) are going through you really have no idea what it's like. Only when 911 occurred did the US really understand what Israel has been going through for so long.

As for the support of other countries; public opinion is not high and this is understandable.....most threatened military action is not supported. How long do we wait for the diplomatic process to work. Our (Canada & US) sanctions against oppressive countries inflict pain and suffering on the people of these countries and without a flinch from their respective governments......as long as they can sit in their castles and get fat they could care less that their people starve. This is obviously not the answer; to threaten the root of this evil with military force is the only way. To garner support from "protected" countries means nothing, only action from a scorn leader will win against evil in the end.
 
Thankyou kwilson for responding with an accurate response. In fact I agree with 80% of your points. What I was trying to do was to get people to think why it should be done and not just follow what other people say should happen.
In my opinion having an opinion based on someone elses is a very dangerous thing to have around. It is obvious that you (kwilson) have thought about the issue and have come to a sane and rational response.

Now to stop this pro US/ anti US topic
what do you all think about the UN's acceptance of the new resolution about Iraq. What do you think the US and the World should do now. Obviously we should wait the 1 month period in which Iraq has to disarm, but what after?
 
Ken, thats an amazing story. You are in the same situation as the class president, Ryan, who was working in downtown NYC when it happened. I tend to agree with Ken. We must protect ourselves so that we don't have another Sept. 11.
 
Originally posted by CDN Sailor
Thankyou kwilson for responding with an accurate response. In fact I agree with 80% of your points. What I was trying to do was to get people to think why it should be done and not just follow what other people say should happen.
In my opinion having an opinion based on someone elses is a very dangerous thing to have around. It is obvious that you (kwilson) have thought about the issue and have come to a sane and rational response.

Now to stop this pro US/ anti US topic
what do you all think about the UN's acceptance of the new resolution about Iraq. What do you think the US and the World should do now. Obviously we should wait the 1 month period in which Iraq has to disarm, but what after?


Thank You. I think that the ball is in Saddam's court. If he fully complies with the UN I think that the US may let him go. But for how long...?? He (Saddam) is so irrational that its only a matter of time before it all starts up again.....or worse he attacks and people die. He was just "elected", unanomously, by his people to continue his terrany. I wonder what happened to the people that voted for the other guy.....was there even an another guy?

I only hope that the terrorist of this world are watching and see that the US is taking it seriously this time. I don't think we are going to lay down this time.

More later.....I'm going home.
 
Bradley I disagree. I think that you must go into Iraq for the good of mankind. Saying to go in to protect ourselves is selfish. You should be going in to stop the injustice that is occuring in the country, and protect EVERYONE from the possible threat.
 
Originally posted by CDN Sailor
Bradley I disagree. I think that you must go into Iraq for the good of mankind. Saying to go in to protect ourselves is selfish. You should be going in to stop the injustice that is occuring in the country, and protect EVERYONE from the possible threat.

This is also true, and yet another reason we should go into Iraq. I by no means disagree in anyway with an attack on iraq.
 
On the ballot where Saddam was the only candidate it was a YES or NO option.
However if I were taking that vote I would put yes whether or not I agreed.

PS: I do have some knowledge of the pain that you are all going through. My sister lives in NYC and was in NYC on September 11th and for a few hours I did not know where she was. So don't just think I'm some person without feelings or emotions speculating on things he knows nothing about.
 
Why was it moved out of Juniors? I had it there for a reason. I wanted to see what other young people had to say, and see if they just 'spat' out what they heard on tv!
 
"Only a matter of months ago there was a significant case of what was then called a "dirty" bomb."
The bomb wasn't in Iraq. They found all the plans in Afghanistan!

"It is true that there is no direct concrete evidence supporting the claim that Iraq had anything to do with 911....and I am not making the claim that they are either. However it is widely recognized, and founded by American as well as British secret services that certain factions within the Iraqi government have supported terrorist, terrorism and anti-American sentiment for years."

Terrorist in Al-queda would have nothing to do with the Iraqi regime for one reason and one reason only! Saddam doesn't follow Islam the way they do. He is not religous! Now, for a minute, think about all the people the United States has killed in Iraq. All the neighboors, children, mothers, fathers. With the sanctions imposed, Iraqis couldn't even get basic medicine to keep them alive. All the bombings done by the US. To the Iraqi people, Saddam is an angel compared to the US.

"The American government has, for many years, been reactive to such bold threats and only since 911 have they decided to be proactive hence the push against Iraq and it's "policies". We (USA) had the opportunity to "replace" the Iraqi government years ago for obvious complicit behavior and did not instead allowing the United Nations to perform their diplomatic duty; which the Iraqi government has scoffed at time and time again. "

Would the US allow Iraq and the UN to search american military secrets? Remember the time the US was friends with Saddam. The US has a HORRIBLE reputation of putting dictators in place and supporting them, then dropping them, and finding ways to 'get' them. Would you like any examples? Why doesn't the US go invade Israel for ignoring MANY UN resolutions on settlements in the occupied territories?


"Our own government has tried for years, via diplomatic means, to deal with the "Saddam Regime" and has failed ....over and over to "reduce the hatred"."

I have told you why Iraqis hate you, now I will tell you why people like Osama hate you. YOU ARE IN SAUDIA ARABIA! One of the most scraced place in the Islam religion.

"The ideals and freedoms that the United States and Canada enjoy is what people envy. The government policies that countries like Iraq enforce, with a vengeance, on its own people through scare tactics and violence all the wile pointing the suppressive finger at the US reek of fascism and dictatorship. The regulation of such obvious unstable "dictatorships" is the only way to ensure that innocent people do not die; most of all the Iraqi people that do not support Saddam but cower in fear and oppression. I believe that empathy is a lost feeling, unless you have ever experienced what we (US) are going through you really have no idea what it's like. Only when 911 occurred did the US really understand what Israel has been going through for so long. "

You are right, they are not free. But as we have learned in the past, Western countries CANNOT get involved in the process of the people FREEING themselves in the middle east. They will get to democracy in their own way and time and the US should not interven in the middle east whatsoever. Not in Saudia Arabia even.


Seth
 
More than 100'000 European citizien protested today in Italy against the plans of Goerge W. Bush. I just want to say that there are many people out there who don't like at all what Bush is doing. And not all of those people live in countries like Iraq or Afghanistan.
The "axis of evil" seems to get bigger and bigger. Bush might have to include most European countries to the "axis of evil" pretty soon. So you might have to think about what the risks of attacking Iraq are. Even if you kill Saddam, do you really believe that it will change a lot? The hate against America in Iraq is big. And you can't destroy hate with a few cruise missiles or some tanks. The hate will stay in the people. Unless you're planning to eliminate all people who live in the Balkan area, your war against Iraq wouldn't help a bit to reach peace and freedom. And I don't think (and hope) that you're going to kill everyone down there. But you might get your oil, and sometimes it seems that's all what's important to your president in the white house...

Bradley: You were talking about protecting your language, why don't you start protecting your language by learning how to spell... My English isn't perfect at all but it's not my first language.

So, you might say that I'm just a young Swiss guy who hasn't got an idea about what's going on in America and in the world. But remember, the USA might be big and powerfull, they are the only real superpower in the world at the moment, but as such you also have to act responsibly and you can't just do whatever you want. Otherwise there'll be another September 11th for sure...
 
ok, time to post the papere i wrote

Reasons to Bomb Iraq

Although Iraq may not appear to be in any way dangerous to some people, in reality, it is perhaps one of the most dangerous nations in the world. Iraq has said, and UN weapons inspectors have shown that Iraq does indeed posses both Chemical weapons, and is on their way to making a nuclear device of some kind. If Iraq gets their hands on a nuclear weapon, there are many different options open to them. The first, and most obvious, is to use it against a nation. The only problem with this is, there really isn’t a nation around Iraq that it could use a nuclear weapon on. The only target is Israel. But, however, if Iraq were to use a nuclear weapon against Israel, two things most likely would happen. First of all, Iraq would be immediately in danger for the use of a nuclear weapon. Secondly, Iraq would quickly be invaded in retaliation by Israel, and Israel would just as quickly be supported by the United States and the rest of Israel’s allies. Israel may even use one of their nuclear weapons against Iraq. Clearly, this is not a real use for the bomb if Saddam Hussein were to get one. Another choice is to hold it against the possibility of an invasion. This too, however, is not likely because the United States has stated that if Iraq uses a nuclear weapon against ground forces, the United States will retaliate with nukes too. The only option left open for Iraq is to use the bomb as blackmail against other nations, getting what they want out of its serious threat. The most terrible possibilities of Iraq having a bomb is that they give the weapon, or the information how to make a weapon of mass destruction to terrorists. This would be catastrophic to the world. Clearly, Saddam Hussein and Iraq cannot be trusted with a bomb.
Despite all of the possibilities, people are still saying that they need proof that Iraq has nuclear weapons. I say, “WHY?!” We know that Hussein wants nuclear weapons, we know that he has an advanced nuclear program, we know that he is crazy enough to want to use it on invading forces, so why not get rid of that possibility? Some people also say that, “Why should we care? There is no real likelihood that Saddam can reach us.” My response is, “Why are you so self-centered?” This is not a matter that concerns just the United States, it affects possibly the whole world if Iraq teaches terrorists to build nukes. Invasion, people say is not the right answer.
The people who are anti-invasion have many reasons they believe are correct. One of these reasons is that they believe that many civilians will die. In response to this, look at the Afghanistan campaign. Less than 1,000 civilians died, and those are heavily weighted in favor of higher numbers. In reality, the only civilian causalities that are likely to occur will be when Iraq places civilians around their military bases so that the United States does not bomb them. This is a despicable act, on par with what Saddam Hussein has done to his people as well. Hussein has gassed to death thousands of his own people, the Kurds most notably, and has oppressed the Turkomans and other sects of Iraq. This alone is a major breach of crimes against Humanity, and Hussein should be arrested and brought before a international court hearing, just like Slobadon Milosavich (Spelling?) was. Now, because the United States does not wish to have any civilian casualties, they will double and triple check the targets that they bomb.
There are those people who believe that the UN weapons inspectors should be allowed back into Iraq to continue weapons inspections to another chance to Iraq. There is, however, one problem with this to me. Iraq has been given several chances. They signed the treaty with the UN saying that they would stop their nuclear weapons program, and would begin to dismantle their weapons that they already had. Iraq tapped the rooms that the inspectors stayed in so that they could hear where they were going next, and move all illegal substances and such away before the inspectors arrived. Also, 11 Presidential Palaces were declared a no-inspection zone, which includes over 12 square miles, where practically anything can be stored without anyone knowing about its existence besides the Iraqi government. Because of this, the weapons inspecting was not as effective as the UN had intended. Iraq kicked out the weapons inspectors in 1998, which was a breach of the treaty they signed, and so they have now gone approximately 3 years and 11 months without any form of inspection of their arms. The United States has no idea what Iraq may posses as far as weapons of mass destruction.
Because of all the evil things that Iraq has done, there is no choice but invasion. I would hate to invade, but there is no other option available. If the United States agrees to allow UN inspectors into Iraq, they are sending a message that the United States can be stopped, and this would cause many other nations to “rebel” against the United States. Therefore, the United States must send a message to Iraq and to the rest of the world that they will not be crossed.
 
iraq

all i have to say is that americans are war junkies and george w. bush is lacking in the brains department
 

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