Class Politics Intensity Sails

Who was this man and where do I meet him


I can personally attest that three regattas in 20+ blew out an almost-new sail.

I think Intensity or someone else should develop and sell a practice sail made of modern laminates, then that way we don't have to rely on bureaucracy to move- the design will be there. All we have to do is bitch and complain to the class that this sail is so much better, all you have to do is appove it. Approving a sail takes a lot less bureaucracy than designing a new one.
Then of course, can modern laminates last but still be as stretchy, adjustable, and reactive enough for the laser? That was one reason I've seen as to the decision for lighter cloth.
 
Yes, it's possible to build a modern sail, using modern materials that works on a bendy, unstayed rig -Finns are a fine example. It's been done for a Laser as well (
attachment.php

)- the issue isn't and never has been "can it be done", it's always "does the class want to change"
Some members do, some don't


Read this thread from a few years ago and see how people fall into the "change it" and "leave it alone" camps....
http://www.laserforum.org/showthread.php?t=3007

Same thing is happening with carbon spars.... and happens with many proposed changes
 
Who was this man and where do I meet him

His name's Phil, from NSW Australia. These days you may be able to meet him in Tasars, where he occasionally sails and can still beat world champs using old gear, and where he still tries to tell those he's coaching to stop worrying about the gear and look at their sailing and adjusting to the conditions and gear; ie - your draft has blown aft? Cool, just more cunningham, then maybe less sheet to firm up the leach, and move to a groove that's a degree or so lower.

Is it perfect? No - but how many of us are so good that we are extracting the best from our gear?


I can personally attest that three regattas in 20+ blew out an almost-new sail.

But what was "blown out"? Did, for example, the leach stretch? It's not ideal if it did, but in the whole spectrum of the average sailor's average Laser regatta, how much of the difference between them and the winners can be traced to 1/2" or so of leach stretch? Is the amount of twist and draft we can achieve in the new sail always the correct amount, when we consider factors like chop, breeze strength, wind sheer, crew weight, and tactical positioning? How often, when we look at all those factors, is the difference in leach tension between a new sail and an old sail vital? How many sailors know exactly what amount of twist and leach tension is required at all times? What about the psychology of the situation? If we think we're slow, we'll go slow.

I'm getting back into serious Lasering for the Masters Worlds, so hopefully I'll have a chance to get some opinions from the top Open guys.
 
I'm not against new materials and I agree the sails are overpriced, but isn't it going overboard to say that sails only last one regatta?

I think I already put this further up the thread, but it may bear repeating. Some time ago, one guy I know owned just one new sail in his entire Laser career. His other sail was an old borrowed rag.

He ended up champ of what it arguably the world's toughest district (that year's world champ was about 7th in the districts); national Youth champ; won selection to the Worlds, and finished top 25 in the Open Worlds. He sailed in windy places.

You can also be 100% competitive in masters racing with the recent and current world champs, with a sail that's been used (and flogged) for a year or so. That's a matter of fact.

If you can get into the world's top 25 and only ever own ONE sail in your entire career, then how much of a problem is the sail for the average sailor?


Ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha wheeeeeze ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha !!!

That has to be one of your best posts ever!

I bet the guy used one of those 25 year old super competitive Lasers under that sail!

Did he drive an old 1967 Volkswagon van and use the same mainsheet.
I bet the guy wore the same condom during the conception of all six of his children too!!
And used the same ticket to get the entire family into the World Cup soccer matches.

Yes, he used the same exact number two pencil on all his standardized tests and his original Commodore 64 computer is serving him well while he cruises the internet.

Let's not even THINK about his toothbrush, Band Aid, socks, underwear, and that first roll of toilet paper.

Thanks for the tongue in cheek post about how Laser sails last and last and last.

Wait a minute, that would be where your 25 year old hull and 25 year old sail would always finish.

I get it!!

great!!

Ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha wheeeeeze ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha !!!
 
It's a fact, Gouver. The guy is my brother so I know very well the gear he used, and I have confirmed it with him.

I don't want to out myself, but since you are implying I was lying and finish last, I'll have to give you some more facts. The last time my 25 year old boat did a title was in a 52 boat fleet in our 2005 Masters districts. The placings were;

1st- Kristen Kosmala, 2000 Olympic team, preparing for 2004 campaign; (placing 2,5,1,8)
3rd - Dave Early, 2004 World Champ, 4th 2005 and 2006 (places 29,2,11,1)
6th- Me on Laser 52225, built 1976 or 77 - (placing 10, 7, 10, 2)
7th- Adam French, 3 time World champ, 2nd in 2005 (placing 1,11,14,10)
14th- Peter Heywood, 2005 World GM Champ (11,14,13,15 - was 1st or 2nd in R4 'till he got the course wrong).

See http://www.laser.asn.au/Results/2005_06/state_masters/05_RadialMastersCombinedResults.pdf

Sure, it wasn't a great result - I've been sailing other classes and haven't done much Laser racing for years. I was making some basic errors and out of practise, so it's obvious that the old boat was competitive in a fleet that included 3 world champs and 1 Olympian. Conclusion - you are wrong.

For comparison, with a brand-new boat in the first year I did Lasers, see;

http://www.laser.asn.au/Results/99StateR.htm

Second overall and MAsters was the three-time World Masters champ. Third overall had been 4th in the Open Worlds, went on to get 2nd in the Continentals. Ninth overall (third Master) was third in that year's Masters worlds; I couldn't go as I had the injury that put me out of LAsers until 2005.

These aren't brilliant results, but they are okay. They certainly prove that I am not a liar, and that an old boat can do okay.

It's funny that on SA, you always abuse other people for criticising people you know, yet you are so ready with the insults yourself.
 
I tried to remove some of that stuff because I didn't want to big note myself, but the time to edit has expired. I hope the reasonable readers understand that I am merely trying to prove that I'm not a liar as Gouvernail claims.
 
HECS...I actually thought you were being a troll. I was being nice and calling it a joke.


No reasonable informed person actually believes an old flexible beat up Laser with a ratted out sail is as fast as a new stiff Laser with a nice new well shaped sail.

For some insane reason, known only to you, you keep publishing non sense implying the laws of physics have ceased to apply.

Yes, in flat water with light wind, the old well used hull may be competitive.
Yes, an old Laser that has not been sailed much is as stiff or even stiffer than a new boat recently made from fresh still curing resin.
Yes, a sail that has little use and is old can be just as fast as a new sail.

Sorry , an old well used sail does not point well and cannot hold a lane in a fleet of well sailed new sails.
Old sails have blown out leeches and do not work as well as new sails. That is fact. It is based upon science and proven by performance. I have no earthy idea why you wish to deny the reality of physics.

If you somehow managed to perform well with old tired equipment, good on you.
I won two races last night with a five year old sail that has raced in at least two hundred races. It may have raced in as many as four hundred races as I am not certain when I began using it for Wednesday nights and we sail about a hundred races a year. Before I retired it from regatta use it had sailed at least ten regattas.
THE SAIL SUCKS!!! It is slow. It does not point. Yes, I can win a race if I am the only guy who hits all the shifts. That does not make the sail good. IT SUCKS!!!
If I had put up my brand new one regatta old sail last night, I may have won all five races. On the other hand everybody else was sailing with his "Wednesday rag" so my victories would have been totally meaningless and worthy of no satisfaction.

Back to your performance on the race course with your ragged out garbage: If you had been using nice new equipment, you may have finished each race in a lot shorter period of time.
Unless the old boat you were using has been modified, or the old sail you were using has been re cut there is absolutely no way your old equipment was faster than new equipment. However you moved upon any leg of the course and whatever speed you moved on any leg of the course, you would have moved as fast or faster with new equipment.

I have been making jokes and even downright abusive remarks about your absurd attemts to deny the physical realities of stiffness, sailshape and their relationship to boat speed because you are absolutely and totally wrong and your constant attempt to describe something different about old Lasers and old sails is nothing more than nonsense.
Also, because you are very good with words,( that really is a deliberate and heartfelt compliment to your communication skills) I am concerned you may be misleading others.
As a general rule, a person who sails a ten year old boat with a three year old sail and who has been finishing 10th in a 20 boat fleet with that equipment, will immediately move to the top five with brand new equipment. I have seen that happen for thirty years and I have done it myself when sailing with brand new replacement equipment after my old equipment has become horribly flexible and blown out.

Sailors who just cannot keep up but usually perform well in other types of boat should be aware the problem MAY be largely caused by crappy equipment.

Your non sense, if read by those sailors may lead them to believe they are simply hopeless bumpkins who can never compete.
"HECS says the crappy boat and blown out sail are not the problem. I must suck at Laser sailing."

The problem is HECS is publishing misleading non sense.

Old beat up flexible Lasers with ragged out sails are slower than new Lasers with new sails.

Please!! Please!! Pretty please with sugar on it!!! Stop spewing crap that claims otherwise!!!

PS None of this is meant to be personal. I bet you are a hoot on the race course and on land as well. Someday I look foreword to meeting you.

I also hope each of us is wealthy enough to be able to bring a brand new perfectly equipped toy....

If for no other reason than I like shiny trinkets.
 
My own personal experience with "hi-tech" sail materials (Kevlar, mylar, etc.) on larger boats is that they tend to keep their shape better but when the go they just fall apart (wear, rips, etc.). I've not really experienced them stretching out of shape but they do seem to suffer from wear holes, etc. badly.

However, this experience is limited to larger boats. Again personal experience but a dacron sail tends to last longer but gradually get worse and worse shape wise. You think about changing, look and the prices and sticking with a bad shape old sail seems like a good plan. Hi-tech materials seem to give you less choice as, despite having good shape they are falling apart and patching up is impractical.

If the hi-tech keeping their shape better is the nature of the materials rather than the way I used to use them then they could provide quite a benefit to the ethic of the Laser class in the somebody with an older sail would still have pretty much the same shaped sail as somebody with a new sail.

Certainly on larger boats I still needed new genoa and main every year (plus others) so I would not say they lasted longer, just held shape better through their life.

But above is my personal experience and is thus limited.

Another aspect is that, if part of the higher costs of Laser sails is due to the low production levels of the sail cloth, maybe switching to a standard material (readily available and manufactured in quantity) might result in an improvement in quality/reduction in price without impacting the profit margins in the supply chain.

Although I am very strongly in favour of keeping the Laser as true strict one-design and I'm not complaining about sail costs and appreciate the supply chain needs to make a living, I would probably support the class starting to evaluate hi-tech sails (not to get a better faster sail)

Ian
 
Gouver;

I agree that a new sail and new boat are faster in most or all conditions. However, for most of us, by far the biggest limit to our performance is ourselves. Yes, an old sail sometimes doesn't hold its lane well, because of its loose leach - but Joe Average on a brand-new boat also sometimes doesn't hold his lane well, because his technique is less than perfect. Why, then, blame the sail rather than technique?

My problem with those two 10ths in the regatta above was not the old sail - it was the fact that I was pinching by a tiny margin. As soon as I stopped that, I went from 10th to 1st - why blame the gear when I was the idiot most responsible? I then dropped to 2nd by missing a shift going upwind in 15 knots + ; again it was MY fault I missed the shift Dave Early picked, why blame the gear for MY mistake?

The speed difference between an old boat and a new boat is probably in the region of 1% or so, yet (allowing for dirty air etc) the difference between the front of the fleet and the pack is about 5% or more even when both are on equal boats. Again, why worry about the 1% that's the boat rather than the 4% that's the sailor?

What I am trying to get across is that we should not be blaming the age of our tools first and foremost, but looking at what we do with them. And if we don't worry about putting resources into buying a new sail each regatta, we can put those resources into working on our technique.

My brother was a student when he did the worlds. Each new sail would have taken him a couple of week's wages, post tax. Instead, he spent those two weeks out on the water, training hard. It worked, and going out and spending 40 hours roll-tacking and starting was more fun than doing 40 hours behind a Macdonalds counter. New sails would have worn out - the skills he earned instead have not.

I am trying to be positive, and I think my message is positive. It says that you don't have to spend a lot of money (well, enough money to make people complain) buying new sails every couple of regattas. It says that you can improve your Laser sailing by doing something fun (training and sailing) rather than spending more time in the office to buy sails. It says that anyone who can afford a $1000 boat can be competitive to a reasonable level, rather than those who can afford a $7000 boat and $3000 each year in sails.

Sure, I'm taking a newer boat into the Masters Worlds; but I believe that it is a positive message to say that the way to improve is to look at your sailing first, your gear second, and to say that most Lasers and most sails are good enough for us most of the time.

I'm not denying physics - I am saying that the loss in lift/drag etc efficiency caused by an old sail is very little compared to the loss in efficiency created by the excess heel, bad wave weaving, incorrect kinetics, lack of hiking etc that all but the very best suffer from.
 
Summary of above??

I believe we have each made every effort to communcate our respective postions and for the most part, neither is denying what the other has written to be abundantly true.


About cloth and sails and etc?? 90% or more of the price we pay for Laser sails has zero to do with the cost of materials.

Just for grins here is how I believe a $500 list price breaks down. ( Change the numbers equally while maintaining percentages for different list prices. )

Cloth: $25
Thread, grommets, webbing, window: $5
Labor to cut and sew: $30
Shop overhead: $30 ( machines, the room, electricity, water, insurance etc)
management : $25
Shipping to builders: $2
Royalty tags: $25
now the builder has it for : $150 and that's a high guess.

Builder profit and advertising and management and all that jazz add $150

So its $300 as shipped to the dealer

Dealer shipping and financing and buulding costs and labor and profit mark up add 40% ..$200

$500.

The materials in the cloth?? Who cares??
 
About cloth and sails and etc?? 90% or more of the price we pay for Laser sails has zero to do with the cost of materials... The materials in the cloth?? Who cares??

agreed. therefore let's experiment with today's materials and come up with a sail that lasts!
 
I kinda like the idea that the old stuff is faster cause I have #1488 and the original sail with a red crown on it.

But sadly its very slow compared even to my 25 year old boat.
 
agreed. therefore let's experiment with today's materials and come up with a sail that lasts!


Noting is stopping anyone from coming up with a wonderful Laser sail and marketing that sail.
There is a copy right owner who will not allow anyone else to use the Laser name with respect to sailboats.

If you want to develop and market a better sail, go for it.

If the class association decides your design is better for teh game of Laser racing than the sail supplied by the builders, the class association can decide to allow its use in Laser regatas.
If the builders decide it would be more profitable in the long term to supply boats with sails designed and sold by you, they will purchase sails from you and supply those sails with the new boats.

Make certain you not only take the time to design your sail but also make certain you copy right the coincept behind the sail for the Laser which is like yours and not like the ones currently defined and supplied by the builders and class.

I wonder if a person could copy right "all the designs other than" the legal laser sail design???
 
OK. I'll try to keep this simple.

"Laser" is a trademark owned by Vanguard. You pretty much can't market anything for use with our little 14-foot boats and call it a "Laser" anything. You can market it as a "practice sail for a Laser sailboat" or something to that effect, just as you could sell a "foil bag for Laser foils," but not a "Laser foil bag."

The design of the sail is not patented as far as I know, and even if it was, the patent would probably have expired since it would have been filed in the 1970s.

I have heard rumors that the design of the Laser hull is copyrighted. This is possible, but it would be a weak copyright because it would only cover the non-functional aesthetic design of the boat, i.e. the exact "look" of the hull, not the idea of a 14-foot fiberglass boat with an unstayed mast.

I don't think the sail design is copyrighted. Even if it were copyrighted, like the hull, the only thing that could be covered would be the "look" of the sail which is arguable completely functional and not copyrightable.

If someone designs a new sail that is more than just a duplicate sail (e.g. the Rooster 8.1, or a mylar sail), then their sail would also probably not be copyrightable.

This is not to say that Gouvernail is not correct when he says:
If the class association decides your design is better for teh game of Laser racing than the sail supplied by the builders, the class association can decide to allow its use in Laser regatas.
If the builders decide it would be more profitable in the long term to supply boats with sails designed and sold by you, they will purchase sails from you and supply those sails with the new boats.
There's just not a good way of protecting that new design other than an extension of the existing contractual sailmaking monopoly to the new designer.
 
Hello -

Been following this thread with interest for a while now and I wade into it with some trepidation of the beating which is sure to follow. Respectfully Gouvernail, I have to agree with HECS.

Is not a different outcome than the one you suggest one of "Well, why bother joining the fleet if I need to spend a fortune on sails?" - rather than "I must suck"?

I am still using the same sail and it seems ok to me. I am 100% sure that my placings have sweet @#$* all to do with my boat or my equipment, however tempting it is to think otherwise. It is all about me - and on the rare occasion that I do well, it is all about me and I can think about what I did right - was I more focused, did I hike harder....

For my part, I would rather people spend less time informing others about the necessity of a new sail every regatta in order to be competitive - I suspect it has more to do with shape consistency than an actual new sail - this is simply not true.

regards,

Matt
 
I have heard rumors that the design of the Laser hull is copyrighted. This is possible, but it would be a weak copyright because it would only cover the non-functional aesthetic design of the boat, i.e. the exact "look" of the hull, not the idea of a 14-foot fiberglass boat with an unstayed mast.

I don't think the sail design is copyrighted.

We've had this discussion about patents and copyrights before on this forum. To repeat what I said back in December...

If you go to the US Copyright Office - Records site at http://www.copyright.gov/records/ and search for copyrights held by Bruce Kirby you will see that copyright VA-298-296 was registered by Bruce in 1988 for the technical drawing of the Laser that appears on page 6 of The New Laser Sailing by Dick Tillman.
 
In anything but the most strictly controlled, perfect sailing conditions (which rarely exist) with boats sailed by two identical sailors (which doesn't happen) the idea of comparing old to new sails in a racing environment is flawed.

Most races I've seen are a competition to see who can make the least mistakes. The man with the new sail who capsizes will never recover his 5% lead from the man with a ten year old sail that just passed him or the man that picked the wind better.

Somewhere between HECS organic description and Governail's scientific description is where the truth lies. The laws of physics apply, but badly applied physics will give a bad result.
 
If you go to the US Copyright Office - Records site at http://www.copyright.gov/records/ and search for copyrights held by Bruce Kirby you will see that copyright VA-298-296 was registered by Bruce in 1988 for the technical drawing of the Laser that appears on page 6 of The New Laser Sailing by Dick Tillman.

That is only a copyright on the drawing itself. It prevents anyone from copying the drawing, not the boat shown in the drawing. Interestingly, the US Copyright Office does allow registration of vessel hull designs (since 1998), but such a design registration is separate from copyright protection. The Laser hull design does not appear to be a registered design...all the designs are here.
There does appear to be a copyright registered to Bruce Kirby on a boat design, but that would only cover the non-functional aspects of the design.

Anyway, the sail doesn't seem to be covered by a copyright or a patent. It is only protected because of the license agreements between the sailmakers and the builder/class association/dealers. Although it is unlikely, if a better sail was produced (like the clew strap, the vang, etc.), it could be chosen by the builder/class association/dealers as the class legal sail. It would not, however, make your boat go faster than anyone else with the new sail. It might however, last longer, but would probably not be cheaper.
 
It might however, last longer, but would probably not be cheaper.

Same same... we wouldn't mind paying the price if it lasted longer, wouldn't mind them crapping out so quickly if they were cheaper.

I assume that everyone here knows that laser sails are 2 dimensional, that there is no panel shape, that instead, the airfoil shape is forced into the sail by the curved luff pocket being fed onto a straight mast section.

This makes it the easiest possible sail to manufacture. You could duplicate the existing sail in high tech sailcloth with your eyes closed and end up with something that would hold a competitive shape 10x as long.

If such a sail existed why wouldn't the class vote it in? it certainly helps people who are trying to get into/stay in the sport on a budget if they can buy a sail that keeps them on pace with the winners race after race...

Or maybe the class leaders like the fact that they can buy an advantage over the underfunded kid with the blown out sail... :D
 
The entire sail thing is money driven.

Those selling the current sails make lots of money and believe they have no incentive to change their business.

It would cost someone a lot of money to develop and market an alternative.

So..Nobody has done it.

If you believe you can make a god durable inexpensive sail that would serve Laser sailors well.

BUILD A FEW HUNDRED!!!

Invest every penny yopu have and work your ass off to make the new sail succeed.

You may make a few hundred thousand.

Or you may lose your entire fortune.
 
If you believe you can make a god durable inexpensive sail that would serve Laser sailors well.

BUILD A FEW HUNDRED!!!

Invest every penny yopu have and work your ass off to make the new sail succeed.

You may make a few hundred thousand.

Or you may lose your entire fortune.

Isn't this where we came in? Aren't Intensity Sails making a "good durable inexpensive sail"?

I have no idea how many they are selling? But is there any chance of them becoming legal for Laser class sanctioned regattas? I think not.
 
I was under the impression that intensity sails are only selling because they are much cheaper and exactly the same, not better. Perhaps a mylar leech, as in the rooster sail, would work better. Remember though, the whole reason the sail is made of light, stretchy cloth is because the sail has to be able to handle a rather astonishing amount of adjustability. Can a mylar sail handle a mast that regularly flexes one to two feet (or more)out of column and a cunningham adjustment that when pulled tight actually stretches the sail several inches and doesn't just take up slack?
Show me this sail, and I will forego college to build it for you.
 
---snip--- Remember though, the whole reason the sail is made of light, stretchy cloth is because the sail has to be able to handle a rather astonishing amount of adjustability. Can a mylar sail handle a mast that regularly flexes one to two feet (or more)out of column and a cunningham adjustment that when pulled tight actually stretches the sail several inches and doesn't just take up slack?
Show me this sail, and I will forego college to build it for you.

Yes, a polyester/mylar sail can handle the bendy rig, as well as a aramid/mylar sail (Finns use both)

Follow the first linky in response 110 in this thread - don't want you to forego college, but it's not a big deal to do it for a Laser either.
 
Yes, a polyester/mylar sail can handle the bendy rig, as well as a aramid/mylar sail (Finns use both)

Follow the first linky in response 110 in this thread - don't want you to forego college, but it's not a big deal to do it for a Laser either.

Yea, Finns, OK's, and Europe's have been doing it for years. It's time we get on the bandwagon. The only difference for them is that the sails are built to the sailors weight and mast spec's, which we don't have to do. We can build a one design sail out of mylar/kevlar/aramid/ whatever. I also beleive that Tri-Radial take load better then our current design, and would last much longer.
 
this thread totally makes sense, oh wait:

Byte Sail: $525.40 plus shipping, dacron

Radial: $500

Byte CII sail: $625.40 new mylar

Full Rig: $530

Topper: $375 (approx.)

Optimist: $495 (quantum sails)

29er main: $995

Europe Main: 725 euros (Green Sails in Germany) around a grand converted

470 Main: made by North 516 pounds (conversion around $1000), Olimpic is 770 euros, Banks Sails: 495 pounds (and this is one of those classes that has multiple builders, and bunks the argument that multiple builders will ease the cost of sails)

You can tell how long most of the Olympic class sails last by checking the classifieds at their respective class websites, a season at most? and these people are sailing more then all of us desk jockeys.

How many top level events do you think the top sailors get out of their Sails? Honestly. How many of you really think your sails are holding you back from breaking through? You think that your starts are perfect, your boat is always flat, and your technique around the race course is such that your BIGGEST problem is your sail?

Best quote i ever heard from a coach to a sailor was: at a 420 NA regatta, a kid was complaining about having older sails and getting hosed to which his coach responded: "Kid, you could be sailing on the course with brand new 470 sails, if you miss the first shift, you are always going to get hosed."

Whine all you want, but you're sailing an olympic class boat you can get used for cheaper than most of the flat screen TV's that are on your wall. And still be competitive in most fleets.

If you want to compete in a cheap sport, choose soccer or checkers, cuz a checker board will last you a life time and costs 5 bucks, and a soccer ball will last you at least 4-5 years of CONSTANT use, and you're out 20 dollars (for a decent one).
 
You can tell how long most of the Olympic class sails last by checking the classifieds at their respective class websites, a season at most? and these people are sailing more then all of us desk jockeys.

I think the point that people are trying to make here is that it would be nice if the sails lasted longer for us desk jockeys.

Whine all you want, but you're sailing an olympic class boat you can get used for cheaper than most of the flat screen TV's that are on your wall. And still be competitive in most fleets.

If my flat screen TV wore out after I watched a really good movie then I would be pretty annoyed.

The issue isn't really price, it's durability. If a strictly class legal sail that would remain the same shape for a few years of club and regional regattas were sold for about the same price as the current sail I think it would quickly be adopted.
 
if you can find any dinghy that has the durability of sails that you are all looking for, that'd be freaking amazing. If you can find ANY sail that lasts 2-3 years and hasn't lost it's competitive edge after summers and winters of regattas (regattas where you are constantly racing against the top singlehanded sailors in the world), you're one lucky cat.

Big boat sails? When people are dropping 10's of thousands of dollars on stuff, you have a reasonable expectation that it is going to last. My friends run a tp52 campaign, not even a top one, and their sails are 2-3 years old made out of 2005's latest technology, and they still are as blown out as a 2-3 year old laser sail.

For sail making companies, you think they have any incentive to throw hours of manpower (just imagine what it would cost them to innovate, research, design, and prototype new laser sails) away on sails that net them 150 bucks at most? the Byte guys did, and they're c-II sail is well over 130 bucks more than a full rig sail, (and that doesn't include the new carbon mast you're going to need) you're more than welcome to sail byte c-ii's - they are cheaper than a laser, but I don't want to be around when you snap that snazzy new carbon mast and rip your fancy pants mylar sail, because your complete upper mast is $800 and change, and your lower is 5 dollars short of a $1000.

If you want a class with sails that last forever and are super cheap, join a developmental class, and build your own.

If you want to sail in a one design fleet that tests your skill as a sailor and can potentially propel you to the olympics, work hard, earn some extra coin, and buy a racing sail and a practice sail.
 
(Modified)

if you can find any dinghy that has the durability of sails that you are all looking for, that'd be freaking amazing. If you can find ANY sail that lasts 2-3 years and hasn't lost it's competitive edge after summers and winters of regattas (regattas where you are constantly racing against the top singlehanded sailors in the world), you're one lucky cat.

Come on, class legal opti sails are just under 500 dollars and those last half as long as a laser sail.

And you missed the point. Olympic sailors sail a full season, chock full of training and racing on a suit of sails, us desk jockeys get out there and after 1 big breeze regatta are convinced our sails are blown out. Olympic sailors are good enough to know when they've lost performance in their sails, sailing against the top sailors in the world.

I'm talking about weekend warriors we're racing against, and we're convinced that the 2007 BBR is the reason we can't hold a lane off the line, because we sailed 3 days in big breeze. If you're smart, and you know it is going to nuke, bring your practice sail and use that. Heck, you can find those in the used pages for the price point you're looking for, and they still have plenty of regattas left in them.

I'd love to get an Robert Scheidt and Ben Ainslie in their prime in our boats with our sails that we are convinced are blown out and have them give us their honest opinion on how much weekend warrior racing the sails have left in them.

Big boat sails? When people are dropping 10's of thousands of dollars on stuff, you have a reasonable expectation that it is going to last. My friends run a tp52 campaign, not even a top one, and their sails are 2-3 years old made out of 2005's latest technology, and they still are as blown out as a 2-3 year old laser sail - and they readily need new ones.

For sail making companies, you think they have any incentive to throw hours of manpower away (just imagine what it would cost them to innovate, research, design, and prototype new laser sails) on sails that net them 150 bucks at most? the Byte guys did, and they're c-II sail is well over 130 bucks more than a full rig sail, (and that doesn't include the new carbon mast you're going to need) you're more than welcome to sail byte c-ii's - they are cheaper than a laser, but I don't want to be around when you snap that snazzy new carbon mast and rip your fancy pants mylar sail, because your complete upper mast is $800 and change, and your lower is 5 dollars short of a $1000.

If you want a class with sails that last forever and are super cheap, join a developmental class, and build your own (i don't want to know how much the fabric, research, design, and prototype are going to cost, or, even better, your aeronautical engineering education, just so when you do start crunching numbers, you know exactly what you are looking at).

If you want to sail in a one design fleet that tests your skill as a sailor and can potentially propel you to the olympics, work hard, earn some extra coin, and buy a racing sail and a practice sail, and perfect your technique, work your way up your weekend fleet, and by the time you make it to the olympics, you might need a new sail.
 
(Modified)
If you can find ANY sail that lasts 2-3 years and hasn't lost it's competitive edge after summers and winters of regattas (regattas where you are constantly racing against the top singlehanded sailors in the world), you're one lucky cat.

I don't want a sail that lasts for years of summer and winter regattas...just one that lasts longer than the one we have now; one which would stay reasonably competitive for a few seasons of casual racing. A new sail would always be better than a used sail, but Laser sails seem to deteriorate faster than they need to.
 
then quantify, how long does a sail last? What is the average age of laser sails in your local fleet?

and on another note, if you can find me a flat screen TV for 500 dollars that will last for 2-3 years of intended use and isn't complete crap, and Millionaires (or the equivalent of the premier tv watchers to Olympic class laser sailors) are using it let me know. I was talking about used boats with new and used sails, multiple upgrades and the lot - so with your 2002 boat, you can go out with your race sail, and beat someone with new everything, not because your boat or sail is better, but because you're a better sailor.
 
this thread totally makes sense, oh wait:

Byte Sail: $525.40 plus shipping, dacron

Radial: $500

Byte CII sail: $625.40 new mylar

Full Rig: $530

Topper: $375 (approx.)

Optimist: $495 (quantum sails)

29er main: $995

Europe Main: 725 euros (Green Sails in Germany) around a grand converted

A North sail is $ 530, and a Hyde sail is $620, both American. Now I would not have a problem paying $700 if the sails last more than 2 months!! Lets get some new sail material, that lasts longer! It's not that hard! We need to have a design contest or something
 
I tried to reply to this showing Intensity Sails pricing on 420, Opti, FJ and JY 15 sails to show that not all sail makers prices are that high. The post was removed.

Suffice it to say that pricing is not a function of actual costs on many sails.
 
Yeah, I saw the post. The prices were much lower than those cited above.

Obviously class-legal (or practice versions of class-legal) sails can be made/sold for less. But, can they be made more durable for about the same price as currently class legal equipment?
 
I don't think you'll find someone here who disagrees with that. In fact, in life, i think you'd be hard pressed to find any product in the world where pricing is an actual function of cost.

My point is that you have to pay to play, ESPECIALLY in olympic classes, where sails are super expensive. I'm sure your sails are great for knocking around the bay, but how long do they last? Longer than a north sail, Hyde even, when sailed the same length of time in 15-20? and still has the same performance and bend characteristics as the 3.8oz sails

I think what i'm trying to say is that there is no such thing as a sail that is cheap that lasts forever, that is class legal. Being class legal has inherent costs involved in it. They may be too much, but if you are a class member, then you rally around and see if you can affect change.

I'm saying you should be happy that you can go sail against olympians and get away with it for as cheap as you do, any other sport where you want to compete against the upper echelon of that sport (football, the real football, baseball, track&field, skiing, curling, ANY OTHER SPORT), all we have to do is get a boat and pay regatta and class dues and show up at nationals, OCR, or any other regatta.

I don't think laser sailing is so expensive that it is keeping people from getting into it.
 

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