Class Politics Intensity Sails

Rob, I love the idea because it would certainly be cheaper and therefore good for the class, but I can't see it happening. The manufacturer, distributor, retailer food chain is a standard for most types of mass produced goods - cars, food, clothes, sails, whatever. I'm not sure why - I've always assumed that manufacturers want to concentrate on their core business and not worry about the distractions of retailing. For the most part, sails for other classes are custom made, so dealing directly with the loft is necessary.

It isn't really something the class can mandate but I'm sure that if North and Hyde were willing to sell direct, there would be no objections from the class or sailors - only the dealers would be upset because they would have to find other ways to squeeze us dry :). But at the end of the day, North and Hyde would only do this if the benefits to them outweighed the difficulties. It is certainly a win for the sailors and the class, but where is the win for the manufacturers? More money maybe, but more headaches too. They are both successful businesses, so I am sure that they are smart enough to have considered this type of model, and done their sums and found out that it isn't worth their while. How do we sell the idea to them?

I suspect that if Intensity's sales continue to grow, they will reach a point where they either have to cease selling direct, or increase the price to cover the increased costs of running fully fledged marketing, sales, manufacturing and distribution operations. With the demand that they have, price rises are inevitable anyway, unless they really are in it just for the love and not the money.
 
leftfield said:
I suspect that if Intensity's sales continue to grow, they will reach a point where they either have to cease selling direct, or increase the price to cover the increased costs of running fully fledged marketing, sales, manufacturing and distribution operations. With the demand that they have, price rises are inevitable anyway, unless they really are in it just for the love and not the money.
Maybe they can make a fair profit at their current price. If they sell more it may even lead to cheaper prices since they can buy the cloth in bulk. And there is nothing better than cheap and fair prices to get "word of mouth" marketing for zero increased costs.
It is much better to sell a maximum number or sails at a reasonable price, rather than a reasonable number at a maximum price, but if you are greedy there is less work in doing it the 2nd way

Competition is meant to give cheaper prices, but with the duopoly of North and Hyde, collusion to set high prices is always a possibilty. Why in Australia are both brands being sold at exactly AUS$1000

Quote from dictionary "....Because there are few participants in this type of market, each oligopolist is aware of the actions of the others. Oligopolistic markets are characterised by interactivity. The decisions of one firm influence, and are influenced by, the decisions of other firms. Strategic planning by oligopolists always involves taking into account the likely responses of the other market participants. This causes oligopolistic markets and industries to be at the highest risk for collusion.
 
leftfield said:
To start with, the class would have to provide measurement diagrams for sailmakers to use. The class would need an influx of measurers with new skills to be able to measure all of these sails. Have you waited in a queue at a major regatta to get your boat and equipment measured lately? Takes a while? How much longer do you think it would take if you had to get the sail measured as well?

It wouldn't have to be that way at all. The sail could be measured, once, at the sail loft, before the class button went on.
 
Rob B said:
You're still missing my point. Hyde and North can still be the source, but remove the builder and "dealers" from the food chain. Laser class still gets their class money, the customer deals directly with the loft and we save $$$'s. Just like most OD classes.

The builder still sells the boats, spars, pieces/parts through the dealers and they can keep pushing rigging and gear that gets updated every year. The sailors get a price break on the sails. I think this would be good for the class.

Arguments to this philosphy?

1. The Laser class is by design not like most other OD classes. Just by reading Part One of the rules, it becomes clear how the class wants to control what is used and how it is purchased.

2. If the sailmakers sell direct, the builder and dealer lose out on what seems to be a good revenue stream. I would guess that means a price increase on new boats, and all the other builder supplied replacment equipment as well (ie spars, blades) to make up for the lost revenue

3. You assume the prices of the sails will drop. Why ? If there are only one or two class legal sailmakers to choose from, they will still charge what they think the market will pay. As examples, look at the price of racing Optimist, Club FJ, Snipe and 420 mainsails - and those examples have a more open market competition. How about giving us some examples of racing classes where the racing sail is priced so much lower then the Laser sail (adjust the pricing for sail area differences to be fair)


Of course I would love to pay less for everything related to Laser sailing, but unless there is a palace revolt, the existing rules are thrown out and probably some additional things that you and I aren't even aware of changed, it's just not going to happen. Plenty of examples to support that- the fact that we can't buy our vangs direct from Harken or Holt, the fact that we have to buy the builder supplied plastic base for the cleats, the fact that the proposed stainless clew sleeve will be builder supplied etc, etc...

Also, if by paying less, it hurts the builder and/or dealers to the point they can't provide the same level of service they provide today or worse, I don't think that is good for the long term health of the class. Are there other classes around where the builders step up and supply new boats for events such as World Championships, High School and College champs, Olympic Trials (in the US) and then are able to turn around and sell them via their dealer network ?

I'd much prefer to spend my time and energy on putting pressure on the class to improve the quality, durability and equality of the sail and spars within the existing framework.
 
Are there other classes around where the builders step up and supply new boats for events such as World Championships, High School and College champs, Olympic Trials (in the US) and then are able to turn around and sell them via their dealer network ?

Sunfish and Opti's

I'd much prefer to spend my time and energy on putting pressure on the class to improve the quality, durability and equality of the sail and spars within the existing framework.[/QUOTE]


I have no problem paying sub $500.00 for a sail that will retain its competitive life for more than one year.
 
J22 class sails are probably along the same as far as price per sq ft is concerned, but the COMPETITIVE life of the sails is MUCH longer. The jibs are usually replaced most often, but the mains and spins last an easy 2 seasons. Same for Flying Scots, JY 15's V15's, Sunfish, J24 and so on...
 
Maybe I don't understand this correctly. Please correct me if this is wrong.

When you buy a new car you buy it from a dealer who bought it from the manufacturer/builder.

When you buy a new laser sail you buy from a dealer who buys it from/through Vanguard who procures them through North or Hyde.

There's one more set of hands in the cookie jar.
 
When you buy a new car, the Brand X manufacturer contracts out of house on some/many of the components.

When you buy a new Laser, Vanguard does the same, in fact I think the only thing Vanguard actually builds itself is the hull.

When you buy a "genuine Brand X" replacement part from the car dealer (ie the new sail), if the part was originally contracted out, the replacement was too - so the supply chain is identical as when it was new and it's the same number of hands in the cookie jar.
 
Something that I think would help in this discussion is more factual information. There is a philosophical side to the "one-design" aspect that we can all discuss - ie should we change anything whatever the practicalities of it ? Thats why I think we have a very good system of voting on any proposed changes through ILCA.

With this sail issue though, the main point seems to concern the price vs performance and in this case its an issue of improved performance (in terms of lifetime anyway) at a lower price - a very unusual situation. Its not really comparable to all those examples quoted of more money buying better performance in terms of carbon fibre spars, mylar sails etc. OK the principle is similar in that if we allow this sail, then whats to stop someone getting an even better more expensive sail made, but I don't think anyone who is advocating looking at the Intensity sails is suggesting that.

Rather than go straight to a debate about whether a new type/make/manufacturer of sails should be allowed I'd like to use the example set by Intensity to investigate the current sail production. I know we won't get any commercial information but I think the licensed manufacturers should be willing to do this if they want to keep laser sailors happy.

If Intensity can make a sail for US$200 at less than half the price of a North - why can they do this ?
They don't pay the ILCA levy (even though they offered too) - so how much is the levy ?
They use a different cloth. Is it a cheaper/more easily available cloth ? I hear that the Dacron used for official sails is only made specifically to make laser sails and is obsolete for anything else - hence its expensive. Its also lost favour through being difficult to make though pollution problems - another reason for manufacturing moving off shore.
Its interesting that Intensity can make the sail in the US for less than the supposedly cheaper Sri Lankan manufacturers.

Is the sail essentially the same design - ie would it pass all measurement criteria ?
Or is there some manufacturing shortcut being made ?

What are the markups charged by the "middle men". We all expect businesses to charge reasonable markups but what is reasonable ? I can get the Intensity sail delivered direct to Australia for A$330 vs A$900 for an official sail from the dealer - something doesn't sound reasonable in that to me.

If we don't get any real answers (backed up by numbers and not just reasons) as to why we have to pay so much for the official sail, then this debate will go on and people will vote with their wallets.
 
The Intensity sail is "Made in China". At least mine was.

The price difference between it and the North/Hyde solutions is too great to ignore.
 
Here in new Zealand A class legal sail is $1200 and with shipping via air mail the intensity sail comes out at $375 ,so the advantage is clear when we sail in A non perfect environment. Now last year I purchased A new laser , with A new sail , now with A new sail from intensity I cannot tell the diffrance between the two sail types.
 
I think that non-class legal practice sails probably help the class more than they hurt because it helps get the guys who are just starting out or have that old boat that wasn't being sailed for awhile and/or don't have the funding to commit to laser sailing just yet (and it certainly encourages some to take the next step and upgrade to a class legal sail in the future). But I also think that it is important that there is a committed builder who is staying in business (how many US Laser builders have gone bankrupt in the past?).

BUT, that also shows a flaw in the current system. There are just 2397 class members in the US (as of August 2006) and how many boats kicking around? Does anyone even know how many have been sold in the US overall (tens of thousands maybe?)? The class doesn't benefit too much (directly) from most of those old boats that are out there, even most of the ones that are still being sailed.

Maybe cheaper class legal sails might bring more people into the fold since that can be the biggest barrier to getting into Laser sailing -- you can buy a beater boat for under $1000 and that boat can last you another 10 years or more but a new sail costs half that and in the best of cases is probably a blown out rag in two to three years or so.

I'm curious as to how many new sails are sold each year (anyone know that can tell us?), certainly I've heard that some of the top guys are going through a new sail every couple regattas or so but there must be loads of people at the bottom of the pyramid that buy one sail every couple years or even less often. So what's a good guess? 5000 a year? 10000? Wouldn't it be better for everyone involved for more people to buy more sails more often?

Maybe it would be worthwhile for the class to do some market research to find out if there is a price point that would get more people buying more sails. Personally, I'd find it easier to buy two sails at $300 in a year than one sail at $500. If you could double or triple (or more) the number of new sails purchased could you keep the cost per sail down but increase the profit to all concerned?

Here's an idea, what if there were some way to buy class legal sails at a greatly reduced price for class members-only while non-members pay the full retail price? At this point, even if it was only $50 less would make a difference to me. Having a big discount in price for members over non-members could be a powerful incentive to join up and could dramatically increase membership.

Just a thought. . .

-Steve
 
I fell that anybody that races top level is doing so and know the costs,thus they are paying for them selfs.Also anybody that is raceing at A club level that has not the inclination (nothing wrong with enjoying your self) to compete in A bigger pool are cost conscious. So what is wrong with letting the system that is now in place continue
 
iped said:
I fell that anybody that races top level is doing so and know the costs,thus they are paying for them selfs.Also anybody that is raceing at A club level that has not the inclination (nothing wrong with enjoying your self) to compete in A bigger pool are cost conscious. So what is wrong with letting the system that is now in place continue

Maybe, nothing's wrong but I think that less than 2400 US members in a class that has thousands of boats out there suggests there may be room for some improvement. I don't think anyone is too worried about the sailors at the top level -- they are already committed to the class and probably wouldn't be scared off if the class could build the membership. But those guys are the top of the pyramid, what I was getting at is that the purchase of a new sail might be a significant barrier to increasing the numbers at the base of that pyramid. Maybe, if there was a way to reduce that barrier by reducing the price of sails as a perk of being a class member we could increase the number of class members while increasing the number of Laser sailors while supporting our dealer-supplier-builder network. . . A tall order I know but it might be worth thinking about.
 
I completely agree with Sorosz. In fact, he's describing my current situation. Both the cost of new sails and the cost of travelling to national level regattas are hindering my performance as well as my learning curve.

420 class sails are 1.5 times larger and heavier than laser sails, and yet they only cost $200 more than a laser sail. That doesn't make economical sense!!!

Practice sails would be nice for heavy-air practice days. Having a blown out sail makes a difference even then. I could save my class sail for regattas.

The real issue, though, is the expense of the class sails. They're just too expensive for what they are, plain and simple.
 
Here in Australia, we tend to turn our boats over faster than in other countries (judging from the sail numbers at championships). I think you lose about $1000 selling a year-old boat. Because you'd pay almost that much for a sail, it's the logical way to go.

This means we get a continual stream of new boats being built (keeping the manufacturer and agents happy) and year-old boats being sold (keeping up a good supply of boats to club level sailors and allowing them to sell their nice older boats to those further down the chain). It seems to work well.

I'm involved in one class where the manufacturer sells the sails (mid-way between Radial and big rig in size) in better cloth for half the price of a Laser sail. These things are mylar and really last; I still use a 1992 sail (lightly used) for interclub races. The payback is that the manufacturer doesn't make enough from the class to make it worth his while to promote it, and that's one reason the class has gone from being much bigger than the Laser, to much smaller than the Laser.

Another class is a "normal" one design, with open sail suppliers. The hulls are light but last beautifully - so few people buy new boats and the manufacturer has had to bring out a competing product to keep his staff in employment. So now the class is facing an updated, improved product in the same market from the same builder. That's capitalism, it's also very, very bad for the original class.

This builder's new boat is going to have manufacturer-supplied sails. That means that even when the new boat sales start to slow down, the manufacturer will earn a profit out of the class and therefore he won't have to go out and start a third class to keep the production line running to keep the people he employs in food and mortgage payments.

So the Laser way of running seems to be worthwhile. And really, the way most of us treat our sails (letting them flog before the start, while rigging etc) is shocking, and very few people sail to the limit of their boat's potential anyway. A beaten up 50000 series (90000 boats older than the next oldest) with a 2 year old sail was in the top 6 in the 56 boat fleet in our Masters states, beating two of the current world champs and knocking off last year's world champ in half the races. The boat was held back by poor upwind technique, not by its speed.
 
Hi, all.
Just getting back into the class after doing other things for 20 years (should be interesting on my first time back out, lol).
Since the class has a class association, aren't we in control of the class? If this is an issue that the class really does not like, we should be able to vote for a change.
Steve Landeau
Laser USA 9999
 
Rob B said:
I make a motion. The Laser class needs to shop for a source that can provide our existing class legal sails for this price and hold it for 3 years. I'd bet they could find one in a week.


I like the tone of this thread!

How about we all just withhold our class dues:eek: until the ILCA-NA turfs the North-Hyde juggernaught and finds a vendor who can provide a durable product at a reasonable (ie non-ripoff) price?
 
Laser76489 said:
I agree to a point but how is your local dealer going to stay in buisness if not supported. I like my Intensty sail but I do struggle with it from an ethics prospective

If You stuggle with an ethics prospective, llok at it this way. North sails made in Sri Lanka employ children! They sri lanken sails are made by people who's who family put together couldn't even afford to buy a laser! I'm all for geting laser sails from someplace other than North or Hyde. All other clases have more than 2 sailmakers which you can buy sails off. Hell even optis have more than 2 different sailmakers.
 
Although I'm all for a different (ie cheaper) source, your ethical argument makes very little sense. Are you saying you would like to put those Sri Lankans out of work? However little they make now, they wouldn't be taking the job if it wasn't their best option. Who are we to say they shouldn't have that oppurtunity? The sweatshop argument holds very little water when you compare the alternatives. What kind of favor are you doing the Sri Lankans by trying to take away the best jobs they can find?

In fact one could argue that by NOT buying North Sails, you are helping to starve Sri Lankan children. I wouldn't make that argument of course, but perhaps you see my point.

Chris
 
OliLaser said:
If You stuggle with an ethics prospective, llok at it this way. North sails made in Sri Lanka employ children! They sri lanken sails are made by people who's who family put together couldn't even afford to buy a laser! I'm all for geting laser sails from someplace other than North or Hyde. All other clases have more than 2 sailmakers which you can buy sails off. Hell even optis have more than 2 different sailmakers.

I'm calling BS. We have had this discussion before and it's obvious you are clueless as far as the workers at North Sails in Sri Lanka, their working conditons and their wages.

:mad:
 
It doesn't matter what the wages are, who's making them or where. These sails are computer cut and sewn, right? It doesn't cost more than $50 to produce this sail. Not even aviation has that kind of markup (ok.... some of aviation does, but I'm sure you get the point).
 
It wouldn't matter who makes the sail as far as what we pay for it, since the sailmaker is not the one who sets the retail price.

This thread may give you a little more insight
http://www.laserforum.org/showthread.php?t=1214

There are other threads that cover the number of fingers in the pie and why it makes sense for the long term health of the class - Use the search feature.
 
GTChris said:
Although I'm all for a different (ie cheaper) source, your ethical argument makes very little sense. Are you saying you would like to put those Sri Lankans out of work? However little they make now, they wouldn't be taking the job if it wasn't their best option. Who are we to say they shouldn't have that oppurtunity? The sweatshop argument holds very little water when you compare the alternatives. What kind of favor are you doing the Sri Lankans by trying to take away the best jobs they can find?

In fact one could argue that by NOT buying North Sails, you are helping to starve Sri Lankan children. I wouldn't make that argument of course, but perhaps you see my point.

Dear Chris,
You are a perfect example of how ignorant Americans (Canada included) are. You say it is better to have a job that pays very little instead of no job at all right? First off is have you ever been to a north loft. I have been to one in Canada and it is pretty much a sewat shop there, and that is in CANADA!!!! I have never been to the North plant in Sri Lanka. However I have been to Sri Lanka and observed some of the working conditions. The word Slavery comes to mind, ever seen armed gaurds and birbed wire fences at your work??? The people who work in these kinds of places make just enough to food themselves. That is fine right? Worng you see most workers are not children but mothers of multiple children, who also need feeding. Wait a minute the worker makes enough to feed themsleves but theres still 2 others. I don't no if you took world economics in a university or coledge, but I have, we have had lectures on this exact topic(not with sails) basicaly the point of the lectures was that sweatshops make the people worse off than if they didn't work there.
https://cleanclothes.org/urgent/02-12-05.htm
http://www.cleanclothes.org/companies/northsails-05-08.htm
http://www.evb.ch/index.cfm?page_id=2677
http://www.evb.ch/en/p25002547.html includes wages as 63 to 73 euro per MONTH think about that 150$ US a month to buy food, for lets say 3 people, to buy water and shelter and clothing. If you spent all your money on food it works out to 5$ a day for one person and about $1.66 a day for a family of 3 I don't even know if you could buy anything at my local supermarket for 1.66$
 
You are still clueless - that is not the same company. North Sails Lanka made windsurfing sails only. They were licensed to use the North Sails name, but were not owned or controlled by North Sails. The license to use the name was revoked prior to that article.

The company making the Laser sails is owned by North Sails.
 
OliLaser said:
Dear Arogant American http://www.evb.ch/en/p25002547.html
Read that it tells you how much they make its penuts

The followup to those links, it appears, is here where it would appear that the union representing the workers won. I did not find anything on "labor" and "North Sails Sri Lanka" since this article (Jan 2004).

I have not been to Sri Lanka so have not personally seen the North Sails operation there. However, I have spoken to several people who have toured the facility and their comments were quite positive with no indication of a sweat shop operation.

With respect to alternatives... it is my understanding that Intensity Sails, besides not being legal Laser/Radial sails for racing, are sourced from China. Does that make their heritage more pure?
 
i refuse to feel bad about purchasing sails for my Laser. i'm sorry that non-Americans feel that we are somehow upsetting third world economies by buying or not buying a sail. i do feel that if the operation of sailmaking was moved from the current Sri Lankan factory, it would be replaced by another, retooled, and the same workers would be producing some other product the next month. and not getting paid enough. currently, this is the hand we have been dealt. here in America, unfortunately, a majority of our consumer goods are produced overseas.
 
I always get a bit confused by the "keep your local dealer in business" argument. Some things in "your local dealer" can be impulse purchases, others you need now because you have broken something. Sometimes you want to see before you buy, look at different models and chose the nicest/best/etc.

When it comes to Laser sails, what doe s"the local dealer" add. Do they keep them in stock (and if so why, UPS et al can deliver next day !), do they give you a choice (e.g. a Laser sail or a Laser sail or you could chose a Laser sail).

Local dealers are appropriate for some things but just giving them money to keep them in business is daft. I think every sail I have ever purchased (not yet purchased a new Laser sail) has always been directly from the sail maker -but this is in the UK.


Personally, if the sails are shown to conform to the one design measurements and have no performance advantage (i.e. keep to the strict one design rules) then I would be in favour of allowing another sail maker.
However, I assume these Intensity sails are not measured (as I assume proper Laser sails are). How much would the measuring add to the cost of the Intensity sail ?

Ian
 
OliLaser said:
Dear Arogant American http://www.evb.ch/en/p25002547.html
Read that it tells you how much they make its penuts

Oli, it's clear you have a racist bigotry toward Americans. I'm sure there are some radical muslim sites you can express your hate thoughts among your peers, but I'm tired of your political BS here.

As for wages, cheap labor and all that. Back in the day we used to worry about the cheap products coming out of Mexico. Now the people in Mexico, (and US) worry about the cheap stuff coming out of China, India and Asia in general. Intensity sails are made in China. I work with contract manufacturers in China. They work in facilities that look like US high security jails. It's done to keep the unemployed, poor, starving folks out. Not to keep the employees that are elated to have the jobs in. They work nearly 24 hrs a day and live "on campus". They funnel their wages back home for the family to live, (in a lot of cases) and are allowed to go home a few times a year.

Anyway, the Intensity guys don't keep so much of the China dollars in their pockets and they don't have to pay the Laser class for the red button either, (that red button must be a big part of the class budget!).

The intensity sail is a great value, but the idea of opening up our class to multiple sail makers is a big can of worms.
 
Deimos said:
I always get a bit confused by the "keep your local dealer in business" argument. Some things in "your local dealer" can be impulse purchases, others you need now because you have broken something. Sometimes you want to see before you buy, look at different models and chose the nicest/best/etc.

When it comes to Laser sails, what doe s"the local dealer" add. Do they keep them in stock (and if so why, UPS et al can deliver next day !), do they give you a choice (e.g. a Laser sail or a Laser sail or you could chose a Laser sail).

Local dealers are appropriate for some things but just giving them money to keep them in business is daft. I think every sail I have ever purchased (not yet purchased a new Laser sail) has always been directly from the sail maker -but this is in the UK.


Personally, if the sails are shown to conform to the one design measurements and have no performance advantage (i.e. keep to the strict one design rules) then I would be in favour of allowing another sail maker.
However, I assume these Intensity sails are not measured (as I assume proper Laser sails are). How much would the measuring add to the cost of the Intensity sail ?

Ian

I think there will always be tradeoffs - Before looking at different sides, remember that what makes the Laser class unique when compared to most other classes is the fact that the parts of the boat that directly impact the performance thru the water are tightly controlled so that we sailors don't need to worry about the guy next to us outspending us to buy better performance. The group that started the class decided the best way to do that, as well as market the boat and ensure it's long term success is what we have in place today.

You could take your argument about what does the dealer add and apply it to pretty much everything that is part of the Laser - in that case, why even bother having dealers ? Just buy direct from the builder and cut out the markup that the dealer adds. The builder can setup a few warehouses in his territory so that for example you don't have to drive 3000 miles to pick up your new boat. But you can't do that without additional cost either, not to mention the potential impact on the long term marketing and health of the class from not having a Laser or 10 displayed at every dealer.

Some might be in favor of an additional sail maker, but that sailmaker would have to sell the sails thru the same distribution channel that the current ones do to be class approved. So the price we, the end user, would end up paying would be in the same bracket as the two other class legal sails since it's not the sailmaker who controls the price the end user pays...

There is already a lot of opinion out there that one sailmaker makes a faster sail then the other (note I said opinion and not fact :) ), having a third will only add fuel to that fire which dilutes the fact about what makes the Laser unique that I started my reply with.

What about allowing the sailmakers to sell directly to the sailors ? (ie cut out the dealers and the builder) On first glance it sounds great, we have a pretty good idea what the price would be, don't we. But don't think for a minute that the prices on everything else Laser would stay the same. If you remove part of the builder and dealers revenue, they would raise their prices on everything else to make up for it. So what have we saved ?
 
Now we've seen so much discussion on this and arguments from both sides, is it worth setting up a poll so we can gauge what the majority think ? You never know ILCA measurers may follow these discussions and a significant vote either way could influence their actions.
 
Wwhow, time out....
Next we could discuss the markup on the aluminium tubes that make up a Laser mast. Performance Sailcraft control the class and not anybody else. Like so many people in our world they do not ask "how much is that thing worth that we are selling here?", but they ask "how much do we get away with".
This Laser thing is fourty year old technology, the concept of the class is true 21st century. We pay a premium for that.
 
I don't understand why we have to pay a dealer, there is no dealer within 100 miles from where I live even though there are more than 20 lasers in town. So I am resorted to buy on line or waste half a day. I would much rather buy directly from a store. I agree, too many hands, ILCA could make much more and have more members if they allowed more certified sailmakers who guarantee to comply by ILCA measurements.
 

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