Intensity Sails/Non-Laser Class Certified Sails

Let them be, or protest.


  • Total voters
    13

ABLaser

Cedar Point Yacht Club
I was recently at a regatta where I saw multiple boats using Intensity, and APS laser sails, not certified by laser class for racing. I have another regatta next week. Should I file a protest against all boats using illegal sails? Or just let them be?
 
I would say it depends on the type of racing. Informal round-the-buoy racing, I say do whatever is needed to get butts in boats on the line. If it is a series of races over several weeks, or a multi-day regatta where people come from out of town, class-legal sails should be used. Regardless before filing any protests and creating a bunch of hurt feelings, I would think there needs to be a discussion as to what the sailors participating want. After deciding that, it should be written into the sailing instructions.

And yes, I know requiring class-legal sails are already written into the instructions through a combination of clauses in the Rules of Racing and class rules prohibiting making any changes to the class rules. However we all know the ridiculous state of the class along with the price and availability of class-legal sails.
 
The proverbial damn has broken so whether you like it or not after market sails are here to stay. They fit into local programs well because they allow sailors to compete at a much lower price (approx. 150 vs 600). You can certainly protest but do you really want to be known as "that guy?" Just go buy your own aftermarket sail (you can get three for the price of one regulation sail!) and have a good time. That said, large regattas still do require laser sanctioned equipment.
 
Several ways to look at this situation. Most people are not made of money. They could ruin their nice new Laser sail when racing against you at a non sanctioned event or use a training sail. Many people only use their good sail for big races. They use the training sail for training and perhaps smaller races.

Other people cannot justify spending $600 on a sail when their boat cost them $1000.

I encourage people to have both and use the training sail for messing around.

Nothing like hearing some sissy boy whining about his new sail flogging on the beach.
 
To me the solution for local/beer can races is to pick your favorite knock-off sail, then everyone use that same sail.
 
I actually threatened to protest someone over his rooster sail this weekend. At an ILCA sanctioned laser open. I have no issue with newbies using them to get started but if you are in the front half of the fleet I feel you should be using official gear. If you are doing a circuit (which this open was part of) then you really need official gear.

I actually only threatened as he was being a knob and trying to intimidate me into tacking too early for a mark in strong tide. He soon shut up when I used that threat. Highly unlikely I would have carried it out but hey.
 
I think it comes down to are they in the top of the fleet in a sanctioned event, winning medals, or if they're just learning and trying to have fun

top sailors, sanctioned event, knock offs not acceptable
beginners, sanctioned event, yellow area, let them sail, it's not like they're using a turbo sail, if they pull a miracle win it's not because of the sail

we allow them in our frostbite series, there is literally no difference, except that a new sail is actually affordable, so the only advantage would be for someone who is priced out of a new sail forced to use an old pos might actually be able to be competitive with a non-class sail,

The really ridiculous thing is that the non-class sails are probably built closer to spec than the class ones!
 
The Intensity Sail is certainly made from better cloth and has a nicer shape than the North class sail.
 
Better cloth = Not within Laser Specifications.
I'm hanging out for the new sails to be released, which might be some time. The current official ones leave a lot to be desired but the current official ones are completely within specifications including the variations in dimensions. To say that ones fake ones are probably more within specifications, when they are made with a material outside of the specification just because the tolerances on dimensions are tighter is ridiculous.
 
I think what laserxd was hinting at is that the overall quality control of the 'replicas' is better than the official sails so there is a much smaller spread in variation.

I have seen some massive variations in new official sails over the year. Putting 2 together one was significantly larger than the other. Both bought at the same time from LP.
 
Oh and if you are sailing at a class sanctioned event your boat should be 100% class legal so definitely no replica/training sails.
 
Think the above is true for a lot of laser sailors, for those who don't rely on their parents lavishing or those with kids n mortgage etc.
I treated myself to a new sail recently as the official genuine sail is a bit blown out and the draft is way back, making it such hard work it wasn't fun.
I could've merely not bought diesel and not bought food last month and got a new one eh !
It winds me up that the ethos was always about encouraging folk on the water to have fun, now it seems to be about balancing the books...
£450 quid for 8 metres of Dacron ? Only if it came in black with a logo of my choice
 
Tell you what, I'll buy only class legal sails if you guys pay my kid's college tuition bills.

Think the above is true for a lot of laser sailors, for those who don't rely on their parents lavishing or those with kids n mortgage etc.
I treated myself to a new sail recently as the official genuine sail is a bit blown out and the draft is way back, making it such hard work it wasn't fun.
I could've merely not bought diesel and not bought food last month and got a new one eh !
It winds me up that the ethos was always about encouraging folk on the water to have fun, now it seems to be about balancing the books...
£450 quid for 8 metres of Dacron ? Only if it came in black with a logo of my choice

Of course the counter argument is that you both bought into the class with the long standing sail situation so you could say tough and live with it or sail a different class.

There are Laser sailor I know who say everyone knows about the class and how expensive parts can be and they still chose to buy in to the class for good or for ill...

That said for club racing my views are well known. If you want to do the open circuit/open regattas you boat should comply with class rules.
 




Of course the counter argument is that you both bought into the class with the long standing sail situation so you could say tough and live with it or sail a different class.

That's exactly the kind of snobbery that elvoves from narrow minded ness ...and more than slightly presumptious.
So in your world, only those with expendable income can go sail a laser ?

Very elitist..

I agree though at 'important' events all boats should be equal, but with regard to sails can this happen without total sponsorship ?
If 100 sailors arrive for an open meet, how many will be breaking out a brand new rolled sail that morning for the 1st time ?
How many will be using that 3 race old sail ?
How many will be using that 5th event sail ?
It's never going to be exactly equal unless we all get brand new sails at every meet.
 
Not elitist at all and I do take exception that you consider it that.

I am all for getting as many people on the water and sailing (and from my point of view racing). I do think that there comes a line where you have to comply 100% with the class rules and, in my view, that is when you start attending Class Sanctioned open meetings or any of the major events such as the Grafham Grand Prix, Draycote Dash, Bloody Mare, Starcross Steameretc... I also believe that many people here share that view and that is what has made the class great over the years.

We all know the class legal standard sail is an overpriced piece of cr*p and we are all waiting (but not holding our breath) for the new sail to be released. This is why I support use of replicas at club level so you can have a competitive sail for use in your local friendly fleet racing and keep your class legal sail for 'best'. This is what I do and I have a class legal sail that is 5 years old but has only been used about 7 or 8 times.

I can pretty much guarantee that if you turned up at a UKLA sanction event in the UK with replica parts it is unlikely you would be allowed to compete. In fact the UKLA has said they will withdraw the 'grand prix' status for any club that allows the use of replica parts for any class sanctioned event (they are of course at liberty to hold an open meeting but it would not be part of a wider travelers circuit). We do put a note of the poster for our Laser open that boats must be class compliant although we do not enforce being a member of the UKLA.

There are plenty of clubs I know of that do not permit replica Laser parts of any kind and you will be told you cannot sail as part of the Laser fleet until your boat complies (although I am sure you could race as part of their handicap fleet but what is the fun in that).

Would you do this in any other 1 design class?

Would you do this in any other sport?
 
Well it's a bit of a moot point then.
Who would take replicas to sanctioned events and try to sneak by unnoticed ?

Don't know what the fuss here is about tbh
 
People do as implied by the OP. I have seen it myself. Usually local sailors who do not seem to think it applies to them. Luckily there are usually a few class legal sails floating around that people are prepared to loan out so everyone can sail.
 
Sorry mate didn't mean to ruffle your feathers.

Regarding clubs policing the issue.
Talking to a regional measures bod the other day he quoted the 'official' stance that ilca n isaf could hold us to if backed into a corner and made n example of....
Along the lines of - if found to be using non class legitimate equipment should be reported and could face suspension (racing) up to a period of five years plus.

Can you imagine !

Considering the current state of general skint ness - not personally but generally - if every principle at every venue were to enforce such a ruling they surely would find their floating numbers drop significantly. At club level - average Sunday racing.
People just wouldn't bother or migrate to double handers ( bloody L2k's lol)
 
No worries, sounds like we think along the same lines (unlike a local large elitist club near me who are seeing membership fall away significantly whereas we are almost at the point of needing a waiting list).

Hence why we allow them for club racing ;). I have no objection to paying the full price for a sail where I can see where my money has gone. I sailed a Blaze for a few years, sails for that were around £500 mark which I had no objection to paying as you could see what you were getting for your money (and it would last a long time).
 
I generally run 2 sails, but sometimes 3. I have a specific regatta sail which is relatively good condition, and an old regatta sail that has become my club racing / general training sail. Additionally, I sometimes break out an old club racing sail to use when just wanting to go out. I may this year retire the club racing sail and buy a new regatta sail and let the cycle begin again. A lot of people at the clubs I sail at do the same, the only difference is the frequency of change over and that is largely driven by how seriously they are taking there racing i.e. masters heading to the worlds will always buy a new sail, my current regatta sail was my Terrigal Masters Worlds sail (2008), but it's only been doing 2-4 days usage per year since then, I've backed off a lot in recent years in doing regattas, in the old days is was 6 significant regattas (20+ days of racing) what you'd call sanctioned events.

The topic of sanctioned events is interesting. If a club wants to run a Laser race, it's not sanctioned, but it's a Laser race and the boats are meant to comply with Laser class rules including association membership and legal class sails. If a club wants to run an open class as a regatta or even just scheduled club race, anyone can turn up with anything and compete, no need to worry about legal sails, legal hulls, memberships of association. It's really up to clubs and organises if they want to have a "Laser" class.
 
What's wrong with allowing other brands to supply class legal sails with the buttons, ie. they pay the royalties same as Hyde and North? (Both current brands cost the same and this has been the case forever, so price fixing would be simple to prove in a court) So, the current arrangement is actually a restriction of trade in that it is a duopoly, and price fixing is in place. In Australia we have laws against this sort of thing and that if it were tested in court, ILCA would lose.
 
The problem is that it is not a monopoly/duopoloy as you can always sail a different class of boat.

If other manufacturers then buy in to the Laser model and get certified/approved their prices are likely to rise significantly as they will need to use to approved models which are supported by the builders (sails must be builder supplied, you cannot buy them direct from North or Hyde).

Same as the vang assembly, you should buy this from an approved source otherwise technically, it is not class legal.
 
Ok say you drive a Ford ute and there is a part that only Ford supply are you going to take them to court because you cannot use a Holden part?

Same thing...the choice is there (and I believe has been tested in other countries where monopoly laws are similar).
 
Ok say you drive a Ford ute and there is a part that only Ford supply are you going to take them to court because you cannot use a Holden part?

Same thing...the choice is there (and I believe has been tested in other countries where monopoly laws are similar).


If I was prevented from registering my ute and being allowed to drive it on national roads because of Ford's "restriction", then maybe. In Aus, Ford would not be allowed to prevent another company from producing that part.
 
But the part my be 'Type Approved" (or whatever the certification purpose is in Aus.

Look at it like that. You can buy a pattern part but it is not type approved for the Laser.

In theory nothing actually stops you using it but if you attend a class sanctioned event and try to use it you will likely get protested or told you are not allowed to compete using it.

You could like it to the Moto 2 championship as well. Everyone has to use an approved Honda 600cc engine so you would not turn up with a Yamaha 600cc engine would you....
 
Yes, we all understand that to race in sanctioned events, you have to use class legal parts. But if we step back to the supply of those class legal parts, we find that they supplied by a business, which business is registered in Australia. That business has to comply with the laws of the country in which it operates. OK, we accept we have to use Laser approved parts to race, but the problem is, we are being done over in the supply of those parts. Unlike the Ford ute part analogy where we can choose to use another non-Ford branded part and still drive it legally, the same is not true of Laser parts. It is not true for Laser parts because the Laser business restricts other suppliers from operating in their cartel-like market. We all know who manufactures the bits that the builders themselves don't make. But, even if a supplier wanted to make those parts and supply those parts to the Laser business, royalty paid, they cannot do so because of the cartel arrangement. I think that's essentially what the Laser sailors beef about.

Choosing to sail the Laser means having to also bow to the cartel, so it's too bad for us. Just because we accept this arrangement, it doesn't mean that it's right. Just that we are prepared to be screwed over.
 
Yes, we all understand that to race in sanctioned events, you have to use class legal parts. But if we step back to the supply of those class legal parts, we find that they supplied by a business, which business is registered in Australia. That business has to comply with the laws of the country in which it operates. OK, we accept we have to use Laser approved parts to race, but the problem is, we are being done over in the supply of those parts. Unlike the Ford ute part analogy where we can choose to use another non-Ford branded part and still drive it legally, the same is not true of Laser parts. It is not true for Laser parts because the Laser business restricts other suppliers from operating in their cartel-like market. We all know who manufactures the bits that the builders themselves don't make. But, even if a supplier wanted to make those parts and supply those parts to the Laser business, royalty paid, they cannot do so because of the cartel arrangement. I think that's essentially what the Laser sailors beef about.

Not quite accurate, these 'pattern' parts still have to go through an approval process (they certain do in UK and EU) so they get a Type Approval marking which means they are a direct replacement part and have been approved for use with the particular components on the vehicle. This is common for consumable components such as brake linings and disks. There will be parts on that vehicle however than only Ford can supply as they are specific to Ford, this is the same as a Laser sail IMO. The sail is specific to the Laser and the manufacturer and CA have said 'only sails supplied by supplier x are eligable for class sanctioned racing.

Now we all know what happens in the real world, we go and get our replica sails and got racing locally with them and generally have a good time....

Choosing to sail the Laser means having to also bow to the cartel, so it's too bad for us. Just because we accept this arrangement, it doesn't mean that it's right. Just that we are prepared to be screwed over.

Exactly, most people who are going to sail at a competitive level in the class know what they are letting themselves in for.

As for being prepared to be screwed over I would disagree. Were I buying a 'class approved' sail every year for club racing I would feel screwed over but I and many others do not.

The situation is not going to change, unless you fancy taking on PSA and ILCA in court, I think you may get short shrift though as choice is in the market.

So say you didn't want to pay Fords prices for ute parts you would buy a Holden ute, same thing but different ;-)

Time to go sailing?
 
One idea for the relaxed rule fleets is to score them differently. So you have everyone on the same course, and score the class legals together, intensity's together etc. To make a point, you could post your own version of those results with the "classes" divided up. People will start saying "Well, I was first APS! even though I finished 5th overall." "Or I was second class legal, and I'm a purist, so that's good enough for me to claim second." If you really think someone has an advantage by using a different sail type, you can at least score it this way in your head. You'll know that legally you won, and you'll verify this when you goto a big event where everything must be class legal.

I have been through stages of being paranoid about people on different sails, foil shapes etc. I decided to do everything stock (my foils had been faired etc. and potentially even had a different shape than stock) just to get to base. Now all I worry about is technique and it is an amazing feeling - I can't be tossed for my boat, I am sailing the boat as it is designed and legal and I never wonder if the sail isn't quite stretching the way a class legal would. I know if I beat the top guy, I have done it myself and not because of a potential advantage of a different sail.

I know that if someone beat me because of their foils or their sail type, then they really didn't beat me and my true ranking will show when I goto a major measured event. In my experience, most people worrying about the different sails are not at the very top of the fleet. The people at the top know that they can rig any sail and still be there. When it's windy, maybe I'll practice more on my practice sail instead of my class legal to preserve it. I do believe they are meant for practice, not racing, but I don't mind if others actually use them in racing for "small pond" events.

My current mindset that has really helped let go of caring about different sails etc., has been to focus solely on improvement and sailing well and not on results. If I sail faster than everyone, smarter than everyone and more consistently than everyone, I won't care about what sail cloth they are using because I will be better than them all and the results will show it anyway.

You could try talking to the members of the fleet informally (not in a protest) and express concerns and open a dialogue if you wanted.

This happens in our local J/24 fleet too - some people are 100% class legal with measurement certs etc. Others mostly just race literally for the fun of it and aren't tied to the results. Their boat isn't 100% compliant but nobody cares because rinky dink local events don't really matter anyway. Often the people who aren't serious/dedicated enough to be class legal (they don't travel to major events etc.) are not winning anyway. Shit, sometimes a goddam sonar shows up on the line. Even in our local laser fleet, I think if a sunfish or a banshee or a force 5 showed up, no one would care. So, I think it does happen in other classes. It's all about what the goal of the local fleet is, and how seriously they take their lasering. I actually think it's a lot like surfing -you pick the crowd/vibe that suits your intensity level. You wouldn't show up to Miami OCR with a practice sail. And you wouldn't show up to a rinky dink pond event protesting every infringement of class rules you saw. Your situation is probably somewhere in the middle and if you want to sail only with class legals, travel to those events. Concentrate on sailing better is how I vote.
 

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