How to proceed - Gelcoat vs Paint over fairing

Mama H Chicago

Mother of sailboats
UPDATED: Jamestown Distributors is not open today (Labor Day in the US). I would call them if I could, but I’m impatient and have the day to play with my boat. ;-)


Is it okay to apply TotalBoat WAXLESS gelcoat over TotalFair, and then later cover that with Gelcoat with wax?
My only current options that I have in my garage available are:

- putting some TotalProtect barrier coat over my TotalFair, but I don’t know if I can build up Gelcoat over that??

- putting TotalBoat Gelcoat with Wax over the TotalFair areas, then sanding and going back for some waxless coats to build up the Gelcoat, finally finishing with Gelcoat with wax

This is all for the hull of my sunfish. I’d consider doing paint, but I’d need to do a lot more with the TotalFair to get it cosmetically prettier. For some reason I was thinking Gelcoat was going to be easier at this point…

…and as I’ve finished typing this, I may have realized my answer should be to put on TotalFair as needed, and finish sanding her to perfection, then TotalProtect, then paint???

argh. I don’t know what to do. Any thoughts?

image.jpg


Thank you very much for any insights!
 
Gelcoat like paint will not cover up imperfections. 95% of the job is surface prep. Close your eyes and run your hand over it. If you csn feel imperfections, it's not ready (for the "best" job you can do).
Gelcoat is like paint too...in that it is cosmetic, but more durable and typically a thicker layer. All your epoxies and barrier coats already provide the waterproofing.
Depending on how much you might "beach" the boat might dictate how much you perfect the undersides. Make the deck look as perfect as your desires want it to be.
 
Btw...I stopped using waxed gelcoat or anything involving wax years ago. Although still useful in molds, a product called Duratec eliminates the need and even the need to seal off oxygen to curing gelcoat. Its a gloss and smoothing agent that totally replaces any need for wax mixed in gelcoat. I can spray a properly prepared surface with a disposable (PreVal) sprayer....and then a light sand with #400 or #600 grit before a final buff with quality buffing pads and buffer. Dark colors show swirl marks more...so a finer sand with #1500 and a finer compound and more "friendly" buffing pad will be needed. White and its' shades cover up a lot
 
Gelcoat like paint will not cover up imperfections. 95% of the job is surface prep. Close your eyes and run your hand over it. If you csn feel imperfections, it's not ready (for the "best" job you can do).
Gelcoat is like paint too...in that it is cosmetic, but more durable and typically a thicker layer. All your epoxies and barrier coats already provide the waterproofing.
Depending on how much you might "beach" the boat might dictate how much you perfect the undersides. Make the deck look as perfect as your desires want it to be.
I decided to throw on a guide coat and im now sanding with my flexisander. If there are any imperfection that I can’t live with, I’ll put a little more TotalFair there. Then it’s on to TotalProtect and paint!
image.jpg

I'm able to undo my swirl and gouges I created, pretty well with the Flexisander. Time to just get this done!
 
Sometimes when youre sanding, applying a "guide coat" like you might be suggesting...can be helpful to getting everything to one, uniform color. A bunch of different colors or shades makes it hard to see the imperfections. Plus as you've probably observed, once sanding again, the high and low spots will really reveal themselves.
 
Btw....a $60 DeWalt random orbit sander might work best for you...and the "Dust Buster" in line with your vacuum hoses, prior to the actual shop vac will do wonders keeping your shop vac from clogging and rather collect the residue in the Dust Buster bucket. Ask Signal Charlie....he's a proud convert too. I sand 40ft boat bottoms with the rig and its very much dust free.
 
For those who may not know, mixmkr has made a living with marine repair and he should write a book. So when mixmkr talks, we listen.

There is an enormous amount of wisdom in Post #2 above. We could all set other thinking(s) aside for a second and read Post #2 slowly, like Grasshopper listening to Sensei, and then think about what our End Game is?

CAUTION: Paint Philosophy follows:
1. We paint because the gelcoat is too damaged for us to stop and learn how to economically gelcoat Sunfish sized areas. Mixmkr has knowledge in the gelcoat area. We don't want to be the Pied Pipers of Painting.

Free Kitten Before:

MERCI Arrives.jpeg


MERCI Bottom.jpeg


2. For us the End Game is to return as many Fish as possible to their natural habitat, whether we do it or assist others. And we want them to have some style when they splash. For you Mama, what's the End Game with the boat, FISHNET is it? When we go the paint roue, we start at the end choosing our coating scheme, it's always been paint because our Rescues have been so derelict, and then we work backwards from the paint color. Example, if we want our boat to be a beautiful WWII Stearman Trainer Blue, then Pettit EZPoxy Ocean Blue one part polyurethane is our choice. We stick with the Pettit line of products as far back to the beginning as we can, including primer, fairing compound and thinner. Or products that we know for certain are compatible. International Orange leads us to Kirby Paint. Oyster White leads us to Rust-Oleum Topside. Medium Blue to Interlux Brightside. Kingston Grey to TotalBoat WetEdge.

Free Kitten After:

Merci after 3.jpg


-Back to gelcoat. We are learning too and you are asking some good questions. I can't believe those hoodlums at Jamestown Distributors had the nerve to not answer either one of our phone calls over the Labor Day weekend! I'll sure let them hear about it today.

-TotalFair needs to be dry before sanding. I saw in one of your photos where some of it was still darker green, so it was still drying. If a thick layer is applied, it can take days to dry vs hours. Several thin coats are the answer, think "skim coat." Ask me how I know?

-I'll be curious what JD says about the gelcoat over TotalFair question. I asked the Tech Team the same thing, and what my brain heard was to let the TotalFair be dry-dry-dry and then dry some more, maybe wait a day after that, then prime over that with a gelcoat compatible primer.

-I'll echo what mixmkr said, gelcoat or paint are not "built up" in the sense of evening out surface hills and valleys. The fiberglass repair and fairing and maybe a smidgeon of primer are used to get the smooth surface for your choice of final coating.

-We are trying TotalBoat 2 Part Epoxy Surfacing Primer, and there is also a 2 Part Epoxy High Build Primer ( as in build up thickness) that could help fill in some divots.

-Capn Jack (Skipper's Dad) Wisdom. 1) Primer is a bridge, between one material and another. 2) Paint is a coating. Varnish is a coating. Gelcoat is a coating. 3) At one point you have to stop sanding.

Lugger Audrey and Jack.JPG


"Any thoughts?"

Take a look at our Problem Solving Matrix.
 
Last edited:
Ive always believed gelcoat will stick to any epoxies, but it is a mechanical bond....meaning the gelcoat needs to physically grab the surface it is being applied to, to stick. Thats why a decent grit sandpaper (min #220...but #120 even better) is used to scuff up the prepped surface; to create the physical ridges and texture for the new gelcoat to "grab" onto. Some epoxies when cured create a "blush" , which feels a bit wax- like, which also must be removed by washing with soap and water (NOT sanding which can shove the "blush" into the grooves vs removing it). West Systems is famous for this. The same with removing dust or any contaminants which might inhibit that "grip". This is the same as sanding/prepping a shiney window sill with enamal paint, for new paint. You are taking the shine off the paint, but in essence creating a texture for new paint to grab onto.

The other type of bonding is chemical bonding....where the new top layer actually "melts" into the layer beneath. (Remember that old model airplane glue, now illegal, that actually melted the plastic surfaces together...a distant relative to soldering). Thats why there are "laminating" gelcoats without wax, fiberglass resins....all designed for a follow up layer (of the same "family" material) to "melt/bond" into it. Rememeber....even though epoxy and gelcoat may both "stink"....their makeups are different, putting them in seperate catagories/families of marine materials. Continueing on....some epoxies have a window of time to avoid sanding each layer, before they are fully cured, to allow another layer to be applied on top....which usually will be either a final finish coat or another "buildup layer". This provides a chemical bond...typically much stronger than a mechanical bond
But that deserves potentially another discussion.
 
Last edited:
Btw....a $60 DeWalt random orbit sander might work best for you...and the "Dust Buster" in line with your vacuum hoses, prior to the actual shop vac will do wonders keeping your shop vac from clogging and rather collect the residue in the Dust Buster bucket. Ask Signal Charlie....he's a proud convert too. I sand 40ft boat bottoms with the rig and its very much dust free.
I haven’t had any issue with clogging so far? I found a Dewalt Dust Extractor on Facebook for $25!! It’s a true HEPA Filtration system that clears its filters every 30 seconds. Will adding the dust buster in line help even more?
 
For those who may not know, mixmkr has made a living with marine repair and he should write a book. So when mixmkr talks, we listen.

There is an enormous amount of wisdom in Post #2 above. We could all set other thinking(s) aside for a second and read Post #2 slowly, like Grasshopper listening to Sensei, and then think about what our End Game is?

CAUTION: Paint Philosophy follows:
1. We paint because the gelcoat is too damaged for us to stop and learn how to economically gelcoat Sunfish sized areas. Mixmkr has knowledge in the gelcoat area. We don't want to be the Pied Pipers of Painting.

Free Kitten Before:

View attachment 53445

View attachment 53444

2. For us the End Game is to return as many Fish as possible to their natural habitat, whether we do it or assist others. And we want them to have some style when they splash. For you Mama, what's the End Game with the boat, FISHNET is it? When we go the paint roue, we start at the end choosing our coating scheme, it's always been paint because our Rescues have been so derelict, and then we work backwards from the paint color. Example, if we want our boat to be a beautiful WWII Stearman Trainer Blue, then Pettit EZPoxy Ocean Blue one part polyurethane is our choice. We stick with the Pettit line of products as far back to the beginning as we can, including primer, fairing compound and thinner. Or products that we know for certain are compatible. International Orange leads us to Kirby Paint. Oyster White leads us to Rust-Oleum Topside. Medium Blue to Interlux Brightside. Kingston Grey to TotalBoat WetEdge.

Free Kitten After:

View attachment 53446

-Back to gelcoat. We are learning too and you are asking some good questions. I can't believe those hoodlums at Jamestown Distributors had the nerve to not answer either one of our phone calls over the Labor Day weekend! I'll sure let them hear about it today.

-TotalFair needs to be dry before sanding. I saw in one of your photos where some of it was still darker green, so it was still drying. If a thick layer is applied, it can take days to dry vs hours. Several thin coats are the answer, think "skim coat." Ask me how I know?

-I'll be curious what JD says about the gelcoat over TotalFair question. I asked the Tech Team the same thing, and what my brain heard was to let the TotalFair be dry-dry-dry and then dry some more, maybe wait a day after that, then prime over that with a gelcoat compatible primer.

-I'll echo what mixmkr said, gelcoat or paint are not "built up" in the sense of evening out surface hills and valleys. The fiberglass repair and fairing and maybe a smidgeon of primer are used to get the smooth surface for your choice of final coating.

-We are trying TotalBoat 2 Part Epoxy Surfacing Primer, and there is also a 2 Part Epoxy High Build Primer ( as in build up thickness) that could help fill in some divots.

-Capn Jack (Skipper's Dad) Wisdom. 1) Primer is a bridge, between one material and another. 2) Paint is a coating. Varnish is a coating. Gelcoat is a coating. 3) At one point you have to stop sanding.

View attachment 53447

"Any thoughts?"

Take a look at our Problem Solving Matrix.
I was proud of myself while applying primer yesterday…I had tried the galloping horse and solution 2 and 3 that followed, yet was still troubled. I added my own probably should be #1 on my list: ITS THE HULL! Who is going to see it???? ;-)
 
Appreciate these insights! I think I’m going to restrict my gelcoat activities to my coatings and maybe some repairs on unpainted surfaces for now. I’m back to thinking paint is what is needed to get my school of 5 Fish back in the water!
 
If your filter hasn't clogged yet then you are not in the Sanding Stratosphere like mixmkr and myself. Adding a cyclonic separator will extend the life of you expensive HEPA filter and provide an extra line of defense from sanding dust.
 
If your filter hasn't clogged yet then you are not in the Sanding Stratosphere like mixmkr and myself. Adding a cyclonic separator will extend the life of you expensive HEPA filter and provide an extra line of defense from sanding dust.
I do believe in following the wisdom of those with experience. I'll look into that cyclonic separator do-hickey.
 
We mounted the Dust Deputy and the shop vac to a furniture dolly, so they can follow us around the shop.
 
Third
UPDATED: Jamestown Distributors is not open today (Labor Day in the US). I would call them if I could, but I’m impatient and have the day to play with my boat. ;-)


Is it okay to apply TotalBoat WAXLESS gelcoat over TotalFair, and then later cover that with Gelcoat with wax?
My only current options that I have in my garage available are:

- putting some TotalProtect barrier coat over my TotalFair, but I don’t know if I can build up Gelcoat over that??

- putting TotalBoat Gelcoat with Wax over the TotalFair areas, then sanding and going back for some waxless coats to build up the Gelcoat, finally finishing with Gelcoat with wax

This is all for the hull of my sunfish. I’d consider doing paint, but I’d need to do a lot more with the TotalFair to get it cosmetically prettier. For some reason I was thinking Gelcoat was going to be easier at this point…

…and as I’ve finished typing this, I may have realized my answer should be to put on TotalFair as needed, and finish sanding her to perfection, then TotalProtect, then paint???

argh. I don’t know what to do. Any thoughts?

image.jpg


Thank you very much for any insights!
Third coat of Total protect is on! Note: don’t wear your favorite Lands End skort when applying epoxy primer! Yes, I’m that anxious to get Fishnet fully rehabbed
4CC2CC8E-D83F-47EC-90B4-56C13C556A98.jpeg
74ECE16E-78EB-4847-BFE6-F0AABC5DC222.jpeg
F04FBACA-516E-43A4-BAAF-913CF13CEE1F.jpeg
 

Back
Top