How do you gauge your speed

Skygod1

Member
Maybe this is rhetoric, but how do you gauge your speed? How do you know you are on the best tack and are trimmed ideally. Are there indications that other than trim just shy of leading edge luff? If you are sailing alone how do you know you are sailing the fastest that you possibly can? I watched the Lois Vuiton cup and I noticed those guys had some type of digital speed read out mounted on their mast. I suspect it was GPS linked or something of that nature. Since I am not about to put one on my boat I am wondering how everyone else does it.
 
Yes, those digital read-outs on the AC boats sure are nifty... and illegal in our class unfortunately =P. Umm it just takes practice I guess... I mean I'm no pro, so I'm not going to act like i know the answer to this question... but I'm sure it just takes practice... which is what keeps me wanting to get out on the water, I might have some kind of breakthough. This probably isn't the answer you wanted to hear.
 
Oh, and READ A LOT OF BOOKS. They're great tools and if you aren't sure what to do in a certain situation, laser sailing How-To's are great, and they're often written by some guys who know a lot more than a lot of us here do.
 
The only way to really gauge and fine tune your speed is to sail with one to a few other boats This can be during practice sessions (ideal) or during a race.

Solo practice is great for developing boat handling skills, endurance, and technique (as long as you are using good technique), but the speed diff between a well sailed Laser and a poorly sailed one is hard to pick up by yourself.
 
The only way to really gauge and fine tune your speed is to sail with one to a few other boats This can be during practice sessions (ideal) or during a race.
Not true. It's quite possible to just feel if the boat is acting better or worse.
 
I agree with mister 49208... i was going to say that you really just need to enter a regatta and try different things... you'll see quickly that since the last time you crossed someone they're now 5 boatlegnths behind you, you did something right... make notes to yourself, you can use a greasepen or something on the boat itself
 
Obviously I disagree with Josef. Perhaps we are looking at gross (you) vs fine (me) changes in speed.

I think most people, even those with lots of hours in the boat, would be hard pressed to feel the difference in speed that pulling any one the controls on or off one inch. Yet there is an effect.

I've run into very few people that can feel the difference in mast stiffness or tired sail vs new sail without having someone sailing next to them, yet they exist...

I'd also challenge anyone to figure out things like if pinching slightly in flat water results in a better VMG towards the windward mark vs a boat not pinching without the benefit of another boat to sail against..
 
Not to sound like I'm all that or something but I can feel the diffrence between very small changes.
This is probably due to me having been the only laser at my club for quite some time and that led to me practicing alone alot (every day during the summers pretty much, 2-3 times during the weekdays during the spring/autumn).

I hadn't really thought about why I would feel stuff that others don't before you made that post, but it kind of makes sense when I think about it. I know a bunch of sailers who are in similar situations like me and practice alot alone, and they seem to have a similar feel for the boatspeed.
Judgeing from that I figure it's something you can learn but I don't know if it's worth the time it takes learning =P

Edit: I can't feel the diffrence between switching from one mast to another, or one sail to another (assuming that we're talking about laser masts and laser sails). Cause well... it takes to long between the "tests".
What I can feel is diffrences if I make small changes during the sailing.
 
... digital speed read out mounted on their mast. I suspect it was GPS linked or something of that nature.

The mast read-out for speed can (and do) come from a number of sources. When I had larger boats never bothered with the GPS speed. The most useful are the standard log (which can be from an impeller on the hull or a ultrasound doper sensor - bother have different benefits and which is best depends on conditions and the water). Ultrasonic speed sensors tend to suffer inaccuracies when there are e.g. salinity variations (which are surprisingly common closer to the shore). Impeller sensors are a real pain in that they need such a lot of calibration. The hours I've spent running up and down measured miles at low/high water and still being a bit unsure of the final result !!


However, speed itself is not necessary useful. The (racing) systems tend to be fully integrated so you have a wind direction and compass so you can more usefully get VMG displayed. Often then useful to know not only what you are doing but what you should be doing so most such systems would have the boat's polar diagrams programmed-in and you you then display what you should be doing for the particular point of sailing (given the point of sailing and wind strength).


GPS speed is available but just so much more limited and tells you less.


etc., etc.


Ian
 
after sailing alot, you can gauge whether your going slow or fast, it just has that feel, you'll get it soon enough

flat is fast
 
Trusting that "feeling" that you are going fast isnt evidence you are truly making the boat perform its best. If you sit in a chair and spin around with your eyes closed long enough your senses tell you that you arent spinning any longer. When you drive down the freeway without looking at the speedometer can your body tell you that you are driving 65? Would you trust that feeling under the highway patrols radar gun? Honest officer it only felt like I was going 65. Even sailing next to someone can only tell you that you are going faster than them. What physical indications do you use to tell you that this is the fastest that I can make this rig go and there aint any more?
 
When I go practice by myself I work on boat handling skills. Leeward mark roundings, windward mark roundings, luffing in place, getting up to speed from being stopped, tacks, gybes, long distance hiking upwind, sailing shifts. There is alot of things I can do by myself.

For boat speed, I find some good guys to boatspeed with. Specifically some guys who have won worlds events, nationals, or equivellent. If I boatspeed with someone who is slow I will not progress. I need faster guys to practice with to make me better. Another point to be made is that two brains are better than one.

I prefer to train with someone who is better than me.
 
lol. I have no such qualms about opening my opinion filled mouth. :D Who would I be scared of annoying? lol.


When I start asking whether I am going fast enough when training on my own, I need to consider whether i'm just having a bad day or have overtrained.

If I take a rest of a week and then go back to it, I get a different feeling. Feeling only goes so far. Rest is a training technique that has to be learned too. Everything is connected.

If you can maintain a control point of feeling, it's quite accurate, but if you are angry or worried etc, the control point unavoidably shifts. It's the same problem with any feeling base measure.

The most obvious speedo I have is the colour and shape of the wake. All things being equal, and with enough remembered versions of wake in waves, flat sea, planing etc you can get a near enough indication when you're on your own that isn't totally feeling based. Of course if I were to describe the finer details of my wake to you, it may not be accurate for you. Depending on your body weight and local conditions, and what you think you see, it will be different for all of us.

For me, major improvements in speed through practiced technique come like revelations. They feel like someone else has suddenly trimmed the sail properly and found the "sweetspot" of technique and trim. Everything feels different, and good different.

Like tripping over the "stone of enlightenment", its a happy accident and you "get it".

The sudden change is obvious. Normal training may be improving your speed by increments you cannot feel or notice accurately until a few months have passed.

It's possible Olympic standard sailors still have moments of increased speed like that, even if the speed increase, if measured by GPS, is actually very small. You'd have to ask them to be sure. Otherwise, how is it that someone can continue to win the worlds four years in a row? What have the other sailors been doing - they've been practicing and improving, the title holder is practicing and improving.... If there was a finish line for laser sailing technique and speed, then it would be the only human activity in the world that could not be improved on.
 
What physical indications do you use to tell you that this is the fastest that I can make this rig go and there aint any more?

You are never making the rig go the absolute fastest it can.


do you want to set records or do well racing against other people ?


Ian
 
Saw, will you work with me?? Come on, I'm an Olympic campaigner, I just know when I'm going fast and in the groove, I know what it feels like when my wake is good and all that jazz lol :)
 
A "olympic campaigner" (whatever thats suposed to mean) dosn't really make you right on everything =P
Anyway, of course I do agree with what you're saying, also I understand why those who don't have the "feel" dosn't understand it.
It's just to complicated to explain.

Of course as someone stated, the feel isn't always there, sometimes if your in a bad mood or something and can't concentrate you won't get it and in conditions you're not used to you might not get it.
Also I do think that speedtraining is easier if you have other fast boats to compare with, but saying that the feel dosn't exist is just ignorant.
 
exactly Josef

and I was joking about Olympic Campaigner thing, kind of, kind of
 
I understand the "feel" and being a pilot understand how the feeling can be deceptive and unreliable. What I am trying to establish is; if I am training alone and "feel" that I am in the groove when I am not, that I will be learning the wrong technique. So I am looking for indicators that tell me that I am either doing what I should be, or not.
I am not denying that you can get sensations that tell you what the boat is doing. I just want to correlate that with the proper indications.
 
Why is it the wrong technique? I find it quite usefull during racing too as I need to spend alot less time thinking about how to go fast and just focus on where the wind is coming from and tactical moves.
I find it incredibly usefull in REALLY light winds when it's really hard to "see" if you're going fast or not. I never really figured out how you would go really fast in really light airs without feeling the flow in the boat.
 
I understand the "feel" and being a pilot understand how the feeling can be deceptive and unreliable. What I am trying to establish is; if I am training alone and "feel" that I am in the groove when I am not, that I will be learning the wrong technique. So I am looking for indicators that tell me that I am either doing what I should be, or not.
I am not denying that you can get sensations that tell you what the boat is doing. I just want to correlate that with the proper indications.


its a lot easier when you know what "the feeling" already feels like! lol

I know what it feels like, so it works for me, God bless years of private coaching
 
God bless years of no coaching whatsoever in my case =p
Haven't had any coaching since I moved over to laser from opti. I have alot of experienced highlevel sailers at my club (not in Laser though) and in my family though so I guess I get something from them.

Anyway, if you got the feeling - great, if you don't - whatever. Maybe you'll get it after more time on the water, maybe not. Dosn't matter to much, if you don't have it you probably have something else that you can use =P
 
if I am training alone and "feel" that I am in the groove when I am not, that I will be learning the wrong technique. So I am looking for indicators that tell me that I am either doing what I should be, or not.

hmm. seems like this is logic vs. experience at war with feel. The scenario you've constructed with logic here, may not actually happen in real life.

I'm not sure you would feel that you were in "the groove" if you weren't. Some things don't work in reverse, or work if perverse.

It is not a certainty that you would be using "wrong" technique. You may be using raw undeveloped good technique.

Sailing at your best, using feel, experience and technique will create your "groove". You won't suddenly fall into Ben Ainslie's groove one day. It will still be yours.

From a real life perspective, if you get to feeling you are going slow during your solo training and it's getting you down - then go fast!

Break onto a reach (or whatever point of sail is your "fastest") and go balls out! If there is any amount of wind it's hard to go slow on a reach.

It's a mind game too. Break the mental brick wall of "slow" that you hit by going around the wall, instead of through it by hammering away at a solution that isn't coming.

Stay alert and look for subtle accidental windows of opportunity to learn about some other part of your sailing technique tool kit. There is always something that jumps out at you, even when you're having a real crap session. When you see it, go chase it and learn about it. It's like taking the next exit off "slow" highway and going to look at a smaller interesting town.

Some other day you may be "fast" and feel it and see it. Who's to say that putting one problem down and tackling another isn't gaining you the skills to tackle the problem you left alone? lol.

One thing is for sure, wandering round thinking " arrgh! I'm slow" isn't improving your sailing experience. Feel that and know it.
 
I agree with mister 49208... i was going to say that you really just need to enter a regatta and try different things... you'll see quickly that since the last time you crossed someone they're now 5 boatlegnths behind you, you did something right...

You did something right or they did something wrong- it can be something other than speed. In fact you might have been going slower than the boat you have passed and, unless you know what it is you or they have done any lesson is worthless. And "knowing" might not be possible as you do not know what conditions the other boat was sailing in (wind strength, wind direction, tide, foul wind from other boats/fleets, etc.) and what the other guy was doing (e.g. having a drink, food, phone call, etc.)


This is a reason why concentration on "speed" is missing a lot of the point. I wonder if some here are still learning sailing and yet have to appreciate what is involved in racing. I wonder if some might benefit a lot from sailing two handed boats match racing. Can teach you a lot about what is needed to win - and it's not always speed.


Ian
 
Within the context of training alone, here are some basic, concrete (but not easily defined in mph/kph/knots) things that say you are approaching or going “fast”:

Sound

Under planning conditions in a short chop, you will hear the boat thud occasionally as it skips over waves. Your centreboard may start to hum.

In a short chop, beating, the front of your boat is not slamming as it leaves waves.

Your sail does not flap as you pass through a tack.

There is a hissing noise coming from the rudder.

Your bailer is making a sucking sound.


Feel

At planning speeds, your helm becomes lighter and may track easily in a neutral position. Boat goes in a straight line easily, is stable and has no natural tendancy to bear away or go higher.

As you accelerate, you need to trim your main closer in or you begin to luff.

Very little movement of tiller is required for adjustments in boat direction.

During gybes, the boom does not to crash so violently.

At no time is the tiller trying to violently pull your hand into the boat.

You think the length of your hiking stick may need to increase.


Sight

At planning speeds, the white water leaving your hull moves aft to around where the centreboard leaves the boat.

As you accelerate, the windicator will appear to move “forward” - towards the front most position of it’s arc.

You are travelling faster than the waves: Wave speed in knots = 3x the wave period in seconds. You’ll need to make an estimate of wave speed from a stationary point. Maybe a buoy. This will only be of use if the swell is large enough and uniform enough to see separate waves easily.

Your wake becomes flatter. The first rise of wake moves to the centre line of the rudder, not the aft quarter or turn of the bilge.

While beating and hiked, the average waterline rests at, or is above, the turn of the keel to the stem – or “cutwater”

The main sheet does not catch on the aft corner during gybes.

You are fully hiked as far back in the cockpit as you can without jamming the tiller.

There is no time when you are not either entering or leaving a wave trough while surfing.

Your boom end does not “trip” in the water.


No doubt there are more. Some are symptoms of other techniques. The centreboard humming is a fault, but it doesn't hum while you're going slow.

There could be another list regarding going fast strategically, but finding someone willing to give away their trade secrets could be difficult.

As Deimos points out, what you do with the speed strategically, and whether you can actually be your fastest given the layout of a specific course are additional issues.

The concept of boat “feel” I find interesting. If some people do not “feel” their boats and they have some other way of “knowing”, I’d like to hear how they do it.
 
Sorry to be a boring engineer in all this discussion about "feel", but if you're out on your own and REALLY want to learn what gives you the best speed, why not go hi tech like the Vuiton cup boats and get a Velocitek S10 GPS Speedometer. Gives you VMG every second or so and designed for mounting on a dinghy + data download and display of your entire training session on a PC.
No I'm not a rep for them but seriously considered getting one myself as I find it hard to get others to come out practising with me and having started sailing at 48, am having trouble getting the "feel", "groove", "force" or whatever.
 
Sorry to be a boring engineer in all this discussion about "feel", but if you're out on your own and REALLY want to learn what gives you the best speed, why not go hi tech like the Vuiton cup boats and get a Velocitek S10 GPS Speedometer. Gives you VMG every second or so and designed for mounting on a dinghy + data download and display of your entire training session on a PC.
No I'm not a rep for them but seriously considered getting one myself as I find it hard to get others to come out practising with me and having started sailing at 48, am having trouble getting the "feel", "groove", "force" or whatever.

What use is a VMG from a GPS alone ? Without a wind direction component the VMG cannot be in terms of Velocity Made Good to Windward (as the GPS does not know the "windward" direction). What you are interested in when training /practising for speed is VMG upwind (or downwind) and if your electronics does not know the wind direction it cannot give you this information


If the GPS has no wind direction sensor then the VMG can only be a VMG in the direction of the mark (waypoint you have programmed-in). Thus, if you program in the position of the mark you can get a VMG in the direction of the mark. If the mark is dead up/down wind (with neutral tide, etc.) then this will be a useful indication. However, first windshift and your up/down wind VMG will change (even though your speed and pointing have remained identical). So what have you done right or wrong (for the increase/decrease in your VMG) - answer nothing because you are looking at the "wrong thing".


Again, to get a good VMG towards a point tactics starts playing an important role. To get a training indication of speed and pointing you need something with a few more sensors.


When using electronics you need to make sure you understand the limitations of what you are using them for or they can be counter-productive.


Ian
 
Regardless of direction that I choose to sail I want to know that I am going as fast as I possibly can. Some thing like the Velocitek device can tell me that the configuration I am using is the most efficient. Whether I make progress towards a specific destination is a matter of tactics. As long as I sail on a straight course I want to sail that course as fast as possible. Once I have established technique and configuration with regard to wind direction, I will apply that to tactics.
 
I guess watching for signs on the boat or using a GPS or something might work if you have perfect seabreeze conditions or something to practice in.
I don't, I sail mostly on a reasonably small lake with quite dodgy winds, using something like that wouldn't give any usefull readout at all as the wind changes so much.

Need to eather go by feel or have another boat really close to you.
 
Regardless of direction that I choose to sail I want to know that I am going as fast as I possibly can. Some thing like the Velocitek device can tell me that the configuration I am using is the most efficient. Whether I make progress towards a specific destination is a matter of tactics. As long as I sail on a straight course I want to sail that course as fast as possible. Once I have established technique and configuration with regard to wind direction, I will apply that to tactics.

With regard to the "gauging your speed" a GPS can give you too readings SOG and VMG (to a point). VMG to a waypoint is not useful in the context of this thread as it takes no account of wind direction, tide, etc. as I described above. The wind direction is normally changing most of the time. Thus a speed over ground is of very limited use (except in the very rare very stable wind conditions). Just ask yourself - why do people sail dinghy races with a compass - to detect wind shift. If you look as wind shifts, they are not (normally) sudden but the wind has a gradually oscillating direction. Thus, as you are sailing along, so the wind is changing direction so you either change direction as well (messing up the SOG reading due to the damping in the GPS) or you hold your course, in which case your speed may increase or decrease (depending on your being headed or lifted).


Electronics has uses but, as I said before, you need to appreciate what they are actually telling you are they are worse than useless.

(I've been sailing with loads of top of the range boat electronics for years, then spending hours after the race analysing the performance against the boat polars through PC based logging and analysis software so have come to appreciate a bit about the use and misuse of different readings available.)

If you are not interested in listening (or reading what I wrote) then I cannot be bothered to keep repeating/explaining myself.


Ian
 
I guess watching for signs on the boat or using a GPS or something might work if you have perfect seabreeze conditions or something to practice in.
I don't, I sail mostly on a reasonably small lake with quite dodgy winds, using something like that wouldn't give any usefull readout at all as the wind changes so much.

Need to eather go by feel or have another boat really close to you.

For Lasers (and most dinghys) I would agree. If you don't have "the feel" then practice and practice until to develop it. Buying electronic devices will probably make things worse and stop you developing a feel for things. For me, sailing has always been a game of skill and fortunately conditions are always slightly different that seeking "recipes" is only helpful in the really early days (whilst learning).


Ian
 
skygod1,

can you describe what it is you see and look at and do when you go sailing?

You say you have no boat feel. What do you use? What is going through your mind when you sail?
 
I have feel for the boat, that's not the problem. I also have feel for my airplane. My discomfort lies in the fact that when I fly ( flying and sailing have a lot in common ) I am aware that your feelings can lie to you. Thus the discussion now. While flying and trusting your "feelings" over your instruments leads to accidents. I am aware that sailing isnt as fatalistic if you err, you just dont go as fast.
Currently I watch the tales on my sail for proper trim and try to coordinate the vang and cunningham adjustments to what is recommended. I go off of the feelings of velocity I recieve from the boat and the feel of power and acceleration I feel in the sails. I was wanting to know what other indications that others use. Mr Chainsaw was very helpful with his post. Seeing Ians makes me cautious about buying expensive electronics.
My whole dilema is that I dont want to develop bad habits because what I am doing "feels" like its correct.
 

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