How do I mend this deck? Replacing a mast step without a kit.

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Russell

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Hi All

This is my first post here though I've been lurking for a while.

I've just bought a very cheap Laser which I was told had a professional repair to the mast step which was why there were two plastic blocks bolted to the deck and some plastic reinforcing inside.

It looks to me as though someone has repaired the mast step but put the inspection port too close to the mast. The deck has then cracked and been repaired or maybe they didn;t repair the mast step in time.

The picture shows there are cracks in the deck some distance from the mast and the area between the inspection port and the mast is very soft with a soggy core.

My inclination at the moment is to grind off the outer skin and the foam core. Repair the inner skin with some mat applied from above, recreate a core - maybe with plywood for extra stiffness and finish by repairing the outer skin with mat. Maybe put some reinforcement around the inspection port too.

I'd be grateful for comments or suggestions.
 

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Re: How do I mend this deck?

wow.. what a trainwreck!

i'll bet gouvernail wil lhave some good answers for you.

you might shoot him a PM if he doesn't respond here.


best of luck
 
Re: How do I mend this deck?

i'll bet the top bit of the inspection port might peek outside the patch kit.
however, email aps & see if they have the specs & measurements for the patch kit. there also may be enough of some unrotten (is that a word) deck that you could scab in to fill the inspection port hole... that is if you use the patch kit from APS.

IMHO
 
Re: How do I mend this deck?

Hi Russell,

I guess we may now know that "Professionally repaired" may actually mean the repair was made by a Professional, who might have been a dentist, lawyer, or even a Professional wrestler? lol, (just kidding if you are one of those!).

More detail would help?, Year? pics of step bottom? other major problems? Intended use?

But it sounds like these patches prevented a failure, so I'd pull out any "repairs" inside as well, let it dry with a light on (forever!), then analyse, and make a decision. If the deck is soggy (wet) it may be wet everywhere, and if frozen a few times, may have trashed the whole thing. The symptoms are discussed previously on other threads, but loose top layer on side deck or cockpit sole, are places to look.

Of course weigh it. (95%+ of anything over 132 lbs is water, and may have been there for years).

If the rest seems worth saving, and since you seem competent, you have the right idea. You can save the top layer if you want to try for a cosmetic patch, or just skip it and cut out a big piece, fill as you described, and fair it over and match the color as best you can.

If it's truly soggy, soft, etc around that port, and your final cosmetics aren't a big concern, then I'd cut the top layer in a big triangle, or diamond, and nicely symetrical. I'd go outside the port, and end up filling that area. I wouldn't use the kit, as it's quite expensive, and cosmetically just a patch when you are done.

I've done a few by cutting thru the bottom. Then it's easy to stiffen the deck, replace a worn tube, etc. And the final patch of the bottom is very easy to fair nicely. That is a different topic though.

But I'm assuming you are competent with glass, and have 4-5 months of winter to putz with this, and that the rest of the hull is worth saving. And that cosmetics, or final weight aren't going to cut into your chances of an Olympic berth.

The bottom of the mast tube needs to be much stronger than the deck area, so don't bother if you can't make that part really strong.

Good luck, and welcome to Lasers.

Al Russell
182797
 
Re: How do I mend this deck?

Thanls Al and others.

It's a 1979 boat and the rest of it looks pretty good The bottom of the mast step looks OK (see pic) and the only reason to worry about that is that it might have been done by the same person as the deck.

I'm planning to use it for club racing but as I'm generally at the back of the field then the Olympics will need more practice.

The repair kit isn't available in the UK as far as I know and anyway it costs more than I paid for the boat and most of it's gear.

I'm not sure I need to cut it out symetrically. I thought I could just make the final layer of glass symmetrical. and it's probably best to destroy the minimum I need to.

I think you're right that it might be better to repair the hatch hole too.

The issues I'm still wondering about are how to join the repaired area to the original area to avoid a hinge effect which might lead to cracking and a related question of what to use for a core - bearing in mind that the core would have to be bonded to a surface that might be uneven.

Any more ideas?

Thanks.

Russell
 

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Re: How do I mend this deck?

The crack at the edge of the deck repair doen not worry me all that much. If it is soft under it, I would grind it away and re fill it. Usually if I am fixing the deck in that area I put some glass around under the deck as well. Fishingmickey just had me repair his mast step. We thought it was coming loose at the bottom and put in an inspection port to get at the inside. I took a bunch of photos and cn scan them to my website. I am suppoed to be working right now so the page will be very simple but I should have it up in a few minutes.
 
Re: How do I mend this deck?

Thanks for all the advice and especially for the pictures.

At least now I've got a plan.

I'm going to try and put the deck back like it should be - fibreglass top and bottom and core in the middle - probably resin and glass bubbles for the core. I don't know yet how much I'm going to replace but if I can mend cracks then that's easier than rebuilding a lot.

Of course it depends what I find when I start grinding.

First priority is to get it inside and drying and I've arranged somewhere to put it on it's side indoors for a while (in the garage with a couple of floor to ceiling props to lean it on).

Thanks again

Russell
 
Re: How do I mend this deck?

General rule>>
If it is wet something is wrong with it.

Most stuff in a Laser does not soak up water. If the Laser is holding water there is almost always accompanying delamination. When I am trying to get long lasting repairs I remove anything that is wet before it has a chance to dry out. I might occasionally remove and replace more than necessary. The other option is to dry things out, lose the indicator of "It is wet and therefore something may be screwed up" and sufffer later when the "dried out part" delaminates again and soaks up water again.

Note: I am somewhat of the industry renegade on this subject. Ignorant people all over the world have written for years about drying out blistered keelboat bottoms. They and hundreds of repair shops all over the world ignorantly tell ignorant customers about the necessity of drying laminates and moisture content and all sorts of things totally unrelated to repairing osmotic blistering.
It seems we have a sailing community made up of people who never paid attention in high school biology class.
The only way to fix a blister is to remove the soluable chemicals that won't pass through the semipermeable membrane.

Note: If John Kerry had written this note:

You can study high school biology and chemistry and work hard and get good grades or you can be stuck with a blistered bottom.
 
Re: How do I mend this deck?

I think we may have different ideas of dry. Since I started this thread a 6 inch deep pool has collected in the cover of the boat. I can't tell what's wet as everything is! I think we have more rain here than in Texas.

More seriously - that's a good point - I'll start my investigation as soon as its dry enough to work on.

Russell
 
Re: How do I mend this deck?

This is turning out to be a bigger job than I thought - so much so that I have another hull lined up - but I'm going to try and put this one back together first.

Repairing the deck has proved difficult because of the large lumps of resin on the inside from the previous repair - so I've taken the dramatic step of cutting away the damaged deck and grinding away the previous repair. This seems to be a good move - resin appeared to have been poured in with a bucket - the area around the mast (about 12" square) was about 1" thick. Grinding these repairs out has reduced the weight by 19lbs! It's probably dried a bit too with the extra ventilation.

I've started putting it back together and today's question is do I need to replace the plywood around the mast step - it seems easier and probably stronger just to glass the step in place.

I've attached a picture to amuse you too. Can you think of any reason (sensible or not) why someone thought it was a good idea to saw off the bottom of the mast tube.

Russell
 

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Re: How do I mend this deck?

Is the object in the picture a piece of the mast tube? If so, what does your mast tube look like now?
I would use some plywood there. It is lighter and it will be easier to shape (a circle). After that you can put fiberglass and expoxy over it.
You will also need to fiberglass the deck back in one piece. I would build it up on the top. Just make sure it is straight (tape off the part of the deck that does not need to be glasses) so that it does look professional. Paint layers of epoxy over it and sand so that it becomes an even repair. Some automotive spraypaint in the color of your deck (off-white) will nicely finish the job.
please post some pictures of the deck and mast tube.

Georg
 
Re: How do I mend this deck?

Hi Georg

Yes. It's the bottom of the mast tube - it was still in place and full of resin - but it's clearly been sawn off.

My mast tube looks just like a mast tube - only shorter. I've ground the end down and i've started lengthening it using the top of an aerosol as a former. Pic attached.

It's difficult to do a picture of the deck but I've attached a picture of the hole - you can see where I've fibreglassed over my grinding and over the big blob of yellow filler in the bottom of the boat.

And if anyone's wondering - yes I do have more spare time than money.

Russell
 

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Re: How do I mend this deck?

Wow! We should redefine the word "professional" for sure!
They probably cut off the tube, because they had no idea that it is actually sitting in something else. They probably saw it as a whole and the only way to get access to the damaged part was - they thought - to cut it in two pieces.
Two things: That bottom piece should be REALLY strong.
Make sure you get the bottom piece back at the right spot. If it is too much forward your boat will be slow. If it is too much aft your boat will be fast (up to a certain point) but illegal. If it is off to one side, well who knows what will happen, but it ain't good. Create a bottom piece at the right spot and let the other piece slide in there (as it is supposed to do).
Good luck!

Georg
 
Re: How do I mend this deck?

Here's the latest update on the repairs. The picture shows the jig I made to get the mast step in the right position. I set it by putting it in an undamaged boat and using a couple of G clamps to lock it in place. The mast tube is a snug fit on the jig so that holds it while I fibreglass the bottom in place.

It worked well - at the second attempt - the first attempt showed the jig wasn't snug enough side to side but the second attempt was good. I put the bottom mast in and measured the rake - the same to each corner of the transom and 151" to the centre which is within the range quoted elsewhere on this site. Mast step is 14" deep but still needs a plate in the bottom.

I think I'm going to call it Lazarus.

Russell
 

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Re: How do I mend this deck?

There's a bit of a delay on Project Lazarus now while I sort out the materials needed for the rest of the repair. I'm pleased with the way it's gone so far so I'd like to try and put the deck back properly - it took me a few phone calls to figure out what I needed though. Eventually I found a really helpful man at the UK distributors of Airex foam who knew exactly what foams and densities had been used in Lasers since the beginning.

The original type foam is 55 kg/m3 but is only available in large sheets which makes it prohibitively expensive for my repair (not to mention carriage) but he suggested using the green foam used in later Lasers (Airex C70.55) or given that it was around the mast step a denser version (Airex C70.75). I'm going to go for the denser foam - for the area I need it will be about 30 grams heavier - although it's more expensive it'll be slightly cheaper because of the sheet size.

Russell
 
Re: How do I mend this deck?

Looking forward to the ongoing repairs Russell,my 1979 boat is just starting to go round the mast lip,but have been putting it off and putting it off,think i'd better make a start before it reaches your herculian task!!!
 
Re: How do I mend this deck?

I think you can purchase a mast step repair kit. I did a Goolge search and saw some pics of one done on Boothbay Maine. Here is a link for someone who may sell them. HTH
 
Re: How do I mend this deck?

Here are some pictures showing more progress.

The first shows a gap where filler had fallen out under the cockpit floor (the boats upside down in all of these) - I've put some filler in there since I have access. The second shows a pre-emptive strike against leaks at the centreboard and where I've replaced some foam and the piece of wood. The third shows the arrangement for supporting the foam while I fibreglass the inside and the fourth and fifth show it after I've taken the support away.

I dug out some foam from the deck mainly as it was wet (picture2) - it might have been better just to dry it out as it didn't show any sign of delaminating. It seems unsurprising that they gain weight as the lay up on the inside is quite porous. Weight is now about 140lbs.

I think the mast step repair kit might have been a good idea - but as far as I know they are not available in the UK.
 

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Re: How do I mend this deck?

More progress and some questions.

I've finished laminating the inside of the new deck section - access is much better for the next stages.

My thoughts have been turning to the next stage - and what sort of finish to try on the deck. I've got two decisions to make.

First do I paint the deck or do I try and do a coloured resin finish - this is complicated by the fact that the deck was painted to hide the previous repair so if I want a coloured finish that paint would need removing. The paint is only on the deck not the cockpit and some of it seems loose.

Second how do I make a textured finish to blend in with the existing non slip pattern. I know I can't make a perfect match but I have a couple of ideas - I could use a roller to try and get a texture on the resin or I have some offcuts of floor covering with a textured pattern on the back. I could try painting that with mould release liquid and then pressing it onto the top layer of resin.

I'd welcome any thoughts on those.

Also I've been wondering about putting the new name on (Lazarus). Does anyone know which font is the best match for the Laser logo type face?

My thoughts have also turned to putting the fittings back on. If there is anyone out there who has upgraded their ratchet block and has a spare one they would like to contribute to Project Lazarus it would be gratefully received.

Russell
 

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Re: How do I mend this deck?

Russell,
Good work! I am impressed!
I would paint the repair, since you will also need some kind of uv-protectant. Paint is good for that.
For the non-skid pattern: ideally you could make a mold by using another part of the deck. I am not sure how one does this. Alternatively you could just make the whole area around the mast non-skid.
Good luck!
Georg
 
Re: How do I mend this deck?

Russell/Georg:

Regarding the repair of the non skid pattern, I suggest you go to www.classicmako.com and search for a non-skid repair thread. A couple of years ago, one of my fellow members posted a "how-to" on how to make a mold from the exisating non-skid.

Hope this helps.
PAD
 
Re: How do I mend this deck?

Hi Georg and Pete

Thanks for the comments.

Here's a couple of pictures showing the current position (one taken earlier today).

I had a look at the links on restoring non slip patterns and the link you gave had some good pictures.

I'm still in two minds about this - I think matching the non slip pattern will be difficult especially blending it in to the existing pattern. My current inclination is to go for a basic texture in the right areas and then paint the deck so that it's all the same colour. I think that will look OK.

I don't think I'm ever going to be able to pretend it's not been repaired so I don't feel the need to disguise it completely - what I'm aiming for is that you need a second glance to see the repair and I think that makes paint the best finish as it guarantees a good colour match.

At the moment I'm inclined to try and produce a textured finish using thickened resin and a roller or a brush. I think I'm going to need to experiment before I try that bit.

Russell
 

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Re: How do I mend this deck?

Russell said:
My current inclination is to go for a basic texture in the right areas and then paint the deck so that it's all the same colour. I think that will look OK.
I think that is the way to go.
Once again, I am quite impressed with your accomplishments! This should be very helpful for anyone who wants to do a similar repair. When you finish the project would you be willing to share how much time and money you invested in this repair?

Georg
 
Re: How do I mend this deck?

Hi Georg

I've no problem with telling what it cost. I'm not sure that I want to add up how much time I've spent though - far more than the boat justifies. I'm sure I'd make a profit on the boat if I sold it but it would be a poor rate of pay.

For the costs the running total for the repair (mainly resin and foam core) is about £65.(UK pounds).

I still need to buy some paint and an inspection port for the repair.

That brings the total on the boat so far to about £230 - I still need some new deck fairleads and a cunningham rope and a ratchet block would be nice.

Russell
 
Re: How do I mend this deck?

Here's a picture showing it today. I'm just about ready to paint it.

The central strip is smooth - I masked that off and applied filler with a roller to the rest of the repaired area.

Russell
 

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Re: How do I mend this deck?

wow... looks impressive! Thanx for sharing the pics and your journey doing this project! I hope you're feeling a sense of achevment with it all. Well done :)
 
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