help with my rudder problem

pstruzzi

New Member
anyone have any solutions to keeping the old style rudder in it's position. when i sail in med-heavy air it keeps popping out of the lower piece. you can imagine it does become difficult to steer.
than
 
pstruzzi,

Tighten the wing nut after you snap the rudder down into place as tight as you can by hand. This may not keep the rudder from popping out from sideways pressure and will mostly negate the pop up feature if you hit something. Other things like putting a piece of innertube in the lower socket have been tried and most have not been any more sucessful than tightening the wing nut. This popping out under preassure was one of the reasons for the upgrade to the newer system.
 
I realize that my question is identical, but I thought I'd also inquire:

I recently acquired a 1971 Alcort Sunfish (has aft storage, old style rudder). After several days of sailing and spending more time hanging off the stern and snapping the rudder back into place, I have determined that I have a ton of play in the socket of my keel plate. I have tightened down the wing nut on the spring plate-- the vertical plate seems to slip out of the socket on the keel plate to the starboard side. What I cannot determine is if both the vertical plate or the keel plate (or both) have worn. The Sunfish Bible offers some suggestions (p.323) regarding this exact predicament-- taking a 1 x 1 inch piece of inner tube and placing it in the socket. While this seems like a short-term fix, it seems my other two options are: 1) attempting to find vintage keel plate/vertical plate to replace my worn parts, or 2) completing the pre-1972 rudder conversion for $350.

Any suggestions? Anyone else find a solution to this problem?
 
How good of a wood worker are you guys? If you want to upgrade to the newer rudder system (recomended), you can save about half the price of the kit by making your own wood parts and getting the rest of the parts from a dealer (or look for used). Then you can put on a wood or aluminum tiller extension (the 36" P/N V20428 ($27.00) extension is ok, but the smooth black shaft below the handle is slippery, where the Ronstan 33" P/N B20430C420 ($38.00) is fluted and gives a better grip). Also the universals are different on each (the 36" will not fit the Ronstan base, I had to convert the 36" to a Ronstan universal). If you get a long enough 1 x 10 piece of mahogany, you can also make a new Barrington style dagger board. Use ash for the tiller.
 
Ah... now you're talking-- a fellow Yankee frugal!!

Actually, I've had some experience with mahogany, and I'm an "advanced intermediate" woodworker. I haven't fabricated rudders or daggerboards, but I have already fabricated a new tiller out of mahogany.

I think this would be a decent compromise-- performing the conversion already requires some degree of "handiness". I already own a Ronstan 33" tiller extension, so I don't need all the items in the conversion kit.

If I didn't purchase the conversion kit, where would one find the technical instructions (as well as a part list) to perform the conversion?

In regards to the rudder (my daggerboard is still in fine shape), would it be worthwhile to upgrade to a fiberglass rudder? Otherwise, I think I'm up to the task of fabricating a new rudder (you recommend ash for the rudder, or just the tiller?). Any suggestions where I could find a diagram for the dimensions of the rudder?

Thanks again for such helpful insight... I love this site already!
 
Use Mahogany for the Rudder and/or Dagger board, it is proven and looks good also. Dimensions and diagrams for both are found on the SF Class site at the end of the rules section http://www.sunfishclass.org/admin/ISCA_Regs/isca_class_rules03012003.htm or borrow the blades and trace them including the location of any holes for posts and bolts. The Barrington board is a little larger than the early round board. You can use mahogany for the handles or dress it up with walnut, oak or other hardwood. The early round rudder is not wide enough at the top to install the current rudder head and tiller straps and is also smaller than the current version. If you make a wood rudder of the current shape and round the leading edge, there is not much of a performance difference (the FRP is a little stronger and may not require any maintenance other than a wipe down, down side is $$). The wood will require re-varnishing periodically. The home made blades will work great although they won’t be legal blades for sanctioned racing.

Use Ash for the tiller, it has a little more flexibility (think base ball bats) than mahogany (more brittle), just make sure the grain is continuous from end to end (and preferably side to side). Many of the factory tillers have been ash, just stained to match the rudder and dagger board.

Conversion instructions can be found at Yahoo Sunfish Sailor, Files, Sunfish, Repair Guides, Pre '72 Rudder Upgrade. http://home.comcast.net/~sunfish_sailor/Rupgrade/R_upgrade.html There is also a link at the bottom to Wind Line Sails that also has instructions with some diagrams.

PS - Started sailing in NY, parents are now in Maine and I am in St.Louis. Where are you?
 
pstruzzi,

pkkriz asked the question on SF Sailor and the response was to check the mounting screws for tightness. If your screws are loose :) and will not tighten up, put a little epoxy in the holes, redrill, and the replace the screws. You will find 3 for the top plate and only 1 for the bottom plate. Also check to see that the bottom plate is flat (not bent around the screw hole, a hammer and flat surface is a friend here)
 
Hmmm... will have to mull this one over. As I probably will race at some point, I'll probably end up buying the conversion kit (or individual components if the price is better) with the factory-manufactured wood rudder (fiberglass would be nice, but $$$).

Does anyone think putting this much effort into a 1971 (otherwise sound) Sunfish is not a financially wise decision? I purchased it with trailer for $600, so the price was not outrageous.

P.S. Grew up in Rochester, NY, spent 10 years in Boston, now reside in Barrington, RI. Lots of Sunfishers here!!
 
If you are going to race, you will really want the new style FRP daggerboard. It is a larger, more efficient foil, and therefore increases performance.

Come on out an visit our Barrington Frostbite Fleet. We start soon. Also, there are many sailors there that would be happy to help you out getting your boat set up. Last year we had 22 qualifiers for the series.

http://www.barringtonyc.com/FROSTBITE2006_7.htm

Good Luck!

Andy
 
Andy,

I'm just concerned about the added expense on a 35 year-old hull. I guess I could always take the FRP rudder with me if I decide to get a newer hull...

Pete

P.S. David Isherwood is my neighbor...
 
In regards to the original post, I've got a 1966 Sunfish with the old style rudder. The only times that it has popped out on me have been in 17-18 MPH winds when I'm battling rudder stall trying to work my way upwind. (Boy is that fun to put back in with the waves rolling the boat!) I keep the keel plate as tight as I can so it doesn't move from side to side very much. The nut on the deck plate is only moderately tight with a little play.

Is there any reason to upgrade to the new-style rudder besides the fact that you don't have to worry about it popping out? Is the new style any better at preventing rudder stall? The newer style looks like it has a lot more surface area in the water than the old. There is no Sunfish fleet on my lake, so I don't plan to do any racing, but rudder stall has always made sailing upwind in anything over 16 MPH a battle. I suppose I could rig the sail with outhaul and cunningham to depower it a little before I go out in those winds... but then I'd miss the ab workout.:)
 
15 knots is the practical limit for the old style rudder. Not much you can do to improve that limit. I retrofitted several old style boats, not with the new hardware but just the new style blade when the old "ping pong paddle shaped" one broke. It takes a little work but all the hardware fits the new style improved blade.
In fact since they weren't used for racing I dropped them down from the almost horizontal "normal" position to almost vertical. Now that REALLY helped. Sculling when the wind died was just about immposible but the boat was a LOT better in tacks,gybes and in general overall sailing ability under all wind conditions.
But the rudder would still pop out at about 15 knots. Even a jens rig wouldn't raise that limit. So it wasn't a function of depowering the rig
 

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