Getting T-boned on Port

mackconsult

Member
There is this idiot at our Sailing club. I mistakenly tryed to cross him on Port and didn't make it in my brand new boat. He proceeds to head up and hit me in my quarter section. Shouldn't he get DSQed?????

I am the one who does the scoring and I am giving myself a DSQ for making the mistake, but I am half tempted to give him a DSQ because he could have ducked me and just said protest.
 
The fundamental rule in sailing is to avoid collisions, he still has to avoid you even on starboard. He should have ducked your transom and yelled protest.
 
There is this idiot at our Sailing club. I mistakenly tryed to cross him on Port and didn't make it in my brand new boat. He proceeds to head up and hit me in my quarter section. Shouldn't he get DSQed?????

I am the one who does the scoring and I am giving myself a DSQ for making the mistake, but I am half tempted to give him a DSQ because he could have ducked me and just said protest.


I suggest you start by reading rule 63.1 and then 14
 
From the "facts" given why would 16.1 be involved?

It would apply if the contact would not have occurred had the RoW boat not headed up. I'm assuming 181255 had no chance to avoid the contact. If the RoW boat headed up in an attempt to avoid contact, he has breached neither 16.1 nor 14. But it sounds like he was hunting.
 
Without hearing both side it is difficult to sort this out.

From what 181255 wrote he admitted he did not keep clear prior to the collision. "I mistakenly tried to cross him on Port". So without any additional facts one should not assume "hunting" was involved.

What I find interesting is that 181255 did not immediately do a penalty turn in this instance and waited until the end of the race to DSQ himself.

BTW instead of a DSQ it could have been a RAF though a RAF is intended to be used when someone finds out later that they had broken a rule which does not appear to be the case here.
 
Unfortunately for you, 14(b) comes into play:

"shall not be penalized under this rule unless there is contact that causes damage or injury."

If he hit you but did not damage the boat and caused no injury, it's just you that scores the DSQ. I know many racers that will give you a light tap in light airs to make sure that you do your turns. I just try to take fewer chances around them :rolleyes:
 
This was no light tap. It was "CRUNCH T-BONE"!!!!!

Light taps happen in overlaps, going around marks or in leeward windward situations. T-Boning causes damage in almost any breeze. My boat was new (194717 I think) and now it has a hunk of gel coat taken out of it.

You guys should have seen the heated argument after wards where I stood in my boat in front of 20 other sailors swearing up and down at him for hitting me. And he yelled at me saying its your fault for trying to cross me.

I took the DSQ upon myself while scoring the results because this occurred just before finishing across the line. My mistake was not filing a protest right away with the race committee for him hitting me.
 
I don't know about giving him a DSQ, but as to the damages, most races have you sign a waiver that makes it so you have to pay for any damages that happen during the races.
 
A chunk of gel-coat certainly constitutes damage in my books! Not only did he break rule 14(b), but he should be paying for the repair. That's just not cool.
 
Your SIs will state a time limit for filing of protests.

There's a form that must be followed -- you must say the word "PROTEST!" not "hey!" or "Do your turns" or "that's not cool" or even !@#$#!!!

And there's a time limit during which a filled out protest form must be submitted to the protest comittee.

So with none of that done, sounds like water under the bridge.

That being said, let's analyze solely from your description:

"I mistakenly tried to cross him on Port and didn't make it ... He proceeds to head up and hit me in my quarter section."

See the definition in the RRS of "keep clear." From your "didn't make it" it sounds like you as burdened boat did NOT keep clear.

However, the privileged vessel also has obligations, and may not sail anywhere she chooses. Rule 16.1 speaks to this. As S and P begin to come together, S may change her course any way she chooses, and may use tactical considerations in deciding what to do -- e.g. foot for speed, pinch up to make it more difficult for P to cross cleanly, follow a lift, etc...

That freedom begins to change as the boats get closer together, and 16.1 begins to apply.

Let's consider the case where P can cross S cleanly, assuming S holds course. At this point, P is "keeping clear" of S. Now at some point, P will be crossing in front of S's bow; from this position P cannot possibly avoid S should S choose to head up to deliberately hit P. At this point, S's actions are restricted by 16.1. S may not change course to deliberately strike P, when such a move by S would make it impossible for P to avoid S. If S does this, she has broken 16.1.

Now, the difference between a rule 10 and a rule 16.1 situation can be hard to tell, and in general protest committees will tend to accept S's version of the facts if there's a protest or a collision on a P/S crossing. Too many boats try to "squeek by" on port creating a hazardous condition on the racecourse. So if P knows it will be close, she should either duck early, tack to lee bow S, or ask permission to cross. (Sometimes S will simply wave P on, rather than risk being planted with a tight lee-bow.)

Based on your description, there's a bit of question about what "actually happened" and if I were in a protest-committee hearing, I'd try to ask some more detailed questions, get some diagrams and models, etc... to try and get a more accurate picture.

For example, did S actually steer up? Or did she simply roll to windward as she sailed into the lee of your main as you began to cross?

But based purely on one side of the story and what you've written, I'd expect a protest committee to DSQ both boats, P for violating rule 10, and S for violating both 16.1 and 14.
 
There are two trains of though IMHO.

1. Is the bloke just learning, not real clue but a little bit of information is too much for him knowing he was on starboard. If this was the case and it wasnt a major race, then I would approach him tell him that you could DSQ him fo not avoiding a collision that caused damage and leave it at that.

2. He knew what he was doing he is not a uselss sailor just a idiot, then DSQ him (and tell him why) and then give him the bill to pay.

End of the day you need to remember brand new boat or not you were in the wrong for being there. You cant rely on him (or anyone) avoiding you.
 
Maybe in future ask if you can cross when its close like that. A simple hail of CROSS? usually gets a response of carry on or no you tack. More often than not the person on starboard lets you cross as all you'll do if you tack that close is leebow them anyway.
There will always be a few people that will never let you cross, learn who they are and that will help you decide what to do when meeting them.
 
Good luck with trying to get him to foot the bill for the repair..

You really shouldnt have put yourself in that position to begin with and you were both in the wrong so you should be paying for your own repairs
 
Port is port, new boat or not.

Protests are clearly defined, so the "scorer" has no option to DSQ anyone because he/she feels like it.

"Yelling" at starboard? Huh? Sounds foolish to me, and not quite sportsmanlike.

Bashing starboard on the World Wide Web? real classy.

Al Russell
 
How do you know he saw you in time to do anything? He was heading up when contact was made. Was he trying to crash tack to avoid the collision? Was there any discussion between you and him before contact was made or were you just trying to get across nice and quiet like?

Where did the contact occur? What were the conditions? If it happened far enough up, (toward the bow) on your boat that would help determine if he had the chance to do an emergency duck or not.

It's hard to get a Laser to make a BIG duck when it is blowing even for experienced sailors.
 
Having been in a similar situation myself when i was confortably clearing the starboard boat then a windshift when and sent it all awry. Now in my case the SB boat heads up and proceeds to hurl abuse at me. After the race a calmly showed him rule 16.2 which governs right of way boat changing course. He was a little sheepish after that.

Regardsless of anything else ALL boats are duty bound by COLREGS (which override RRS in some areas) which say a collision should be prevented if it can be.

So my conclusion...

The guy on Port was in the wrong and should have taken a penalty (I believe even if it is right on the line you can still take the turns and then re-cross the line, possibly best to make the RO aware of what you have done). The guy on Startboard if he headed up and hit you on the rear quarter was also in the wrong and should also have required (the first word from your mouth should have been Protest, nothing less will suffice or the Protest Committee can throw it out on a technicality). This way when you get ashore you can quite legitimately fill out your protest form, depending on facts found he may be liable for your reapir costs (most insurance companies will not even entertain a blame on damage when racing unless there is a protest).
 
Try to avoid contact at all costs, the collision will have cost you time & totally wrecked your concentration probably for the day. The repair you will always see will be your reminder that not everyone thinks on the water the same way you may.
 
What ever dude!!!!!

I didn't say I wasn't in the wrong, but if I got hit for every time I was wrong I would quit this sport.

I am giving myself a DSQ for that race. I have asked the fleet captain to approach this indivdual about withdrawing from the race. If he doesn't I will file a protest. This is feasible in our club because there is no time windows in the by laws in which to file a protest.

Port is port, new boat or not.

Protests are clearly defined, so the "scorer" has no option to DSQ anyone because he/she feels like it.

"Yelling" at starboard? Huh? Sounds foolish to me, and not quite sportsmanlike.

Bashing starboard on the World Wide Web? real classy.

Al Russell
 
Maybe in future ask if you can cross when its close like that. A simple hail of CROSS? usually gets a response of carry on or no you tack. More often than not the person on starboard lets you cross as all you'll do if you tack that close is leebow them anyway.
There will always be a few people that will never let you cross, learn who they are and that will help you decide what to do when meeting them.

I did
 
Don't hail "tack or cross", it's not a proper hail and it's only going to tick you off when you think you deserve a response and you don't get it from some guy who knows better than to respond to that hail.

As for your situation, what you can't account for is if this guy thought that heading up, i.e. tacking, was the right thing to do to avoid collision. He may have been just as surprised as you were about the close crossing or maybe he thought you were going to tack for the line (since you said it was at the finish) and he was surprised to see your bow cross his and so he threw the helm over.
 
What ever dude!!!!!

I didn't say I wasn't in the wrong, but if I got hit for every time I was wrong I would quit this sport.

I am giving myself a DSQ for that race. I have asked the fleet captain to approach this indivdual about withdrawing from the race. If he doesn't I will file a protest. This is feasible in our club because there is no time windows in the by laws in which to file a protest.

Did you ever say protest? Did he say protest? That's the first step before having a hearing. I also believe the RRS states time frames for hearings and/or filings. Your club, (assuming you are in the US) should at least follow the RRS.

You can always with draw from the race, but don't DSQ yourself. No one can be DSQ'd without a hearing. Sounds like to me he has a case for attempting to avoid the collison by heading up. He could say he was trying to tack.

That said, you have not answered several questions on the forum regarding the incident so it's impossible to tell how everything went down and/or give any decent advice as there are so many variables in even the most cut and dry protest situations.
 
Don't hail "tack or cross", it's not a proper hail and it's only going to tick you off when you think you deserve a response and you don't get it from some guy who knows better than to respond to that hail.

As for your situation, what you can't account for is if this guy thought that heading up, i.e. tacking, was the right thing to do to avoid collision. He may have been just as surprised as you were about the close crossing or maybe he thought you were going to tack for the line (since you said it was at the finish) and he was surprised to see your bow cross his and so he threw the helm over.

I think hailing "tack or cross" is a good tool, but it has no place in the rules. However, there are many times a Starboard tacker will let you cross to keep you from tacking on top of them or giving them a lee bow. If it looks like I can cross very close or with just a small adjustment from the starboard tacker I'll ask "tack or cross?". When I don't get a reply I stick a stinking lee bow on them. There are plenty of times I'll shout for a guy to cross if I don't want them tacking on me...
 
Rob

That's what I was referring to, there is no place in the rules for that hail. You can't take that one to the protest room, I've heard it before, I was in the protest room and the other boat told the Jury that he hailed our boat to tack or cross and we didn't reply, he made it sounds like we broke the rules by not responding. Well, I told our skipper not to reply to it because it opens up a can of worms. We won the protest.

If you are port and you are sure you can cross and they won't duck you and protest, go for it. If not and you lee bow them, then they deserve to be behind you. It's pretty straightforward.
 
This was no light tap. It was "CRUNCH T-BONE"!!!!!



You guys should have seen the heated argument after wards where I stood in my boat in front of 20 other sailors swearing up and down at him for hitting me.

There is a rule that can deal with that issue.

After reading what you have written here I would suggest your club put together two seminars.

1 - Rules seminar taught by a senior judge
http://www.ussailing.org/judges/OfficialsSearch.asp?Official=Judge

2 - Race management seminar.- http://www.ussailing.org/Calendar/r...lass=&FROM=&WEEK=OFF&TO=&KEYWORD=&byOA=Search
 
This was no light tap. It was "CRUNCH T-BONE"!!!!!

You guys should have seen the heated argument after wards where I stood in my boat in front of 20 other sailors swearing up and down at him for hitting me. And he yelled at me saying its your fault for trying to cross me.

Were I party to that then i would have reported you to your clum commodore (or whatever you have over your side of the pond). There is no place for that kind of conduct in sailing. The rules are there to govern what we can an cant do. There is a rule about fair sailing and being 'sportsmanlike' I blieve it is either Rule 2 or Rule 69 (don;t have a rule book to hand). As this was after the finish you are not governed by these but balling him out in front of everyone when you were on port is wrong even if you had grounds to protest.

As annoying as a collision is you have to try and keep your head, the boat is insured and will be repaired no matter what the cirucmstances it is just a case of who was right and who was wrong.

Are you going to clarify some of the questions asked on here? If you were in the wrong why did you not take your penalty? You can still protest even if you take a penaly (just means you cannot be DSQ'd in most circumstances).
 
What ever dude!!!!!

I didn't say I wasn't in the wrong, but if I got hit for every time I was wrong I would quit this sport.

I am giving myself a DSQ for that race. I have asked the fleet captain to approach this indivdual about withdrawing from the race. If he doesn't I will file a protest. This is feasible in our club because there is no time windows in the by laws in which to file a protest.


Sounds to me like he headed up to avoid T-Boning you. A t-bone is 90 degrees and if he headed up it was less of a hit thank goodness. I have headed up many times to avoid collisions or to make them casue less damage. You broke the rules did not protest him properly regardless of time limits and you should be considered for rule 69 for your poor sportsmanship in front of others. Just end it now. And keep away from him when you are on port. By the way, my feeling could be different if you had properly protested him and followed through and had him tossed. Otherwise your story does not hold water.
 
Thinking back on it I had a similar situation a few years ago. I tacked in front of a guy inside the 2 length circle while rounding a weather mark. We had an adverse current that was pushing all boats to weather of the mark. Under the rule you can tack within the 2 length circle so long as the approaching Starboard tack boat does not have to sail above close hauled to avoid you or pass the mark, (of course assuming you do not tack too close and he has to avoid you before your tack is completed). So, I complete my tack and begin to bear away for the mark. He's screaming at me and I look back to see him coming at me on a close reach and he slams, (on purpose) into my stern. Well, I go nuts and while I do not insult him I do let a few non-mentionables slip out along with the "you %$^&**ing sailed straight into me, on a @@#$!!!ing reach and long after I completed my ***$$@!*ing tack. PROTEST!".

While he attempts to argue back a puff comes in from behind and rolls him right over to weather. I then shout, "A vertical 720 will work just as well!" and I sail off.

He did cause some minor damage and at the end of the race while we are de-rigging I approach him and offer a beer and an apology for using the bad language. We talk about the incident, (where he admits hitting me on purpose to proove a point) along with a couple of other witnisses and it is concluded he was in the wrong. However, it all went down level headed and we departed much cooler.

This was a club race and since he went upside down I did not file a formal protest. If I had I think he would have tried the 69 thing on me, (as he mentioned he was upset that I used foul language) but a 69 is difficult to win. If you look at the very few on those that have been handed out over the past few years, (everyone of them is posted on US Sailing because you get banned for 2 years if you get one) you will notice they involved some pretty major stuff like boarding a boat and actually beating on someone!

Bottom line. Get past it. Talk to the guy and use the incident to grow on. Don't be a punk.
 
If you look at the very few on those that have been handed out over the past few years, (everyone of them is posted on US Sailing because you get banned for 2 years if you get one) you will notice they involved some pretty major stuff like boarding a boat and actually beating on someone!

Bottom line. Get past it. Talk to the guy and use the incident to grow on. Don't be a punk.

They don't publish the warnings that are given out by the locals, PC, etc that many times result in an RAF or a warning from club management or class peer group..

I n many of these cases it is not the first incident of innaporpriate behavior.
 
He was not in the process of tacking. He hit me and spun me around .....

Don't hail "tack or cross", it's not a proper hail and it's only going to tick you off when you think you deserve a response and you don't get it from some guy who knows better than to respond to that hail.

As for your situation, what you can't account for is if this guy thought that heading up, i.e. tacking, was the right thing to do to avoid collision. He may have been just as surprised as you were about the close crossing or maybe he thought you were going to tack for the line (since you said it was at the finish) and he was surprised to see your bow cross his and so he threw the helm over.
 
He was not in the process of tacking. He hit me and spun me around .....

There is this idiot at our Sailing club. I mistakenly tryed to cross him on Port and didn't make it in my brand new boat. He proceeds to head up and hit me in my quarter section.


Your last post conflicts with your first. Did he head up or not? Either way I hope you are learning something from what the rest of us are saying here.
 

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