Class Politics Free membership and a $200 annual check>>>

gouvernail

Super Opinionated and Always Correct
This is in response to the article in the Summer edition of The Laser Sailor.

Please !! Let's try to keep this positive and perhaps limit this thread to just suggestions for positions political or of advocacy contributors might want our NA Class (and maybe the ILCA) to take with respect to parts, replica parts, and all that.

So..First off let me make points for that which the article left me believing was Tracy's side of the discussion.

When describing where the money goes and defending why Class Legal sails cost $400 more than Intensity sails Tracy left out the money that goes to the ISAF for the buttons and any royalty fees collected by the ILCA.
He left me with the impression the entire $400 is being pocketed by the builders.
That part of the $400 which is sent to ILCA and the ISAF is not being pocketed by the builders.


Second part...Stuff left out of the why Class legal sails ought to be less expensive than anything any competitor could manufacture

1. The sailmakers for class legal sails have a GUARANTEED and PREDICTABLE market. They can take the evidence for same to the bank and borrow money against the predicted and guaranteed production. They KNOW each and every year there will be 10,000 sails to be made. That guaranteed market allows for investment and planned production and planned staffing and all sorts of great things a fly by night wannabe replica sailmaker does not have.
2. The fly by night replica maker MUST spend money to advertise and find purchasers for 100% of its sales. The class legal suppliers have thousands of guaranteed purchases before they even begin to need to do any marketing what so ever.
3. The class willingly forces thousands of customers to purchase legal sails. The replica sailmaker is refused access to the majority of the market simply because its sails are not allowed to participate in most of the events were new sails matter the very most.


I believe a good look at the books would reveal our class legal suppliers could ( except for the price of ISAF buttons and whatever royalty is paid to ILCA) sell Laser sails for LESS than any replica builder while taking in a larger percentage of funds above and beyond the cost of doing business.

In fact, if that is not the case, I sure would love to know why the stockholders for our builders and sailmakers would tolerate such gross ineffeciency.

Regardless of how the exact funding and expense trail shakes out, I sure don't see why the Laser Class members ought to silently tolerate being charged $400 more PER SAIL for a product that is nearly impossible to distinguish from that which is offered by the replica sail sellers.

So, here I get myself into the fundamental philosophy part of my reasons for posting this message and starting this thread.

I believe the ILCA should serve many roles. There is information all over the web about that which I believe and I am certain many are sick and tired of my constant ranting about "I DON"T LIKE WHERE THE CLASS IS HEADED!!!"


BUT>>>

The fact is, aside from the organizational aaspects of gathering information about Laser sailing and distributing it to those who might need it, and it's role as the organizing authority that keeps our sport as a clearly defined game...there is the "consumer advocacy union of members standing for our rights against those who would exploit us" part of the Laser Class Association which I find to be less than adequately performed by our current set of "representatives."

As Vice President of the North American Laser Class and later when I served as both a Vice President and the paid position NA Executive Secretary, I used to call Vanguard's owner and President Chip Johnsr and say, "Now you know Chip , I want Vanguard to sell a ton of boats and make a ton of money so I can play with the owners of those boats and know there is a great solid company where my friends and I can go to buy more toys and even find warranty service.....BUT..."

..And following BUT would come my "you guys are not serving us fairly" gripe.

When Vanguard came out with a set of soft sails, I , as a representative of the membership, would call Chip and do my best to encourage him to tighten his quality control. "I want to tell sailors to go buy your new sails but I cannot tell them to buy rags made of soft cloth that won't even set up right on day one."
Chip kndw I sold a lot of boats for him and he listened. We both wanted teh same thing to happen. We wanted millions of people to want brand new lasers. we were untimately on teh same side. We wanted to be able to tell buyers of vanguard's toys, "Vanguiard has a great deal for you"

When ther deal; was not there, I took it upon myself as a representative of teh membership to seek a solution."

I ant our Clas officers to do a lot more consumer advocasy than I am aware is happening.
Simply, I just didn't feel like Tracy's article was slanted far enough to the consumer side of the replica issue.

I am positive Tracy knows exactly what he wants!!! I am pretty damned certain he knows what we need.

I think Tracy has a lot of clout he could use for the consumer and I would love to see him confidelty wield it.

Maybe others don't agree. I was tossed out for some reason and it certainly wasn't lack of organization or lack of class association growth.

regardless>>>

Were I in a "Laser Class Government " position today I would be telling the builders our position, "We can continue to advocate having builder supplied sails only as long as your prices reflect the help we give you in marketing your products. It is absurd that your sails cost us more than those for which we share NONE of the marketing chores. The class legal sails should cost us less than those made by suppliers for whom we do not guaranee a market. Excuses about your route from rolls of cloth to sails on boats can go only so far. There is simply no acceptable excuse for charging those of us who voluntarily agree to purchase only from you $400 more per sail than those who benefit financially from no such guarantees. It is extremely difficult to convince our membership the difference in price is anything other than greedy businesssmen taking advantage of a situation. Many Laser sailors feel the long term loyalty of the association membership is being used against us rather than being rewarded."

As an officer of the association I would currently be asking for a lot of input and political sales efforts from the builders and sailmakers. Somebody neeeds to explain the reaoson for that additional $400 to the individual members. It is time for those who are taking $400 per sail from us to describe to us how that $400 is being well spent and how that spending of that $400 is benefitting us.

If there are 10,000 new Class legal Laser sails being purchased every year, the difference between that which we are paying and Intensity's price those same 10,000 sails is FOUR MILLION DOLLARS..

NO wait!! The difference could be more as Intensity would no longer need to purchase advertising in the NA Newsletter and on its website to make customers aware those sails are available. Intensity might furthere lower its prices as it enjoyed theper item savings related to building another 10,000 sails per year.

Yes. I do believe our Laser Class Association officers should be doing a tad of asking questions about where that money is going and by doing so advocating for the membership they represent. .

If there are $15,000 worldwide members and we could be saving $400 per sail that is $266 per member.

It is a big deal.

One solution:
If the Class sanctioned sail price is to remain at $600

I would be happy to accept free membership for all those who ask and and a $200 check each year for those who attend a minimum of one sanctioned Laser class event in exchange for ILCA support of required use of North or Hyde sails for all Laser sailboat contests.


Assuming all 15,000 members sailed at least one event and sales remained stagnant at 10,000 sails. Our builders would have $400,000 to use to manage and distribute the funds.
If membership numbers incresed sail sales would certainly increase at a greater rate.
And if the $400 per sail sold fund was not sufficient we could renegotiate. As teh sailmakers and builders have been pocketing $4,000,000 per annum for many many years there should be no need to rush to adjust if they dip into their reserves for a few years.

I believe that offer to our builders and sailmakers might be a great place to start.
 
The fact is, aside from the organizational aspects of gathering information about Laser sailing and distributing it to those who might need it, and its role as the organizing authority that keeps our sport as a clearly defined game...there is the "consumer advocacy union of members standing for our rights against those who would exploit us" part of the Laser Class Association which I find to be less than adequately performed by our current set of "representatives."

I hear you, Fred. Well said. I finished reading Tracy's article shaking my head, thinking "I'm not convinced." The chain of distribution might have made sense in the previous century, but times have changed. Particularly in the current recession, people such as Laser sailors are watching their expenditures more carefully than ever. Every industry is feeling the squeeze, and most are responding with lower prices just to keep enough sales to stay in business. Competition in the marketing of products is a good thing.

Our dealers are squeezed also. The ones I know well stock and sell sails as a necessity, not because sails help their bottom line. We, as an International Class, need to do better. Perhaps it is time for our NA reps to step up and rock the boat. The current distribution chain is way too comfortable for the 21st century.

Eric Robbins
 
I'm not sure what, if anything, this accomplishes given the fact you can't even buy a new sail whether Hyde or North. I've been on the "waiting list" since before the Gulf Coast Championship and still no light at the end of the tunnel.

Mike
 
Here is an example of the value of dealers:

I spent last week in the Columbia River Gorge participating in the annual Gorge Clinic (an excellent clinic run by Steve Bourdow this year), the Gorge Blowout (see some pics here, the real video hopefully coming soon) and then the Masters' PCC's. At the end of day one of the clinic I broke my trusty bottom section (that I had been using for 9 years). I got back to the beach, pulled out the stump, walked up to the local dealer's on-site trailer and said "I need a bigger one of these." Moments later I walked back to my boat with a shiny new bottom section. I lost a total of 20 minutes of sailing time in the clinic.

The Gorge Blowout was literally that, we were blown off the water at the halfway point. Plenty of damage. The local dealer was at the site on Friday with a complete tool kit and spent the day fixing broken stuff, from new rivets in masts to fixing the damage to a hull which came in too close contact with rocks. Lots of happy sailors by friday afternoon. That same dealer had two people on the race committee that weekend, helping to make sure that the races were run.

Can you get that sort of extra service over the internet? Would I have been able to order a new spar over the internet on monday evening and go sailing tuesday morning?

I will 100% agree that if Laser were starting today we might have a completely different distribution model with a different pricing (though I would still contend it could not match the replica parts people), etc., and we might be used to dealing with less in terms of extra service, etc. Of course, it might also be that we wouldn't have 200,000 Lasers worldwide either. Certainly we have yet to see a more modern single handed boat challenge the Laser - even given the perceived potential price differential.
 
In reading the above, I have to say that its disappointing to hear that some people don't think the Laser Class advocates for its members when, in fact, a great deal of ILCA's effort goes to just that. In my opinion, advocating for the members doesn't mean waiting until there is a problem and then jumping up and down yelling, but instead it means working to identify sources of issues and rectifying them so that they won't happen to begin with. For example, over the past ten years the Technical and Measurement Committee and, in particular, the Technical Officer (employed by ILCA, answerable to ILCA, directed by ILCA, a Laser sailor, etc.), has worked hard to tighten specifications in the Laser Construction Manual, run regular inspections of the builders and sailmakers to not only insure compliance with the manual but also to look for areas where further improvements can be made, tolerances tightened, etc. Thanks to the hard work of a number of people, some paid, but most volunteers, I believe the average Laser built today is more similar around the world and of significantly better quality than the boats built a decade or more ago. The work is not done, there are still issues and there is a lengthy agenda for the TMC meeting with the builders before the WC meeting in September. The point is that the Laser Class does advocate for its membership (another very good reason to be a member) even if it's not being constantly trumpeted on anonymous internet forums.
 
How does this change the fact that my local dealer in the 4th largest city in the country can't get me a new standard Laser sail? (and hasn't been able to for months)

Mike
 
How does this change the fact that my local dealer in the 4th largest city in the country can't get me a new standard Laser sail? (and hasn't been able to for months)

Mike

I think that's a whole different subject, you might want to start a new topic on that. But I agree, LP is sucking when it comes to getting parts out currently.
 
How does this change the fact that my local dealer in the 4th largest city in the country can't get me a new standard Laser sail? (and hasn't been able to for months)

Mike

While not the same issue as what started this thread, obviously not decoupled. LP obviously has a pretty serious supply issue they are dealing with (we're told). Any statement past that would be pure speculation on my part as would, unfortunately, any prediction on resolution.

However, this emphasizes that its the dealers who are getting screwed right now - on both ends. They're losing business to the copy manufacturers on the one side, while on the other they're losing business because they can't get product right at the peak of the sailing season. In my opinion, its the dealers we should worry about, not the builder. If the current builder were to vanish another would appear nearly instantly. Enthusiastic dealers out supporting local events are much more difficult to replace.

Having said all of that, there ARE dealers in North America who have sails (and parts) so it is possible to get stuff. While I would normally advocate buying locally when possible, I'd offer that buying class legal is the next best thing.
 
Fellas,

Not to be argumentative, but Fred's thread is about the premium we pay for class legal SAILS. My comment was that we are paying a premium for something I apparently can't get. You would think that if there is $400 profit in the sail alone, the suppliers of that sail would make sure there were plenty to go around. Same goes for other class legal items; I'm sure the cost to manufacture and market are about one fifth the selling price. This environment is created by you and me, the Laser sailor.

Mike Lindstrom
 
Fellas,

Not to be argumentative, but Fred's thread is about the premium we pay for class legal SAILS. My comment was that we are paying a premium for something I apparently can't get. You would think that if there is $400 profit in the sail alone, the suppliers of that sail would make sure there were plenty to go around. Same goes for other class legal items; I'm sure the cost to manufacture and market are about one fifth the selling price. This environment is created by you and me, the Laser sailor.

Mike Lindstrom

Yes but remember the suppliers of the sails are not LP, it's North or Hyde. LP has to buy them from the sailmakers.
 
I understand that but thanks for pointing it out. Would you care to wager on where the delivery issues stem? I'll bet it has nothing to do with Hyde or North being too booked up to make an adequate supply of Laser sails. My guess would be the ability of LP to pay their bills.

Mike Lindstrom
 
Yes but remember the suppliers of the sails are not LP, it's North or Hyde. LP has to buy them from the sailmakers.

Sails are not the only thing that was or is in short supply the past few months, blades were also hard to come by in North America. There were a number of dealers in this area who were delivered new "complete" boats from LP that were missing various items
 
I understand that but thanks for pointing it out. Would you care to wager on where the delivery issues stem? I'll bet it has nothing to do with Hyde or North being too booked up to make an adequate supply of Laser sails. My guess would be the ability of LP to pay their bills.

Mike Lindstrom


ding ding ding.
 
I understand that but thanks for pointing it out. Would you care to wager on where the delivery issues stem? I'll bet it has nothing to do with Hyde or North being too booked up to make an adequate supply of Laser sails. My guess would be the ability of LP to pay their bills.

Mike Lindstrom

Most likely.

Sails are not the only thing that was or is in short supply the past few months, blades were also hard to come by in North America. There were a number of dealers in this area who were delivered new "complete" boats from LP that were missing various items

Yep I had some stuff on order and took forever to get and had to wait on parts on things that were supposedly complete. Makes you also wonder why they started chartering boats with spars and hull only, nothing else. Makes it even harder to go to events when you need to ship everything to the venue in order to sail.
 
Our local dealer has had two or three boats for several months that he cannot sell because they are incomplete including blades and sails. He also has been billed for complete boats. I was told by sailors at the NAs that this was common all over the US.

Mike
 
Gentlemen...
MY gripe is the builders are marking up the sails by a lot.

The dealers don't have a very big margin. The dealers don't make much selling sails.

The reason there are so few dealers is the fact selling Lasers at the retail level is not a particularly lucrative business. The overhead is large and the markup is not very big and the volume is not all that big.

The builders have taken that which was conceived as an affordable boat for Joe Everybody and slowly changed it into a rather expensive toy with absurdly expensive replacement parts.

It would not irritate me if the builders marked up our parts 10% on the way past. it would not bother me if the builders announced a $50 tax on sails to be used to promote the game. I heclass in the budgeting process. .

The fact is the builders are grabbing somewhere around $400 on each replacement sail.

As an association of sailors I would like to see us look around and see who else would like to make sails "just like the ones we currently purchase from the builders" and if there is such a supplier, present the dealers with an ultimatum to either bring their prices down to an appropriate level or lose their exclusive rights to supply our game.

Further if the builders pull a stunt like they did in 1993 where they change the size and shape of their dealer supplied sails in an attempt to make our sails obsolete ( as they did in 1993) we should simply ban the dealer supplied sails from the course.
I mam not writing about teh change to 3.8 oz cloth. I am describing teh difference between North built 3.8 oz sails and Haarstick built 3.8 oz sails. The builders and North decided to make the 1993 North sails a couple square feet larger than the 1989 to 1992 Haarstick built sails. .)

Now...More reasonably... Threats and boycotts are not the place to start. The place to begin is with discussion. The time and place is the world council meeting. The presentation is simple.
IF AND ONLY IF THERE IS AN INTERESTED SUPPLIER>>>

We ask the builders, would you like to supply sails to the sailors at a price more similar to "this sailmaker" or would you like us to put a rules change vote out to our membership which would allow the class to designate a second supplier other than the builder network?

Currently we have no leverage. We have no real offer from elsewhere.

It is past time to suggest to the builders, "It is quite possible your business model is destroying the game and the sales of Lasers the game would otherwise generate.

Seriously, I am interested in the game. My bet is Walmart could sell the Laser for under $2000 and perhaps under $1000.

Of course they would soon drop he Laser for lack of volume.
 
IF AND ONLY IF THERE IS AN INTERESTED SUPPLIER>>>

There are - in practice, in the real world and already out on the water. Over the last few years I have moved around a bit and thus changed clubs as well and every club I have been a member of allows non-legal sails and many members use non class legal sails. Every mid-week/weekend race they are out there on the water. And they stand out very clearly; loads of them. And as I begin to think a might need a new ail next year, so everybody tells me to keep my existing one for "special events" and buy a "training sail" for normal club racing.

In my experience, whatever members think or want to happen has already largely happened and the process is well underway and continuing fast.

Ian
 
While not the same issue as what started this thread, obviously not decoupled. LP obviously has a pretty serious supply issue they are dealing with (we're told). Any statement past that would be pure speculation on my part as would, unfortunately, any prediction on resolution.

Tracy,

I re-read Fred's original post and find that it's all about the sail and the fact that it's too expensive for what it is. I agreed with him on that comment. I don't think it's a personal attack on you or the current governing body, just an observation of what could be. :eek:

With that said, our class is alive and well thanks to people like you who take their personal time to do what most of us don't want to. Thank you.

I feel Fred has a valid point of view and that if we're not careful with the current supplier, things could get ugly. I have read that there are issues with LP that might not go away. If that were the case there not only will be no sails, but nothing else as well. This is not just a NA issue; it's an international issue if no one can get boats.

I don't think, as an association, it's a bad idea to show our hand to the current players and let them know that we have options.

ML
 
There isn't much new in the original post, if you go back thru this forum and the old listserv, we sailors have been complaining about the "value" of the sail (cost vs how long it lasts) for many years.

The following from Gouv is the only new idea I've come across in a long time.
>>>We ask the builders, would you like to supply sails to the sailors at a price more similar to "this sailmaker" or would you like us to put a rules change vote out to our membership which would allow the class to designate a second supplier other than the builder network?<<<

Interesting, but comes with it own additional complications, and I still believe if the builders see falling revenue from a change like that, they will just raise the price of new boats/other parts to make up for the lost revenue. Remember, they still have a monoply on most everything else..
 
This disucssion makes me think the extra $400 per sail truly was keeping the builders afloat financially.
 
IF LP are not making a stupid margin on sails (and lots of other parts) can someone please xplain to me how they are suddently able to offer almost 50% idscount when you do a bulk order of 3 or more sails?

I have also heard of a LP sales rep stating that they can match or beat the price of any replica out there on the market.....

My 2p (I am un the UK) is that for far too long they have held the prices high. Now that replica parts (especially sails) have become a huge issue they are seeing their sales volumes plummet of 'consumable' items that in the past has been 'a nice little earner'.

Had they taken the longer term view of 'OK we accept the sail is sh*t and does not realistically last more than a season or 2' and dropped the price to something sensible then a lot more people would still be buying class legal (myself included) and they would be shifting more in terms of volume (economies of scale on production et al) and probably making a similar amount of overall profit (just a smaller margin per item).

Like many others I know of I use a replica or training sail for my local racing. I do have a genuine sail which I use when I travel to open events or regattas and I do try to ensure my boat is 100% legal at all times (sail excepted).

RE the supply issues. There is a lad at my club who is desperate for a new boat, he has been waiting for 4-5 months and has finally got a delivery date. He resorted to buying another boat whilst he was waiting which he is now selling because it took so long. I can only speculate on the reasons for this but I would imagine it is going to be a cashflow related issue at LP. It will be intersting to see what foils his boat comes with....
 
I use an Intensity replica sail for all local club racing and practice and keep 2 class sails for open club events and anything else. The funny thing is the newer class sail, (w/only one regatta on it) is worse than the older class sail w/multiple regattas on it. Quality control at it's best!

The Intensity sail is like a Timex. It takes a lickin' and keeps on tickin'. With the class sails being nearly $ 600.00 US I simply can't afford to dump that much on disposable sails regardless of how it benefits the class....
 
While not the same issue as what started this thread, obviously not decoupled. LP obviously has a pretty serious supply issue they are dealing with (we're told). Any statement past that would be pure speculation on my part as would, unfortunately, any prediction on resolution.

Tracy,

I re-read Fred's original post and find that it's all about the sail and the fact that it's too expensive for what it is. I agreed with him on that comment. I don't think it's a personal attack on you or the current governing body, just an observation of what could be. :eek:

<<< edit snip>>>
ML
Thanks for clarifying that. I consider Tracy to be one of the heroes of sailing period. He cannot do everything. I am certain his "real life job" has suffered in many ways over the last dozen years while he has fanatically done a ton of stuff for Lasering. The jobs related to a 200,000 boat fleet are enormous. NA only has one paid staff member and she is not paid wages appropriate to a real world job of similar responbsability.

I would love to see the class officers generally be much more educated about how the boatbuilding and equipment business operates so they could make very educated requests to our builders about that which we should reasonably expect from our builders.
Personally?? I have have served in positions similar to Tracy's, held the same job as Sherri, run a boat dealership, and built Dinghy sailboats in a company whose division I ran was about the size of what used to be Vanguard.

I have very strong opinions about how things ought to be and I am forever disappointed when anybody whose experience I feel is less complete than my own has the temerity to do other than exactly as I suggest.

There is a tad of tongue in cheek while typing the above, but you can all rest assured I am just as eager to see the success of sailing and Laser sailing as anyone and a huge number of folks like tacy are out there doing everything they can manage to do to support the game I love to play and thecommunity surrounding the game.

Perhaps Tracy would phrase it differently but I always hope he knows we are on the same side...

that would be.

Go to the water, rig, have a blast, go to shore, continue to enjoy the company of the great people with whom we just raced.


End hijack....
Back on subject...

I really wish the fleet would be a little more relutant to be used as "captive customers."

It seems to me we ought to want better leverage to demand accountability for every dime ANYBODY spends that was taken out of our pockets as a prerequisite for playing with each other.

It is awfully hard to put up a decent fight when those uf us who are willing keep stumbling over all the other dogs who are lying on their backs with their feet up.
 
<snip>
Back on subject...

I really wish the fleet would be a little more relutant to be used as "captive customers."

It seems to me we ought to want better leverage to demand accountability for every dime ANYBODY spends that was taken out of our pockets as a prerequisite for playing with each other.

It is awfully hard to put up a decent fight when those uf us who are willing keep stumbling over all the other dogs who are lying on their backs with their feet up.

This is my point....the majority of people who sail boats at club level are voting with their wallets by:

1) Not joining the class association

2) Not buying genuine parts

I can agree with both however I would say buying any other replica part other than a sail is stupid.

The other replica parts that are available could in no way be considered consumable items unlike a sail.

Just my 2p (or 2c)...
 
I'm not sure what, if anything, this accomplishes given the fact you can't even buy a new sail whether Hyde or North. I've been on the "waiting list" since before the Gulf Coast Championship and still no light at the end of the tunnel.

Mike

Do I infer that LP hasn't paid North and Hyde?

If so, that doesn't look too promising for the future of the class...
:eek:
 
Do I infer that LP hasn't paid North and Hyde?

If so, that doesn't look too promising for the future of the class...
:eek:

Looks like an opportunity for a "Black market" for new class sails. Better yet, just let us buy directly from North like other class associations can such as the Finn, Melges, J22's, I could go on.....................
 
With respect to the Standard sail, here is how I see things:

1) The Laser philosophy is that its meant to be a strict one design where all aspects of the boat are tightly controlled making the racing purely a test of sailor skill. This is achieved by limiting the number of builders and sailmakers and constraining them to produce boats and sails in strict compliance with a construction manual. For the sailmakers this means specifying the cloth used, how the panels are cut from the bolts of cloth, how the pieces are put together, etc. In particular, there is not meant to be any room for "tweaking" the design by the supplier of the sails.

2) If we want to have the ability to go to "any" sailmaker for a Laser sail then either
a) we require all sailmakers to strictly conform to the construction manual, -or-
b) we draft sail measurement rules which sailmakers must adhere to when making sails which will give them a certain amount of freedom in how they satisfy the rules (like, for example, in the Star Class).

3) I see two problems with 2(a) above. First, its a compliance nightmare and the Technical Officer could easily spend all of his time running around to inspect sailmakers all over the planet who might be making sails. Secondly, as the number of sailmakers increases the economy of scale decreases, meaning the production cost and, ultimately, retail cost rise. IMHO, I just don't see this as workable and I think the potential for benefit would quickly be overrun by the reality of implementation.

4) If we go with 2(b) then I think we forfeit one of the basic tenets of the Laser philosophy and, personally, I'm just not ready to part with the strict one design principle simply to save a few hundred dollars - especially when, in my opinion, a good fraction of that extra money is coming back to indirectly benefit me (a separate discussion). And remember, currently the replica manufacturers have a vested interest in producing sails with NO difference in performance to the current sails since then they're "just like real Laser sails". But when you change to a sail "measures in" system then sailmakers have a vested interest in producing a faster sail, ESPECIALLY in a market as big as Laser, since it means more business.

5) If the price of the Laser sail is the single driving issue in all of Laserdom, then a potential solution is to convince the builders to allow the sailors to buy direct from the sailmakers. However, there is a big downside here as well - the loss of income to the builders and dealers (see earlier post where it is estimated in the millions of dollars US) will need to be made up somewhere and most likely it will be in higher prices for boats and parts, loss of support for Laser sailing events, sailing in general, etc. I think before going this route one needs to see a real cost benefit analysis so everyone fully understands the implications. Even in the modern internet era there is simply no free lunch.

6) Finally, I just don't think the replica manufacturers are the true model to try to follow because I believe they are benefiting from the system while not actually supporting it - meaning their price is artificially low (sort of like the price of ethanol is artificially low because of federal corn subsidies). Of course, I also agree that the corollary is true: if left to themselves the builders have little interest in deviating from the status-quo and by inertia will simply continue try to maintain the current system.

Given the picture I outlined above, where does that really leave me personally? I would like to see a standard sail solution which:
a) preserves the fundamental philosophy of Laser sailing, which I see as ~2 sailmakers making sails in strict compliance with the Laser Construction Manual, regularly inspected, etc., so that our sails are as identical as possible,
b) preserves, at least here in North America, the dealer network so that we can have local people with a vested interest in promoting Laser sailing giving us the ability to buy sails locally, buy boats which cost the same in California as Rhode Island, promote our local sailing events, etc.,
c) continues to enable the builder to support Laser sailing at the regional and international levels through things like support to the class, providing charter boats to major events, supporting sailing programs, promotion, etc.,
d) does not lead to an increase in the pricing of the boat and its parts,
e) yet still addresses the core problems with the standard sail, in particular produces a sail that people think is worth the money they are spending on it.

As we all know, a program aimed more or less at the above is in progress, though even I think it has entered a phase where time is measured in geologic scales... (enter here a page full of highly frustrated smilies). Its worth adding in this thread that this program is mainly driven by the Laser class and Laser sailors and is not some backroom builder take-it-or-leave-it program.
 
Don't know if anyone read the front page of Sailing Anarchy today (7/28/2010), but a rather timely post on sails in the Finn Class today. Its interesting since the Finn Class is probably one of the most comparable classes to the Laser - both are singlehanded, both in the Olympics, both sailed worldwide, both with strong masters participation, etc. I'll cut and paste the article here:

Quantum Sails in San Diego is one of those special lofts that is always challenging itself. I have had the privilege of being able to get to know the guys and work with them on coming up with a new design for, and then building a Finn sail. Over a few meetings with Mark Reynolds and George Szabo we came up with the idea of seeing what it would take to break into the Finn class with a new sail. The loft has been successful in the other heavy weight men's Olympic class, the Star, and we are planning the same approach with the Finn.

We looked around the loft and found a Mylar pattern from one of Marks previous designs, back when they used Aluminum masts and Dacron sails. Since this obviously would not do, George got stuck into designing a new Finn main with the computer, essentially from scratch, over the next few weeks. With much kibitzing between Mark, George, Eric and I we finally got a shape that we were happy with. The next step was to stick the design into the plotter and get it to cut out a test sail in paper (this way you are not wasting expensive sail cloth if there is something wrong with the design that could not be seen in the computer model of the sail). With a few minor tweaks and tunes to the paper sails we were happy that the sizing and shape was spot on within the Finn class rules. Once this step was completed we were able to plot out and assemble the sail out of the chosen sail material. In this case it was 1.5 mm Mylar with Kevlar skrim. I brought down my boat from Long Beach and rigged her up for a test sail out in front of SDYC the Wednesday before the start of the Finn North Americans.

After the first test sail George and I both noticed that the sail was very very powerful…my 6’7” 220 lbs frame was fully hiking in 6-8kts, conditions in which I would normally still be sitting in the boat searching for power. The one complaint I had straight away was that the leach hooked to weather a bit more than usual. After a bit of discussion we were happy to see that with the extra strength in the cloth weight we were able to wail on the Cunningham twisted the top off beautifully and flattened the sail. Armed with this successful test I headed off to the North American Champs in WINDY San Francisco. 8 races in 18-25kts on the Berkeley Circle was a hell of a test of fire for our new sail… After 3 days of 20+ kts I felt like I got mugged by a pack of angry badgers, but the sail preformed much better than I did. It was a glammer off the line, I was able to leave the Cunningham off and maintain height, then as soon as I was in a position to go bow down I would wail as hard as I could on the Cunningham and crush over the top of the boats to leeward with a comfortable groove to drive in that is a mile and a half wide.

I am very pleased with the work every one at Quantum San Diego has done. What we have come up with is a sail that is fast easy to shift gears, easy to drive, as well as one that will last longer than other Finn sails since we are using the 1.5mm cloth. Now if only I was as fit as Ed Wright and could gybe a Finn in 25kts without my sphincter clamping shut tighter than Fort Knox during a safe crackers convention, would be a start in the right direction. - Phil Toth

Does this process result in less cost? Well... for example, go to the North Sails website where you can pick and choose between seven different designs for their standard Finn sails. Click on "order sail" to check prices.

Wow.

And what does it say about "one design" when it sounds like a lot of your time is spent developing something to make you faster, as opposed to going out on the water to become a better sailor?
 
I sure hope Tracy read the 23rd post...


going on....


Reading the same story I must wonder..

What if we asked those talented guys to design a Laser sail with as equal an out of the box first day performance to our current North and Hyde rags as possible while trying to improve durability, pay all the royalties, supply battens and numbers and offer the product to our dealers for under $300.

Then we could present their proposed alternative sail at the next World Council Meeting to be voted upon as to become one of the minimum two suppliers for our game.

If the sails were built in San Diego our Technical officer could visit and inspect the loft without having to fly to Sri Lanka., and those of us who object to using toys made by people who are paid less than a decent living American level wage could feel lots better about buying new sails.
 
2) If we want to have the ability to go to "any" sailmaker for a Laser sail then either
a) ...
b) we draft sail measurement rules which sailmakers must adhere to when making sails which will give them a certain amount of freedom in how they satisfy the rules (like, for example, in the Star Class).

3) ...
4) If we go with 2(b) then I think we forfeit one of the basic tenets of the Laser philosophy and, personally, I'm just not ready to part with the strict one design principle simply to save a few hundred dollars ...

I think that in the UK this has already happened - except there are no sail specs, just imported "copies" of unknown accuracy using different cloths, different brand names, etc. but all with no control, no measurement. so for club sailors (in the UK) a set of sail specs and measurement regime would be a step closer to a one design (given that most clubs allow the "training sails" and their use is now very widespread). Were there not such an issue with the class legal sails (price/longevity) then the "training sail" suppliers would never have had a market created for them and the clubs would never have accepted these imitations because there would have been no justification for them

I agree with you about the benefits of a strict one design but in the UK that has already been lost at club level.

I suspect the underlying problem might relate to the different objectives of the class/owners and the builder. The builders aim is to maximise profit whilst the class/owners want a successful strict one design (part of which which means reasonable prices). RTalking ludicrous extremes, if the builder could make $10bn each year by selling few ludicrously overpriced boat vs $1bn making loads of sensibly priced boats they would take the $10bn and screw the existing ownership.

From the outside (I am not fully aware of the relationship between owner, class and builder) it appears that the builder has all the control. If the class has control it does not seem to use it. Maybe it feels timid because it receives money from the builder or maybe it really can do nothing or maybe I have the wrong impression.

Certainly the builder/class have managed to build a very successful class to this point. But the individuals making the decisions now are not the same as those in earlier times and so the same abilities are not necessarily there. In addition these days it is not acceptable for a company to make a decent profit but profits have to keep getting bigger and bigger and that can change the decisions those in control have to make. Following recent changes of ownership and what from rumours might indicate a few financial problems in the supply chain and the different people making the decisions with different pressures, can we rely on what was a successful strategy continuing through all the changes that have (and always will) happen. The impact of some decisions on the pricing has already had a dramatic impact on the class "strict one-design" in the UK as many clubs no longer have class racing.

Ian
 
sail with as equal an out of the box first day performance to our current North and Hyde rags as possible while trying to improve durability, pay all the royalties, supply battens and numbers and offer the product to our dealers for under $300.

Then we could present their proposed alternative sail at the next World Council Meeting to be voted upon as to become one of the minimum two suppliers for our game.


This has already happened with the current suppliers, many (at least eight that I am aware of) different models where built for eval/testing and the most promising (The full rig radial design I believe) have had long term testing. These sails would certainly increase (at least double) the competitive life span of the sail, for less then $30 of additional cost IMHO, There has been plenty of testing of these sails, the only thing that needs to be done is to make the decision. This could have been done over a year ago, but the foot dragging continues on. The reason why is black and white (or green or whatever color currency is these days) I'm sure we have reached a point now where "no decision can/will be made until after the 2012 games" - just another excuse IMHO
 
Given that we are currently half way through an Olympic cycle it is VERY unlikely that we will se a new sail this side of the 2012 games. If the class has any clue as to what is going on they should have it ready for a vote (even had the vote done) and bring it in as soon after the next Olympics as possible.

I believe the changes to the controls were held over until after an Olypmpics but I could be wrong.

I also believe that the ISAF has to approve any changes as the Laser is an Olympic class.

Last but not least... Let us not forget that the new sail has to be designed in such a way that it does not isntantly obsolete every other sail that is out there an in use.

Not an easy job by any means....
 
Last but not least... Let us not forget that the new sail has to be designed in such a way that it does not isntantly obsolete every other sail that is out there an in use.


Not everyone agrees with that point of view. The builder/dealers who are holding inventory would, but any sailor who only has an older rag (I guess we can say anything more then 4 regattas old) it shouldn't matter one bit

In a way, that thinking just keeps us stuck in the 1970's
 
From my perspective, I'd like to see a sail made with decent cloth for our $600. It's not the $600, but the fact that after a day in breeze, it's toast. That's what I have an issue with.

The margin is clearly there to use better cloth. The 3.2oz sails lasted longer than the current sails, as did the original 3.8 sails. If none of the decision makers will stop dragging their feet on a new design, just keep the current design and make Hyde and North go back to the better cloth.

If you think the price of a Finn sail is expensive on the open market, look at the price of Opti sails. Sub $100 for practice sails (not a bad sails). Then look at Opti racing sails @$550 for less than 1/2 the cloth of a laser sail. Virtually all sailmakers are at the same price point.
 

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