Fleet Impact

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derekcjackson

Member
Where I do most of my sailing in northern NJ, many fleets still suffer the consequences of prior changes to the Sunfish. It is difficult to find a competitive used Sunfish to race at a reasonable price. Often when someone buys a boat it is so heavy that it will never be competitive, regardless of how long you let it dry out. In the event that they find a lighter older boat, they are stunned when you tell them they need to spend another $800 on a new sail and centerboard to be competitive on the race course. This has really crippled our ability to grow fleets.

What leaves me a little concerned about a change to the rudder is there will be VERY few to no boats available on the used boat market with the new equipment. Obviously this may eventually resolve itself. However, it will probably cause the cost of entry into competitive racing to increase further because the large majority of the used boats with a new rudder design will be the newer more expensive ones. So, there may not be a wide price range to the competitive used boats. In the interim and to save people money, I guess our club could consider modifying a few rudders, as shown in the survey to save people money. However, this could leave us with a one design issue or the perception of one.

I am curious to hear how the past changes to the boat have impacted everyone's fleets and what you think a new rudder design would do for or to sailing at your club? Do you think there would be more women and children participating? Would fewer people participate because of the cost?
 
I started sailing in the mid 60’s. My parents when out and bought used sunfish and as we starting racing, they bought us better equipment and gear to upgrade our Sunfish including $150.00 to change to the new rudder systems back in 1971 which was a huge change but well worth the money as it improved how the rudder operated.

I returned to the sunfish again in 2000 after a 15 year absence. I’ve sailed in many classes since including 470’s, Hobies, Lasers, Windsurfers, J-24s to name a few. I choose to start sailing the Sunfish for two main reasons.
1) It had a great class of active sailors along the Gulf Coast while most of the others had died off.
2) The sunfish had been upgraded and improved its design. New tiller extensions, rounded deck flange, new daggerboard, North race sail. Without these update, I would have gone elsewhere to another class like the Laser and spent considerable more money. New sail, vang systems. How much is a radial rig?

When it came down to getting a boat, I went to a few regattas and asked around at what people were using and what had changed. Knowing that I needed a newer daggerboard and sail, it was a no brainer to get a new boat. This was mainly due to the fact that the newer changes would be hard to find at the time. This is not the case now with more newer model Sunfish out there and I’ve since paid $1500.00 for used ( newer model ) sunfish and bought new race gear for each. Oh we could also say that we now need dollies too @ what $400.00. To spend $800.00 is not a great deal of money compared to anything else on the water that compares. I also invested $2000.00 in a trailer ( modified to carry 4 boats ) so that I could take my kids with me to regattas. I expect to buy a new sail every few years anyway. Come on! Things do break, booms, top spars, mast, daggerboards and with kids even lost.

To say that spending money to upgrade a Sunfish is the cause of fleets to die is absurd. If the Sunfish had not improved over the years most would never return. It’s the people involved in the class at local clubs that keep this going and for parents to invest time and money on their kids. The money I’ve spent is priceless to what I’ve gained racing a Sunfish against my kids. As a family, we can all do this together and still do when we can.

This proposed change, either a new blade, angle change in the existing rudder or both is another opportunity for this class to improve its image to have a fun boat for the family to sail and race together.


 
The local yacht club in my area uses the Butterfly, probably for the very reason you have mentioned. In essence, the 'one design' rule has been broken. In other classes you can buy a used boat and you're legal to race, even if you're not going to be a top contender with the newest equipment.

The other factor is competitive transition by the top contenders to other boats. The 'Extreme Sports Generation' will pick the Laser over the SF. Look what happened to the poor Rhodes Bantam. One of the finest, and fun, boats ever made. The top contender switched to the Laser and the rest followed.

Now look at the growth of the Puddle Duck Racer. One design hull, any sail you can beg, borrow or steal. Dirt cheep fun!

It all comes down to cost. The majority of a fleet are not going to be spending over $600 dollars and a further investment in upgrades as they are casual racers. That brings us back to used boats ready to race.

For me, I wish the good old Rhodes Bantam was King of the Hill. Perhaps someday it will rise again. . .
 
This topic has been hashed out many times before and it seems to be what you can do to a 'one design' boat and not hurt the class. I guess it depends on where the builder wants to go and how much he is influenced by the class and the class influence will be dictated by the interests of those in charge.
I do not know much about the Laser class, but I believe there are 2 or 3 versions of the Laser to fit the needs of the class. It has been mentioned before in previous discussions that it might be an option to have 2 divisions of Sunfish, a 'stock' and a racing. If you are sure you want to race, and to race you really need to compete in regattas other than your local club's 'Tuesday night beer sail', go ahead and buy a 'race model, with all the new changes. Also offer a 'stock' model for the average 'race in your own fleet guy'. Just make sure that the stock model can be altered to the race model if a person wants to move up. In local fleets you couild seperate the results and in regional races, seperate races could be run.
There seems to be a slight contradiction in the quote below from a post above. (wish I know how to do quotes, sorry) It seems to say that if the Sunfish had not improved, people would have left, well, the people that want a fast boat have, they sail Lasers. It ialso says that it is the people at local clubs that keep it going, that is so true. It is really not the boat, unless the boat is a real sinker, it is being able to be competitive. Racing is all relative and that is why 'one design' racing is so interesting. It is not the speed of the boat, but the fact that it is the sailors ability that is tested.
A race with 35 original Sunfish would, to me, be more exciting than a race with 2 or 3 'race' equipped Sunfish and 5 or 6 original Sunfish. and I think that was what was alluded to originally, that the changes to the boat reduce the size of the active people in the fleet. (BTW-I go way back and when Sunfish elongated the cockpit I thought it was a major breach of the 'one design concept)

"If the Sunfish had not improved over the years most would never return. It’s the people involved in the class at local clubs that keep this going and for parents to invest time and money on their kids."
 
derekcjackson said:
Where I do most of my sailing in northern NJ, many fleets still suffer the consequences of prior changes to the Sunfish. It is difficult to find a competitive used Sunfish to race at a reasonable price. Often when someone buys a boat it is so heavy that it will never be competitive, regardless of how long you let it dry out. In the event that they find a lighter older boat, they are stunned when you tell them they need to spend another $800 on a new sail and centerboard to be competitive on the race course. This has really crippled our ability to grow fleets.

What leaves me a little concerned about a change to the rudder is there will be VERY few to no boats available on the used boat market with the new equipment. Obviously this may eventually resolve itself. However, it will probably cause the cost of entry into competitive racing to increase further because the large majority of the used boats with a new rudder design will be the newer more expensive ones. So, there may not be a wide price range to the competitive used boats. In the interim and to save people money, I guess our club could consider modifying a few rudders, as shown in the survey to save people money. However, this could leave us with a one design issue or the perception of one.

I am curious to hear how the past changes to the boat have impacted everyone's fleets and what you think a new rudder design would do for or to sailing at your club? Do you think there would be more women and children participating? Would fewer people participate because of the cost?
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I agree with these comments from derek jackson. OD is suppsoe to be OD, not developmental. Some people always think they can "make it better" when it just makes it different, and therefore NOT OD. If you want a Laser and that performance, then respectfully go buy one. While the suggested change may actually make the Sunfish easier to sail in higher wind ranges it WILL leave some sailors behind and divide the Class. I don't call that progress. Winever.
 
There is no proof either way that new sails and new centerboards helped or hurt the class. Participation is down since the class started making these changes, but sailing is down in general and Lasers have started taking over.

However, saying that making everyone pay another $222 to replace what is already a one design rudder with another one design rudder will result in more people sailing Sunfish is a big stretch. People used to complain that the sails were not one design - they varied too much and it was hard to find a good one - the racing sail took care of that. People used to complain the centerboard was not one design - you had to spend days sculpting the perfect centerboard out of West epoxy, fillers, marine tex and fiberglass - the new centerboard took care of that. But no one is saying that the rudder is not one design. This is a change of convenience for certain conditions - probably conditions in which well less than half of racing takes place. What's next - a trapeze to help lighter sailors compete when it really blows - and the stronger mast required to support the trapeze?

The class is not that strong right now - attendance is generally down at major regattas. Telling all 1500 members and probably another 2000 racers who are not members to go fork over $222 to stay competitive seems counterintuitive (also seems counterintuitive to try and grow the class by telling someone with an old boat they need to spend $800 or $900 to get competitive.)

BB
 
An idea to REALLY grow the class

One more thing. If the 1,500 members really want to grow the class, they could all contribute their $222 to a "grow the class fund." That would be $333,000. Either spend it on new boats and trailers (maybe $4,500 for the package) and the class could buy 74 loaner boats to introduce new people to the class. If each boat got used by 10 people a season, that is 740 people who could try Sunfish racing. Or, spend half of it on marketing and advertising why a Sunfish is great, and buy 35 loaner boats to introduce people to the class.

My bet is either of these ideas would result in a lot more people racing Sunfish than spending the money on rudder blades.

BB
 
How about this, get rid of the rule forcing everyone to buy a overpriced sail from the manufacture. It made sense at the time but now the sails are cut by laser for god sake. They are the same, and if not a few changes to the CAD/CAM file would fix it. Allow people to use a racing sail from Intensity and you've cut out a chunk of money needed to race.

Get rid of the foil and go back to wooded center board. Ya, I can hear ya screaming but what good is it if the fleet is in decline. Nothing is written in stone and I'd recommend you'd best be busy trying out various rule options before the window closes on fixing things. The economy ain't taken it final dive yet so expect the amount of coin people are willing to part with will become less.
 
Minor progression of a one design is a good thing. I also think BOTH rudders need to be class legal - this will ensure everyone gets to race. This won't become a "development" class if we change the rudders. It will become a class that evolves based on the needs of the boat and the sailors.
 
This is a definition of 'one design' that I have found.

"For classes where the boats are physically smaller, this might mean that everything is designed and produced at the same factory, or by only licensed manufacturer in any country or region, so that all racing vehicles have identical parts. "

The part about 'identical parts' seems to be againt 'minor evolving'.

The question becomes the needs of the boat and the sailor. Is the boat unsafe? Can it not be produced without some change of specifications? (as when classes had to make the change from wood to fiberglass). Why, in the needs of the boat, must it be changed? The original rudder had a problem of kicking out when subjected to strong side pressure. That may have been a change for the 'need of the boat'. The 'need' of the sailor? Need to go faster? Go to a faster class boat. (Laser) I think most sailors want even competition. Boats go fast in strong winds, slower in light wnds. What was exciting to me, when I raced (not in a Sunfish) was getting to the mark ahead of my competitors and trying to gain ground on a boat ahead. Boat speed had little to do with it, it was my speed relative to my competitiion. "One design' is based on the principle of no advantage by design of the boat, but advantage by the way you prepare the boat (and yourself) and the way you handle the boat and read the conditions and apply the rules of sailing to gain an advantage.
 
I've never raced Sunfish. But I grew up racing Optis, Bytes, Lasers, 420s and a few J22s and Solings, all One Design boats. I got out of sailing for a while in college and last summer I picked up a 60's Sunfish for next to nothing. I've been working on it ever since. My original plan was to get it race ready...that is until I discovered how much it would cost to do that. I would have needed to upgrade the rudder, centerboard and buy a new very expensive sail. In other words it would have prohibitively expensive.

I've been trying to follow the discussion on this new proposed rudder for the sunfish and I completely fail to see how changing the rudder would help get more people racing. When I sailing in all of those other classes people had sails from different manufacturers, different rigging setups, different spars, etc. That is what opens up racing to different levels of sailors, allowing people to do what works for them and what they can afford while still allowing them to go out and compete.

I would join the class as a member if I could race, but I'm not going to spend well over what my boat is worth to get it race ready. If Laser Performance says the new rudder will make the boats faster then let them make it, let people buy it and see how it fares in competition. Some will buy it, others won't and the results will speak for themselves. If the class mandates a new rudder then I'm guessing you'll lose people who can't spend the money, don't want to, or who are just tired of having to keep up with (what I see as) arbitrary rules.
 
chucktowncolie said:
Minor progression of a one design is a good thing. I also think BOTH rudders need to be class legal - this will ensure everyone gets to race. This won't become a "development" class if we change the rudders.
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The Sunfish Class has had minor progression, like the cleat on the mast for the halyard, keeping you from pulling the boat apart. Benefited everyone and didn't divide the class. You know as well as I do that if a new rudder design starts winning the races then sailors will be forced to cough up the bucks for a new rudder, sail at what they think is a disadvantage or stop racing. This rudder proposal IS a developmental change not minor progression.

Congratulatiions to you for your success in the Class but not everyone wants to compete at that level, many just want to go to the line with a simple boat in a competitive OD class that fits their ability.

Cheers Winever.
 
The Sunfish class is bigger than most one design dinghy classes and if it is currently undergoing a reduction in participants I'm not sure this has or will have anything to do with relatively minor modifications. There are an ever increasing number of dinghies hitting the market, most are performance oriented, people are going to simply want to try something else from time to time. Many clubs seem to undergo changing trends, today their sailing mainly Laser's, next year a movement towards another dinghy gains momentum, a few years later it may shift back. The day may come when the SF is simply no longer popular, despite various "improvments", if this happens I don't think there is anything that can be done to prevent it. In other words sticking with the current rudder design or opting for the new design I feel will ultimately have little effect on saving the class.
 
Zeppo said:
The Sunfish class is bigger than most one design dinghy classes .....There are an ever increasing number of dinghies hitting the market, most are performance oriented, people are going to simply want to try something else from time to time. .....The day may come when the SF is simply no longer popular, despite various "improvments", .....
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Zeppo, I agree with much of what you are saying. The beauty of the Sunfish is the gigantic size of its production. Laser Performance could stop making it tomorrow and that would have little impact on MOST of the sailing being done in the Fish, not counting the top competitive racing. There are literally thousands of these boats sitting in storage that could go to MOST starting lines and be competitive. EXCEPT for the Class changes that have already been made, daggerboard, sail. Throw in the need to up grade the rudder to be competitive and you diminish the value of these stored hidden gems, plus complicating the easy conversion to race competitive boats. Could be that's part of the Laser Performance plan and/or they want to fight for a piece of the "new"market of dinghy sport boats by adding the new rudder. Either way it may be what's best for Performance but I don't think it's best for me as an owner. Where I sail if one boat adds the "new" rudder it will shave off boats that are racing. Period. Winever.

BTW, I certainly would not call this a minor modification.
 
The thing that's going to impact the fleet the most is how much fun we have, not a new rudder. People under the age of 25 looking for an Olympic campaign will go to Lasers, People over 200 to M.C.'s. - We need to entice the 25-44 crowd back in to racing through fun and affordability. Focus on fun at regattas. I've noticed that age group is stronger in this fleet than in most classes.

The rudder won't solve this, but it will make the boat easier for someone new to sail. This is my third season in a Sunfish, and I've started to figure out how to set the boat up for varying conditions. The new rudder would have enabled me to be more competitive right away - I didn't have a clue when I began how to adjust the rig to negate or increase helm and was destroyed in windier conditions as a result. Please note that I'm still not as competitive as people think and I have more to learn about the boat. I stayed with the boat and have took the time to learn more about it because I like challenges and saw local potential in developing the 25-44 age group in the class.
You guys want class development and want to keep it alive? - That's where you need to go. Go after the guy who sits on the rail of someone's yacht in some weeknight series because he can't afford a competitive boat in another class - he's been out of college for a while, has a couple of kids etc. but wants to race competitively. I wanted to steer, and keep a competitive boat on a reasonable budget. The Sunfish allows me to do that . I won't need a new rudder because I've learned to keep the helm under control through exercising, and adjusting the rig. You want the class to grow, the boat needs to be easy to handle in heavy air out of the box. The new rudder will help do this.

I'm not commenting on this anymore. There will be two camps on the rudder debate - the change it's and the don't change it's. Each will have their own reasons. My reason is simple: people will stay if the boat is easier to control.
 
I run a small sailing program for a private commuinty on the west coast of Fl. A few years ago I initiated a club racing program to improve the sailing skills of my members most of whom would be considered seniors both men and women ( who take the men to task most races). We sail primarily in a shallow weedy bay. The vertical rudder would give us a problem at lower tides. On the other hand when the wind kicks up my women sailors are hesitant to venture out because of the weather helm problem. It appears from what I'm reading the new rudder design could be more favorable for them as well as some of my older sailors ( 70's and 80's ). With 10 boats the cost of having a dual set of rudders may be out of the question. Though over time they could be worked in. These people love to sail and race. Or maybe it's the cocktail party we have after every race!!! Even if the boats never reach the water. Unfortunately in the fall mid Nov through mid Jan the tides are very low so the new rudder could eliminate a third of our race season. For this reason I would opt to stay with the old design for my fleet.

Mickey
 
winever said:
I agree with these comments from derek jackson. OD is suppsoe to be OD, not developmental. Some people always think they can "make it better" when it just makes it different, and therefore NOT OD.
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In many cases "one-design" defines parameters, not necessarily same mold stamped out exact copies when we talk about sailboats today. The Star Class is the best example. How about 12 Meters? Tartan 10s? Sometimes it's a rule, sometimes it's trying to have as even and similar equipment as possible. The Sunfish has been among the closest to exact duplicate across all boats as possible in its existence, though there have been many variables: hull weight has varied from 119 to 135 from the factory, so far 3 rudder blade styles, 5 daggerboard styles, and two hull shapes. To this point, while the Sunfish is a "Manufacturer's Class" (see ISAF web site for definition of Class associations gaining international status), there's more to being one-design than being exact, duplicate copies.

Perhaps the manufacturer might investigate changing its standard to all boats meeting race rigged? If they make sails white and colored to the shape of the racing sail and they're only having to stock one cut of sail, perhaps the overall cost of racing sails would go down slightly? If every boat goes into the box exactly the same, that would increase their resale value as they'd be suitable for cruisers and racers. It could also lead to more frequent use by recreational sailors as they'd have the opportunity to be informed they're "race ready" and if a boat is used more, parts will wear out and/or break sooner, leading to further parts purchases. If all sails are cut to the race shape, there still are a lot of people who want colored sails, and they would also be happy.
 
Re: An idea to REALLY grow the class

beldar boathead said:
One more thing. If the 1,500 members really want to grow the class, they could all contribute their $222 to a "grow the class fund." That would be $333,000. Either spend it on new boats and trailers (maybe $4,500 for the package) and the class could buy 74 loaner boats to introduce new people to the class. If each boat got used by 10 people a season, that is 740 people who could try Sunfish racing. Or, spend half of it on marketing and advertising why a Sunfish is great, and buy 35 loaner boats to introduce people to the class.

My bet is either of these ideas would result in a lot more people racing Sunfish than spending the money on rudder blades.

BB
Click to expand...
Hey, there BB, NOW we're talking! this makes a lot more sense!
 
Gail said:
In many cases "one-design" defines parameters, not necessarily same mold stamped out exact copies when we talk about sailboats today. The Star Class is the best example. How about 12 Meters? Tartan 10s? Sometimes it's a rule, sometimes it's trying to have as even and similar equipment as possible.
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I would add the Soling, J22 and Opti to this list as well. I haven't been part of the sunfish class for that long, but I don't understand the obsession with making every boat at the line a carbon copy of all the others.
 
Gail mentioned the Star class. They are having, or had a similar debate about allowing composite Spars. Original Star class rules specified Wood spars only. If Aluminum was not allowed when that was debated, the class would probably not exist today. Change in the right direction can be a good thing for a one design class.
 
Just a few thoughts, IMHO, the idea of making every boat a 'carbon copy' of each other is the idea that the race should be won (or lost) the skill of the sailor, not on the sailors ability to fund (or buy) better equipment that the next guy. As far as the Star allowing the use of a metal mast, vs a wood mast, all older designs have had to make these decisions due to advances in building materials. As a Comet owner, the Comet class had to allow the use of fiberglass, as opposed to a wooden hull. Following the introduction of the fiberglass hull regattas were still won by wooden hull boats, which meant no hulls were made obsolete by design. Wooden hull boat owners could compete on an even field with fiberglass hulls. The Comet also intorduced the use of the Proctor C section metal mast to the class. Again, the metal mast did not change the performaqnce of the boat. I would think that the metal mast of the Star has not make the boat perform diferently, other than a metal mast does not allow you to 'tune' the boat as much as a wooden mast may. Many older boats sailed with a 7 stay 'bendy' mast that allowed you to flatten or relax the sail according to wind conditions.
I find Gails post very interesting, as it is the heart of this whole debate. IMHO, if the Sunfish had only made two changes to the boat (discounting extending the cockpit), one being the flip up rudder , the other being the new board, then I can not see the class being much different than today, and maybe it would have been better. If only those two changes had been made, then every boat ever produced would have been competive out of the box. The allowance of 'outhauls' and 'downhouls' is a very minor expense, open to all. The Sunfish has proved to be a well designed, capable sailing boat since day one.
Back in sailings 'awakening days', when sailing opened to the general public (much to the credit of the Sunfish) there was a push for the market that made competers push to make a boat "faster than a Sunfish". The Sunfish had to counter, thus the Super Sunfish and such. Today there is not such comptition. As far as the 'Laser-Sunfish' debate, they are two different boats. A Sunfish is more of a 'family' boat, can be sailed by just about everyone, the Laser is a performance boat. I know of people that have switched both ways, do to thier individual needs.
The idea of racing should not be based on the speed of one class of boat as compared to the speed of another class of boat, but the idea of racing should be getting together and competing on a level field. If boat speed matters, move to another class.
 
derekcjackson said:
Where I do most of my sailing in northern NJ, many fleets still suffer the consequences of prior changes to the Sunfish. It is difficult to find a competitive used Sunfish to race at a reasonable price. Often when someone buys a boat it is so heavy that it will never be competitive, regardless of how long you let it dry out. In the event that they find a lighter older boat, they are stunned when you tell them they need to spend another $800 on a new sail and centerboard to be competitive on the race course. This has really crippled our ability to grow fleets.
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I was responding to an inquiry in the forum from someone who is also a bicycle racer. Having been involved with organized cycling in a prior life I replied using the cycling idiom. In replying this way it got me to thinking the Sunfish Class might benefit from the approach the USCF (United States Cycling Federation) takes to accommodate the stratification among its ranks.

I have observed each time a change is proposed or a new piece of equipment introduced, the discussion over acceptance quickly digresses to subordinate issues. Primarily, the concerns surround the economic perspective of the proletariat Sunfish sailor.

USCF, like the Sunfish Class, is faced with every level of skill and a broad range of equipment. For the most part, the concept of “One Design” does not exist except as a limitation to equipment existing within the normally accepted domain of competitive cycling and a standard for safety. Nonetheless, the competition is still head-to-head skill based rather than handicapped. This is achieved by the creation of divisions or “rider categories” within the ranks. Five categories exist from beginner to the pros you see riding Tour de France. A racer rises through the ranks by achievement. Beginners tend to start out with less expensive equipment and work on their riding skills until they place consistently, at which point they move up in ranking. If a rider upgrades their equipment and gains a paraphernalia advantage, thereafter placing higher than their categorical peers, they face moving up a grade where their equipment is matched, but their skill level is inadequate. This acts as a deterrent to riders trying to compete by equipment alone. It also serves to allow riders not interested in investing in equipment upgrades to race at a particular level, un-pressured to change what they ride.

Cycle racing is divided into five levels of skill, but to keep control over the complexity of holding races for each they generally group events and let times separate the field. Placing in your own category is what counts so being out raced by the next level on the same course isn’t an issue. Sunfish fleets behave this way already on an unofficial level, however devising an official system could debase much of the argument now clouding discussions of technological advancement for the boat design. In the meantime sailors seek their own equipment and skill level within the ranks with progression purely a personal choice rather than a competitive necessity.
 
I think Winever's point is the most important: the Sunfish class' best asset is the huge number of boats out there, available incredibly inexpensively, that allow very easy entry into the class. I believe that most people who begin sailing Sunfish and then racing Sunfish begin in used Sunfish, precisely because they are so readily and cheaply available. The changes that we have made as a class already have made it significantly more expensive to bring the average used boat up to racing speed. Unlike the proposed rudder change, the other changes were more important, either from a safety/utility perspective (the change to the 1971 rudder), or for one design reasons (the new board and the racing sail). I accept that the proposed rudder would work better, and I note that it would be particularly beneficial for me, given that I weigh about 155 and work too much to be in good sailing shape for much of the year. I don't think it would be good for the class, however, because it would add another barrier for those buying used boats -- our true pipeline.

The suggestion (I believe it was Gail's) to have all sails cut to the same shape makes a lot more sense to me. Going forward, as more and more full-sized sails are out there, it would eliminate one of the barriers to being race-ready. This seems to be a no-brainer. Where's the downside? Serious racers will still pay extra to get the window (though we'll grumble), but the kids and the rest of the world who wind up with colored sails would no longer be disadvantaged if they decide to try racing. It makes me sad every time I see a particular eleven year old kid trying to keep up in our summer racing series, using a really old (Sailfish?) mast with a block on the side for the halyard and a non-racing sail. I'm sure he knows he'd do better with a racing sail, but I assume the cost keeps him from getting one.

Another idea, which isn't getting talked about at the moment, would be to relax the 120 degree rule, allowing the current board to be angled lower, either by changing the placement of the through-bolt or perhaps (my preference) by modifying the rudder cheek assembly. A new assembly would undoubtedly cost much less than a new rudder (they're $66.78 on APS), so upgrading one's old equipment would be much less expensive. I'm sure the proposed new design would work better, but this solution seems to be a good compromise. Somewhere in one of these threads, I read a post by someone saying that he had made a similar change inadvertently and that it improved the boat-handling significantly. If we have to make a change, let's make it as minimally expensive as possible, so that we don't make even more of the thousands of Sunfish out there obsolete from a racing perspective.

Having dropped over $200 on a new FRP rudder just a few years ago, I really don't want to have to do it all over again . . . and then have to buy two more for my two kids. Heck, my tiny wife will probably want one for her Minifish!
 
Rick Whitehurst says “this new rudder DOES and WILL expand the competitive weight/gender/age range of the Sunfish, and that can only expand the number and quality of competitors”

Did the new centerboard, racing sail, increase the number of people buying sunfish and racing? Are there numbers proving more weight/gender/age range people are racing since these changes occurred? So why would a change in the rudder?

We all travel to regattas and see people racing with 30 year old sails, old rudders, no tweaks as the cost of keeping a boat at the competitive level keeps increasing. The sailors of the older boats know they are going to be at the back of the fleet when they see the racing sail being raised and get discouraged. Sunfish are the most popular boat in the world; more people would race if you keep the changes to the boats to a minimum. If every boat was the same you would have a number of competitors, but they aren’t due to changes, and now another change is being proposed that will separate the class even more.

In order to grow the class, local and regional regattas, you must lower the barriers to get people into the boat not raise them. As Dan K points out “the Sunfish class best asset is the huge number of boats out there, available incredibly inexpensively, that allow very easy entry into the class”. I have always been surprised that at North Americans and Worlds that the class doesn’t work with local club, city to invite people down to see the boats and sailors. How nice it would be for someone interested in sailing to know that they could come to club one of the mornings and meet some of the best sailors in the World, have them explain the boat , the class, the fun of sailing etc. You need to grow the class, racing by being available and reaching out to get new members not adding more barriers and cost that prevent people from being able to sail and race competitively.
 
Rick Whitehurst says “this new rudder DOES and WILL expand the competitive weight/gender/age range of the Sunfish, and that can only expand the number and quality of competitors”
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I could not agree with the above statement more, and respectfully disagree with Demon. You clearly have 2 populations of sailors, recreational summer lake sailors and more competitive racers. Updating the design in my opinion will bring more people into the class. Look at The Opti class....it is the biggest class in the WORLD. Sure, it is easy to pick up a used club boat and teach your kids to sail. Most sailors under 40 years old learned to sail on an Opti. So why are there so many used Optis floating around? Because hundreds (maybe more?) parents like me shelled out the bux to enable their kids to be competitive with the newest sails,blades, and spars. How can this POSSIBLY hurt the class? I have just infused more equipment into the pool allowing someone else down the road the opportunity to sail. Look at it as community service.
Design updates can only help the class. Lasers had the vang updates. Optis had the new blade rules. Both classes continue to grow. If you you want the class to grow doesn't someone somewhere have to be buying new "Stuff"?
And that equipment filters down the system and new people buy it and start sailing Sunfish and maybe those people in a couple years become more serious and buy a new boat with a new rudder.
But most importantly, I would love to buy and use a new rudder myself since I weigh under 140 lbs !
 
I love all this "I know it will grow the class. I just know it!!" That is simply speculation and wishful thinking. As I said above, "making everyone pay another $222 to replace what is already a one design rudder with another one design rudder will result in more people sailing Sunfish is a big stretch."

So someone is thinking of racing a Sunfish. They can buy a used one without a racing sail or board for about $1000 (to use a round number.) Right now we tell them you will need to spend about abotu $700 for a racing sail and centerboard. And you think MORE people will decide to do that if we tell them they need to spend north of $900??!! Has anyone here taken an economics class???

I hate to tell you this, but people are NOT going to flock to Sunfish because it has a new rudder blade!! The sailing population is NOT going to say - Wow, Sunfish just got a new rudder blade. I have to go buy a Sunfish!!

One last thing - unfortunately Sunfish are not in the same sitution as Lasers and Optis. Those two have become virtually national trainers for kids getting into sailing. They have a huge pipeline of people entering those classes each year, so if you want to get "trained" you have to buy that stuff. Sunfish do not have that natural pipeline - we are scratching to get new sailors. We should be lowering barriers to entry, not raising them. And people are NOT leaving the class because of the current rudder, nor are people looking at Sunfish as a boat to buy, and saying, well, if only it had a different rudder, I would buy it. It is not happening. Sorry.

BB
 
UHMM.... didn't the North American Champ turn around and win the Laser 4.7 Worlds the following week? If the boat is more appealing more kids from the pipeline will come in. Unless there is a way to attract more youths...the class will continue to dwindle.
 
Fanning the flames ... (kidding, mostly)

I came into the Class as a Junior sailor (Smythe eliminations in borrowed boats for Laser finals, no one in our area had Lasers back in the day and Sunfish were EVERYWHERE!). I was a weenie girl back then. It blew like heck in those regattas and the great ride is what made me love the boat. I didn't worry about having a tug on the rudder. I had a tug in the Blue Jay and the 420, too. If kids today don't have the strength to manage our rudder in a blow, we've got more serious issues to discuss than a $222 rudder blade.

Get their derriere's off the couch, away from the computer, ipod, texting, etc., and outside doing something. ANYTHING! Adults have already figured out that a few extra exercises overcome the issue as well as setting their boat up properly ...
 
Esteroali said:
UHMM.... didn't the North American Champ turn around and win the Laser 4.7 Worlds the following week? If the boat is more appealing more kids from the pipeline will come in. Unless there is a way to attract more youths...the class will continue to dwindle.
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Thank you for making my point! If our rudder was so, so, so terrible would this accomplished Laser sailor have sailed a Sunfish? According to the argument that is getting made, they would stay home rather than sail a Sunfish! But apparently this Laser guru found the rudder to be acceptable.

And if you think kids are going to decide all of the sudden Sunfish are cool because they have a new rudder, you are in for an unfortunate surprise. Hang out at a yacht club today and listen to kids. Lasers are "in" and cool, Sunfish are not. I have not heard them dissing the rudder, they are dissing the whole boat. I am not sure what the solution is, but it is NOT changing the rudder.

BB
 
As an aside to the previous two posts, the Laser rudder blade is undersized as well. Keeping the boat flat to keep control with a minimum amount of helm is even more important in a Laser than in a Sunfish. If this isn't done, a Laser will just take off on its own, no matter how far you push the tiller over. This is most apparent when going around the windward mark in a breeze.

The Laser class rules are even stricter than those of our Class and the shape, or position, of the rudder hasn't been changed ever.
 
With all due respect I must disagree with beldar, Gail and Wavedancer. I do believe that changing the Sunfish will bring more sailors into the class. I have given this deep thought and have come up with a few minor changes to the boat. First, the boat has a problem 'pointing' so a change in the sail may be needed. If we shorten up the foot and lengthen the leech the boat may point higher. This would mean a shorter boom and longer upper gaff, in a more vertical position. My only concern here is that the new upper gaff may flip over the mast, so maybe the upper gaff could be eliminated and a longer mast be used. The new sail could have a pocket sewn in the leech that would slip over the mast. Also the Sunfish hull, with its small tub is a bit crowded. The tub could be enlarged to cover more of the boat. As far as the hull goes, the Sunfish is a bit 'hard chined'. The hull could be more rounded, or dish shaped. With these changes it may not look like the old Sunfish we all have grown to love, a boat that is suited for all ages and a real affordable 'family' boat that has stood the test of time, so a new name may be in order. We have really cut up the boat so we should name it after a high-tech cutting device. Just some thoughts.
 
I'm all for making the class better, but the new rudder makes such a minimal impact, why have people shell out that money? I'd prefer to get the new tiller which in turn gives you more control should the occasion arise. Leave it alone, focus on building the class locally and don't worry about what other classes are doing. Money is the root, so don't ask people to spend on something they really don't need. You're telling me if you were to pit the top two Sunfish sailors against eachother, one the proposed new rudder and one with the old....the proposed new would win every time? I doubt it!!!! Just my 2 cent ramble - should this go through....please send me all of your old rudders and boats. I can build a hearty fleet with everyones "garbage".
 
Ah, so I did- and as you must have guessed, my post was in jest- sort of a tongue-in-cheek poke at the debate. I agree with, not take exception to, the posts by belder, Wavedance and Gail. In fact Gail I think you, and sorry if I am wrong, suggested having only one sail-the racing sail- but also available in colors- which would move back to the 'one-design' philosophy. A boat 'out of the box' should be race ready, and each 'advancement' makes prevous boats not 'race ready. As I said before the only 2 advancements I go along with are the expanded cockpit and new (1970's) flip up rudder. (the old rudder was a problem with its popping up with side pressure) The Sunfish is what it is, a great boat that can be sailed by one, will hold 2, fairly stable in the water, will handle most wind conditions and can be raced or sailed for pleasure. I have enjoyed taking my children out sailing in it when they were younger. They enjoy sailing it now. I recall a race held on Little Sodus Bay with Lasers. The wind was howling and many Lasers were spending more time on their sides than sailing, and yet, out of nowhere came a Sunfish. I watched as it sailed vbehind the start line and then headed across the bay. Thinking the boat was in some trouble I went to see, as it headed into shore. At the helm was an older gentleman, maybe late 60's, early 70's (man, not boat). He was out for a sail and came to visit a friend. Point is, the Sunfish is a darn good boat. It does not need, IMHO, to be improved.
 
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