European Boats

Does anyone know when the European Hulls will reach America? I heard they are stiffer and lighter than Vanguard hulls. I know PSE just bought Vanguard but i cant seem to find the date that they will be over here.
 
Does anyone know when the European Style Hulls will come to America? I heard they are stiffer and lighter than vanguard boats

There are several possible explanations for what you heard...

a) The European factory makes Lasers to a totally different specification than the American factory. Unlikely.

b) The European factory makes Lasers to the same specification as the American factory but for some unknown reason (weather, local suppliers of materials, Joe always puts in extra layer of glass because he can't count beyond three) they just turn out stiffer.

c) The European factory makes Lasers to the same specification as the American factory but for some unknown reason (weather, local suppliers of materials, Joe always puts in one less layer of glass because he can't count beyond three) they just turn out lighter.

d) b and c. Wait, that can't be right.

e) There has to be some explanation as to why European sailors always kick our butts in major championships. No, that can't be right either as people generally use charter boats from the country they are sailing in.

f) The grass is always greener on the other side of the fence.

g) Some other explanation that I can't think of.

I have no expertise on this issue and my opinion has no weight. But it is stiff.
 
I seriously doubt that Euro boats will be sold here full time, if you want one you will have to get them in a container like everyone else, but it's just not worth it.
But you can buy Euro spar's from Colie, but their not black, tried that already.

Hope that wasn't to much of a one liner
 
I had heard PSE had purchased Vanguard but was unaware that they were moving all boat production to Europe. Shipping the hulls to the US will be costly and I would have thought it would make commercial sense to continue production in the US.

But this is just my thinking allowed. Did they announce that European hulls were to be sold in the US ?

Also remember that, I believe the price of a new US boat is currently around $5300 (race spec.). A UK boat will cost you $7387 (basic model, no XD stuff) to $8895 (XD model) (though they are even more expensive in e.g. France). Are you still sure you want European boats.

Ian
 
I think there is some confusion being spread. Vanguard the company has been purchased by the European Laser manufacturer. Vanguard will continue to manufacture Lasers and other Vanguard boats in CT. No plans have been discussed to change that.
 
While we are busy correcting all the rumors, mistruths and other figments of the imagination, the Vanguard/PSE factory is in Portsmouth, RI, not CT.
 
Well my coach said that the Euro hulls are like ten pounds lighter and alot stiffer when hitting waves because ive sailed many american built lasers and every time you hit a wave hard the hull shakes (and im talking about new american boats too) and he also told me that they might start making them in US. but im not sure
 
What a twist. But Ross they would still be European design just U.S.A. manufactured. Kind of like cars toyota and honda were designed in Japan but there are plants in America producing them. Thats all i have to say.
 
the Laser is a Canadian design, by Bruce Kirby, in Canada.......
 
ah well um then if there is a difference between european boats and canadian boats they were most likely designed in Europe. If these lighter stiffer boats were designed in Canada dont you think would already be in America?:rolleyes:
 
there is only one design, all the builders follow that design, there is no difference in the design, hence a one design rule
 
Though could they alter the design a little bit and still have it as a one-design?:rolleyes: Also, if these boats are stiffer and lighter how?:confused:
 
semantics |səˈmantiks| plural noun [usu. treated as sing. ] the branch of linguistics and logic concerned with meaning. • the meaning of a word, phrase, sentence, or text : such quibbling over semantics may seem petty stuff.

oops... I'm off topic... ;^)

it's friday... i pulled a sicky & am now going sailing!
have a great weekend!
cheers
 
if they altered, it wouldn't be a one design, they are all weighed and spec'ed before the leave the factory and if they don't meet standards set by ILCA they are destroyed. Trust me, aside from colour, there is no difference.
 
One thing I was told when purchased mine late last year was that the coloured topside boats were slightly heavier than the single colour boats. In the UK virtually all boats are one colour (light grey) but they occasionally build a batch of a colour. When collecting mine I had assumed it would not be a good colour so ordered the normal plain. When arriving at the factory the colour of the coloured topside boats was actually quite good and I was considering. I was told that the way they have to lay the gelcoat/glass and the manufacturing process for the coloured topsides is slightly different and the boats come out a few Kg heavier.

I was told this by PSC at their warehouse. I have no idea about its truth, just repeating what I was told. Either way, I'm happy with the one I got.

Of course, if the weight thing was true it would apply equally to US and European boats.

What made me think of this was that I have the impression that coloured topside boats are more common in the US than Europe.

Ian
 
European Champion Laser RAdial Evi van Acker sails an aussie boat, and i heard her say once when she came back from miami how glad she was to sail her uk boat again, a month later she switched to ausie boats. so i guess there must be a difference
 
European Champion Laser RAdial Evi van Acker sails an aussie boat, and i heard her say once when she came back from miami how glad she was to sail her uk boat again, a month later she switched to ausie boats. so i guess there must be a difference

So you are saying that Evi thinks that Aussie boats are better than UK boats which are better than US boats?

How much better I wonder? If some entrepeneur wanted to import some better Aussie or UK boats into the US, what kind of premium would people be willing to pay? $1000? $2000?
 
Just look at the existing difference in cost between UK and US: US around $5300 (race spec.), UK $8059. That is $2759 premium before you have paid for shipping, some profit for whoever does it, etc.

That said, if we are paying an extra $2759 per boat in the UK I would hope they were better :D:D

Ian
 
Hi,
In 2006 I have asked about the difference between hulls of PSE compared to those of Vanguard Inc. an expert (former owner of Laser USA 134145). In result, it seems the gunwale (hull-to-deck joint) of the PSE hulls is a lot weaker (thinner) than that of the Vanguard hulls. PSE use much glue and not enough glass. And also: Also it seems, that the PSE hulls have a much higher glass to resin ratio to the point of being too dry. A damaged Vanguard hull that stayed exposed to the conditions for a full year would appear as "dry and brittle" as a PSE hull damaged yesterday....

However, it would be great, if all the Laserites of TLF that join the races of Roses/ESP would be so kind, to share, here later on, their experience they have with the hulls of PSE compared to those of their continent (NA, AUS/NZL, JPN, South America), related to the question of differences (f.e. stiffness), thanks.


To the different costs, compared between NA-hulls and PSE-hulls is to say, that one has to add the costs of border-tax/duty that are to add to the cost of shipping a vanguard hull to Europe. The US$ went down, too - so, there is no realisic relation to compare simple the both cost for those hulls in US$.

No doubt, a monopoly-company like PSE (or Vanguard before) get their profit, anyway. I am not sure, if several others (Trademark owners, inverntors, ISAF) additional do earn also with that deal. However, one aspect is realistic for me allways: For the most sailors of us not the technical equipment is the reason for the success at racing, but: the personal ability of sailing, tactic's/ race-strategy, athletic ability and knowledge of the specific's of the area the races are hold.

Ciao
LooserLu
 
Ok maybe my coach wasn't right about a laser being lighter but i still believe the European boats are better made. They can be the same weight yet also be stiffer than american boats. Which makes them move faster which might have led my coach to beleive they were lighter! Im a genius.... only kidding
 
Ok maybe my coach wasn't right about a laser being lighter but i still believe the European boats are better made. They can be the same weight yet also be stiffer than american boats. Which makes them move faster which might have led my coach to beleive they were lighter! Im a genius.... only kidding!
 
Ok maybe my coach wasn't right about a laser being lighter but i still believe the European boats are better made. They can be the same weight yet also be stiffer than american boats. Which makes them move faster which might have led my coach to beleive they were lighter! Im a genius.... only kidding
 
Ok maybe my coach wasn't right about a laser being lighter but i still believe the European boats are better made. They can be the same weight yet also be stiffer than american boats. Which makes them move faster which might have led my coach to beleive they were lighter! Im a genius.... only kidding!!!
 
However, it would be great, if all the Laserites of TLF that join the races of Roses/ESP would be so kind, to share, here later on, their experience they have with the hulls of PSE compared to those of their continent (NA, AUS/NZL, JPN, South America), related to the question of differences (f.e. stiffness), thanks.

I suspect that in Roses we will all be sailing European boats. The Europeans will bring their own, and those of us from other continents will be using charter boats from Europe.

That's why it's so tough to get objective information on the differences between the boats made on different continents. The top guys get some experience sailing the boats on different continents and form their subjective opinions. But I doubt there's ever been a regatta where you could really assess the performance of the US, UK and Australian boats side by side.
 
I suspect that in Roses we will all be sailing But I doubt there's ever been a regatta where you could really assess the performance of the US, UK and Australian boats side by side.

Which actually raises an important aspect to the debate - does it matter if European boats are stiffer/faster/whatever. If the two (or 3 if you include Aus boats) never actually race against each other, then nobody has any competitive advantage and everybody is racing on equal equipment, equal basis so it is still very true to the One Design concept.

Given that any differences are minor (same shape, same weight, same materials, same design, etc.) they can all be Lasers and the fact that due to the nature of the world (or rather shipping costs) they never meet means everybody can be happy.

Ian
 
I suspect that in Roses we will all be sailing European boats. The Europeans will bring their own, and those of us from other continents will be using charter boats from Europe.

That's why it's so tough to get objective information on the differences between the boats made on different continents. The top guys get some experience sailing the boats on different continents and form their subjective opinions. But I doubt there's ever been a regatta where you could really assess the performance of the US, UK and Australian boats side by side.

Old Geezer,
"things go deeper". All I know PSE changed the hull construction, I guess in the beginning of the 90ties. A Laserite of GER had a special selfmade roof rack for his car, where his old PSE hull has been perfect balanced on it. He got a new hull of PSE. But first time he car topped this hull, this hull was out of balance at that roof rack. The reason only can be: the center of weight of the new hull is not the same compared to the old hull. This means: newer PSE hulls have "more weight" at different areas of the hull compared to an old hull of PSE. The total weight of the hulls not have changed. But we supose, at the bow of the newer hulls there is less wrought fibreglass/resin than at the areas behind of the cockpit. At the old 46438 I owned, the side-walls at the bow have been stiffer than at my newer 171442. At that areas one can dent the walls at the newer hull, but doing the same at the old hull it not has ben possible easy to dent the walls. Do we have one designed hulls, hm?? Next aspect of view: mast fall. For a long time the mast-fall at PSE hulls has been a criteria to measure a hull to be fast or slow. Now PSE uses a jig/template to guarantee that all their hulls have the same mastfall to forward/back. But do we only see new hulls of PSE at the races? By the way, I guess PSE not use jig/templates for the mast fall to the sides ... What do we have to proove at the store before we pay a new hull, hm??
I am also not sure about this aspect: "Do common Laserites get the best boats?" All I know, it's just a hearsay, there are specialists of the several national sailing federations, that choose (and before measure everything) hulls (and also: sails, foils, spars) for the pro team of their nation, if the new Laser-stuff come from PSE to the stores. The only way to get such a fast hull is: to buy one from a pro and hope this pro not used this hull much (my 171442 is such a hull :) ).

So, for me, there ARE differences between hulls, even if one only compare PSE hulls. But, there is hope. At real big events, such as Olympic races, all hulls (and also: sails, foils, spars) are preselected by the organizer and the out-of-the-boat-box-builder themself.

Cheers
LooserLu
 

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