Class Politics Electronic Compasses

Deimos

Member
Is it time the rule about electronic compasses was "relaxed". I ask only as, I was looking for a new sailing watch the other day and was surprised how many included digital compasses. Not all and it is certainly not difficult to find a watch without one. However, given how common they are and, in my opinion how useless the compass part really is, I wonder if the Laser rules should allow integrated compass/digital compasses. I bet some people are sailing with them anyway.


Not suggesting that the class adopt hi-tech digital tactical compasses. Myself I would still prefer a good traditional style compass.


Ian
 
The relevant rule says, "One compass is permitted mounted on any part of the deck or the cockpit provided that the hull cavity is not pierced by anything other than the fasteners. Compasses shall not be fitted to inspection ports. Electronic and digital compasses are prohibited."

Like so many rules that have been drafted poorly and changed over the years, this is somewaht ambiguous. Is it saying that, "You may only mount one compass on the boat....but you can wear as many as you like attached to various parts of your person? Or is it saying, "You can have one compass but if you do you must mount it on the boat and not have it attached to your wrist, ankle, ear or other appendage"?

I can't believe that the authors intended the second meaning. After all a compass attached to your wrist is of absolutely no practical value while Laser sailing, so why state the obvious? So the rule must have the first meaning of my two alternatives.

So now we have establised that you can legally wear as many compasses as you like, we have to question whether the last sentence of the rule applies to the one compass mounted on the boat or to the multiplicity of compasses attached to your person.

Is the fact that this sentence refers to plural compasses relevant to this question? Probably not, as the previous sentence also refers to plural compasses which in this case would be attached to inspection ports and the rule has already stated that only one compass can be mounted on the boat.

(By the way, why was it necessary to have a rule banning compasses on inspection ports? I can't imagine.)

Once again the rule is ambiguous. It's not clear whether the ban on digital compasses refers to the deck mounted one or the body-mounted many. As far as I know there is very little restriction in the rules on what one may wear. I don't think it even mentions that you can or cannot wear a watch, and if so what functions that watch may have. There is no ban on chronographs or wake-up alarms, or count-down timers or calendars or address books or digital egg timers. So I would say there is a strong presumption that the rule does not apply to electronic devices that you wear on your person.

So there is no need to relax the rule. Feel free to wear a watch with a digital compass. I can't imagine how it could possibly help you on the race course other than finding your way home in fog perhaps.

I am not an official measurer. My opinion has no weight. Believe me at your own peril.
 
If you search the forum with 'digital compass' as the entry, you will see that this issue has been discussed several times in recent years.
 
I think this is an annual discussion for the ILCA Technical Committee... In the beginning the electronic/digital compasses were not allowed because they were considered too expensive (in comparison to analog compases). Prices came down but electronic/digital compasses added tactical functions... Now you can buy electronic/digital compasses without tactical functions that are only a little more expensive than analog compasses... well, I guess not everywhere since enough objection remains (still in terms of price) in other regions to keep them from getting approved.

OG is right to add a disclaimer to his post... the current ILCA Chief Measurer does take it literally that you are not allowed to have a compass as part of your digital watch (though I'd dearly love to know how you use such a compass to make tactical decisions). This used to be posted at www.laserinternational.org as part of the web pages for the various world championships but I don't see it there right now (with just a cursory look).

One day it will happen...

On the other hand... I really prefer an analog compass myself, especially being able to site things from other angles. But that is off topic, really.
 
I think this is an annual discussion for the ILCA Technical Committee... In the beginning the electronic/digital compasses were not allowed because they were considered too expensive (in comparison to analog compases). Prices came down but electronic/digital compasses added tactical functions... Now you can buy electronic/digital compasses without tactical functions that are only a little more expensive than analog compasses... well, I guess not everywhere since enough objection remains (still in terms of price) in other regions to keep them from getting approved.

OG is right to add a disclaimer to his post... the current ILCA Chief Measurer does take it literally that you are not allowed to have a compass as part of your digital watch (though I'd dearly love to know how you use such a compass to make tactical decisions). This used to be posted at www.laserinternational.org as part of the web pages for the various world championships but I don't see it there right now (with just a cursory look).

One day it will happen...

On the other hand... I really prefer an analog compass myself, especially being able to site things from other angles. But that is off topic, really.
 
Tracy you are repeating yourself
Tracy you are repeating yourself

OG>> The answer is always the same. If the rules don't say you can do something...You cannot.
You may have one comapss.

The rule never says you may have multiple comapsses. The rule does have redundancy in that it says you cannot have "compasses" fitted to inspection ports.\\

and

, what would that fitting be like?

Would the tailor ask the compass whether it's needle hangs right or left?
 
Personally I prefer an ordinary analogue compass. I'd also be quite happy for others to have digital compasses. Those using wrist watch compasses would probably find them less useful with regard to completing the course as quickly as possible. I'd love others to have devices with loads of buttons as these often prove a complete distraction and people being preoccupied with pressing buttons might give me a chance to catch-up a bit.


I mention it more to allow people greater freedom in choosing a sailing watch rather than changing the rule to allow digital compasses. I'm no expert on expressing rules but something like "personal wrist watches that include a compass function may be worm" (and if people want to wear 20 then good luck to them as one of the 20 might "point north").


Ian
 
OG>> The answer is always the same. If the rules don't say you can do something...You cannot.

Quite right gouvernail. I have been as vocal as anyone in drumming home this point to newbies who don't get it.

However.... does this principle really apply to what the sailor wears? As far as I can see the rules don't say you are allowed to wear a watch. They don't say you are allowed to wear hiking pants. They don't say you are allowed to wear hiking boots. For that matter they don't specifically say you are allowed to wear any specific item of cloth. If you applied the principle that "if the rules don't say you can do something...you cannot" absolutely strictly, then we would all be sailing naked.

Strangely enough, and once again an example of how the rules are ambiguous, the rules do specify the maximum weight of clothing, even though no specific item of clothing is specificially authorized and so any given item of clothing must be illegal under the principle enunciated by gouvernail.

I'm not sure how we can get an official ruling on this. Do I have to sail every race at the Masters Worlds naked and then file protests against the other 417 competitors for wearing clothes in clear violation of the Laser class rules in order to establish a test case? Don't make me do it. You don't want me to be the first naked Laser Master World Champion.

Clearly the above argument is total cobblers and bollards. This is what we used to call reductio ad absurdam in Jesuit maths classes. So the opposite must be true. You can wear anything you like, including ear rings, navel rings, nose rings, watches and compasses.

I am not an official measurer and my opinion has no weight.
 
Just to add a bit of confusion to the discussion... I have been playing with a Garmin GPS-72 on my boat. Jury rigged a compass-type mounting so it is displayed in front of the cockpit. Large readout - I can read it easily while hiking out. I usually display electronic compass (analog), speed, and VMG, all at the same time.

(For those who are thinking I should be banned from the Laser Class Association for all eternity, please note that I have been using this in practice, not in regattas.)

Cost of the unit: $130, which is $90 LESS than the conventional compass I see on APS. My point is that GPS needs to be included in the discussion since these days a GPS unit is considerably cheaper than a legal compass.

On a related note, a question. I attach one of the big Ronstan start watches to my mast for racing. Have always assumed that was OK, but now that I look in the rules, I do not see anything allowing it. Am I violating the laws of Nature and the LCA??

David

* Note that, if you are willing to spend $400 (less than a new sail), you can get a unit from Velocitek that is a GPS, start watch, and has the capability to tell you your distance from the start line (http://www.sailgps.com/news.php). Come to think of it, with a little creativity, I might be able to do that with mine...
 
Right now I am about half a mile from (where) the start line (should be set) .....fpor spome lame reason none is set right now...We had lots of fun races last night. Why are we having none tonight?
Whose idea was this day off from sailing?
 
Just to add a bit of confusion to the discussion... I have been playing with a Garmin GPS-72 on my boat. Jury rigged a compass-type mounting so it is displayed in front of the cockpit. Large readout - I can read it easily while hiking out. I usually display electronic compass (analog), speed, and VMG, all at the same time.

(For those who are thinking I should be banned from the Laser Class Association for all eternity, please note that I have been using this in practice, not in regattas.)

Cost of the unit: $130, which is $90 LESS than the conventional compass I see on APS. My point is that GPS needs to be included in the discussion since these days a GPS unit is considerably cheaper than a legal compass.

On a related note, a question. I attach one of the big Ronstan start watches to my mast for racing. Have always assumed that was OK, but now that I look in the rules, I do not see anything allowing it. Am I violating the laws of Nature and the LCA??

David

* Note that, if you are willing to spend $400 (less than a new sail), you can get a unit from Velocitek that is a GPS, start watch, and has the capability to tell you your distance from the start line (http://www.sailgps.com/news.php). Come to think of it, with a little creativity, I might be able to do that with mine...

Yeah just do a MOB on each end of the line set up a route between the two and then look at the XTE. However - you can probably be more accurate just using a transit and your eyeballs ;)

On another note I think the velocitek is really over hyped...

The only thing it gives you over a normal GPS is the VMG, which relies on a preprogrammed wind direction and is therefore meaningless. Oh well!
 
I use a programmable Tactick in my other class and theoretically can see no advantage over the analogue compass I use in my Laser. In fact I didn't fit it for 2 years, as I couldn't see any advantage. Now it is in I find it that so much easier. You glance up and it says 10 degree header and you know you gotta consider a tack. Now all our competitive boats have got them and guys who haven't picked the right shift for years are getting 3 or 4 right in a row. It is easier - well that's a great advantage if you’re the only one using one. If everyone has one that is one less skill to master. Ban the things forever! Anyone who is convinced they are no advantage won't mind the ban; anyone who thinks they are an advantage will accept the ban if no one else is using them!
 
I would ban coach boats before I would ban compasses. Coach boats cost lots more and have a much more profound impact on a sailor's ability to compete.

Consider the guy who brings his own Laser to the regatta, loads it with supplies for the day and heads out from San Diego YC. The sailing day at SDYC can often begin at 9 am and end at five PM.
A sailor with no coach boat must supply himself for teh entire day and carry those supplies around all day. The coach boat less sailor must stay on his little Laser deck for the entire 8 hours.

The guy with the coach boat brings nothing, does not put on his hiking pants because the wind for the first race may be light, and after that first race he ties his Laser to the coach boat, reclines on soft cushions, possibly changes his clothing, snoozes a bit, listens to the weather reports, listens to wha tehe coach saw others doing, eats and drinks stuff he did not have on his laser for that first race, and then , after putting on his hiking pants, heads out for the next race.

I have gone well past the obvious. A coach boat can cost a few hundred thousand dollars and be just fine...A $100 digital compass gives an unfair advantage...

Yeah ...Right.
 
Gouv, as ever I agree with you entirely but haven't sailed at the dizzy heights of 'Coach Boat' aid since my windsurfing days more than 20 years ago so its not an issue for me. I reiterate that it isn't the cost of the programmable compass for me but the erosion of skill required to get round the course quickly.
 
At the Open Meeting this weekend the "coach boat" was invaluable. We were racing on a lake with a fleet of Optimists as well (same course and starting 5 mins before us). Fortunately the instructor was using a rescue boat to wizz round telling the Opis what to do. She even towed one out of my way. I thought it was excellent. A fantastic opportunity of the kids to experience decent racing (with a lot of boats at close quarters). They could all have great fun learn loads and come away feeling positive having not been involved in any "incidents" with another fleet.

Don't seem to be "club racing" here, just open meetings/regattas (no "Spring Series" or "Wed eve series") and for kids to get started its a much bigger step into a open meeting/regatta (more boats, hotter competition, etc.). Thus the "protected" idea struck me as excellent. I don't think this was what was intended but its the way it worked in the end (1st time I've seen it, but the 1st time I've shared a course with Opis).

We need the Optimist sailors coming through enjoying the sport and I was well impressed with the way last weekend was done. Plus all the Opi sailors got a prize and went hope happy and positive.

(All of which was a bit "off-topic").

However, in terms of the coach boats helping specific Lasers (between racing) and buzzing around during the race then I agree they should be banned. Whilst they should keep out of your way, you still have something else to keep an eye open for (I believe there have been very serious incidents). Basically the examples above - having a floating rest and recovery room at your disposal has got to help when on the water for 8 hours. Trouble is that my next comment is that those with the money have an advantage as they can recover between races. And then we end-up banning people who have to drive too far to a regatta because they might be more tired and at a disadvantage - it gets difficult.

I just think they sound like a real pain.

Ian
 
In working in Healthcare for 20 years, we have learned that you can really "over policy" things, making it much more difficult for people to do thier work. If you write a rule for everything, then you have shot yourself in the foot. You will always have someone else who will pose another rule bending question/part/sail/coach boat/compass dilemma that just absolutly has to have a rule. This type of behavior is detrimental to this class. The rules are way too strict as it is(IMHO), and they(the rules) still dont make it "The fairest one design class" by any means.
I sailed my first Laser regatta this weekend, and all the boats were different. Old rigs, new rigs, heavy boats, light boats, new sails, old sails blah blah blah. For those who say this is "strict one design", I say BS. Do you not think some of those boats have an advantage? The poor guy with the old vang has the same advantage as the guy with the 07 Laser Pro?

Quit Killing your/my class with rules! I know its a strong class, but it could slip just as Hobie did 3 years ago. They banned all non Hobie boats from competing in thier regattas, the class has almost folded, and there are only a few all Hobie regattas left in the country! NACRA, Capricorn, and Blade got a boost in sells.
I was sent the APS email today with thier sale items and clicked onto the new Laser/Vangaurd boat page. Do you know how many new single hand hot boats are out there waiting to grab the Laser's place as "THE" boat to race?
Boat people like to fiddle with stuff, not necessarily trying to bend the rules, but to make thier boats easier, safer, and funner to sail. Do we really need all these rules to keep it fair? I had to print 21 pages of rules to compete this weekend, thats just wrong.
My suggestion....
Hull, one manufacturer
Spars, specific rules for material, length, OD and ID
Sails, Certified from the factory as computer cut and sewn per the class specs(Class legal from the factory or you lose your priviledge to build these sails). Open to any manufacturer, materials class approved.
Boards, class measured, limits on materials.

There you go, thats it, why else would you need more...oh yeah, to be fair.....BS again

Flame away!
 
It's true, I hear it all the time.

we tell it like it is, but no one wants to hear it....
 
---snip---
I sailed my first Laser regatta this weekend, and all the boats were different. Old rigs, new rigs, heavy boats, light boats, new sails, old sails blah blah blah. For those who say this is "strict one design", I say BS. Do you not think some of those boats have an advantage? The poor guy with the old vang has the same advantage as the guy with the 07 Laser Pro?

---snip---
Boat people like to fiddle with stuff, not necessarily trying to bend the rules, but to make thier boats easier, safer, and funner to sail. Do we really need all these rules to keep it fair? I had to print 21 pages of rules to compete this weekend, thats just wrong.
My suggestion....
Hull, one manufacturer
Spars, specific rules for material, length, OD and ID
Sails, Certified from the factory as computer cut and sewn per the class specs(Class legal from the factory or you lose your priviledge to build these sails). Open to any manufacturer, materials class approved.
Boards, class measured, limits on materials.

There you go, thats it, why else would you need more...oh yeah, to be fair.....BS again

Flame away!

Of course the boats will be different. That's the owner (skippers) choice. But...Any of the older boats without pro rigging or old sails could update their boats and be exactly the same as a new boat. The rules are defining what the ceiling is on upgrades/changes. So, IMHO that keeps it a strict OD class..

As soon as you open up one aspect (as it appears you would like to see with the rigging), it means that some of the fiddlers will look for ways to gain an advantage (which you already imply by saying someone sailing with a new vang has over someone with the old vang) but w/o a rule to control what the ceiling is, it can quickly turn into an arms race...

Bottom line is the Laser class rules are, by design, meant to eliminate 90% or more of the fiddling and let the sailors focus on just sailing the boat and focus on "fiddling" with their own sailing skills
 
Do you really think that equipment/rigging can get that much better than the new stuff? I personally dont, but it can be refined, specifically internalize some of the rigging on the boom. I got caught twice in the outhaul and mainsheet on a tack(probably due to lack of time on the boat) and almost got pulled over backwards. Little things like that, not huge 10:1 sheeting systems or crazy backstay contraptions or things like that. Just some flexibility on how we run lines, and not making people buy Vanguard equipment at an overinflated price. That in itself would help some of us catch up to the Laser Pro rig specs without breaking the bank, thereby making it more one design than it supposedly is now.
If you think one design as hull, sails, spars, boards, and not as systems, then you right on track. But limiting a sailor to buying Vanguard equipment and things like that are what steers people away from this class. It almost did me when I read the rules, but I had a free boat and I rigged it close to what everyone else was doing, but still illegally in the eyes of the rules.

Dont get me wrong, Im all about one design racing, and I loved my frist taste of Laser racing, but maybe I have a different opinion what one design means to me than most.
 
I agree, one design should be sail, hull, blades, and spars. Anyone can make the sail, as long as it fits the rules, and ONLY ONE builder makes the hull, blades, and spars. I see absolutely no reason for there to be rules for control's.

I bet that if you could do it your own way, a lot more people would be racing because they could rig what they want, instead of having to shell out the big bucks.

you want a 10:1 DH, great! internal OH, even better! I still want a bolt rope foot on the sail, so it just feeds into the boom, and end the clew strap stuff, and that seem entirely reasonable to me, and could also be discussed to mast's. I think as long as the boom and mast meet the specified bend characteristic's, then anything can go.

you want a 4:1 rear style mainsheet, or 6:1 center mainsheet, great, do whatever. I seriously think it doesent make a difference, neither is faster.

want a digital compass? good idea!
 
I agree, one design should be sail, hull, blades, and spars. Anyone can make the sail, as long as it fits the rules, and ONLY ONE builder makes the hull, blades, and spars. I see absolutely no reason for there to be rules for control's.

I bet that if you could do it your own way, a lot more people would be racing because they could rig what they want, instead of having to shell out the big bucks.

you want a 10:1 DH, great! internal OH, even better! I still want a bolt rope foot on the sail, so it just feeds into the boom, and end the clew strap stuff, and that seem entirely reasonable to me, and could also be discussed to mast's. I think as long as the boom and mast meet the specified bend characteristic's, then anything can go.

you want a 4:1 rear style mainsheet, or 6:1 center mainsheet, great, do whatever. I seriously think it doesent make a difference, neither is faster.

want a digital compass? good idea!

I think you want to sail a Finn.
 
Laser North Americans 2007.....92 boats (plus 109 Radials and 20 4.7s)

Finn North Americans 2007......23 boats.

Simple boat = bigger fleet.

Bigger fleet = better competition.

Better competition = better racing.

Better racing = more fun.
 
Dont get me wrong, I'm all about one design racing, and I loved my first taste of Laser racing, but maybe I have a different opinion what one design means to me than most.

The Laser is a different kind of one design.

One of the attractions of the Laser for most owners is that the class rules are very strict and that the boat is one design. The Laser philosophy incorporated in the rules is that we want to go sailing, not waste time fiddling with boats. We want to win races on the water using our skill, not by trying to find a way round the rules that will give us an advantage.
The Class Rules are written to prevent any changes from the standard boat that might affect performance, so that on the water each boat is the same. The few changes to the standard boat that are allowed are minor and only to allow for a few options that make racing the Laser more comfortable and enjoyable.

Over the years the class has refused to make changes to the rules that allow more expensive or complicated equipment or which makes older boats redundant.

If you feel you want to change something on a Laser - STOP
Ask yourself why you want to do it? If the answer is “to make me go faster” there is a very good chance the modification or addition is illegal!

If you race a Laser that has a change or addition not allowed by the class rules you will be disqualified from the race. Ignorance of the rules is no defense.

In our sport in every club and class there is the odd person who needs to cheat to win. Cheating is doing something that you know is illegal. Whether you gain an advantage or not is irrelevant.

Our class is strong and popular because we believe in a strict one design and our sailors want to know that they are racing on equal terms. The ILCA takes a very strong line with Laser sailors who do not sail according to the rules. There have been cases in the past where sailors who have sailed with illegal boats have been banned from sailing a Laser. Such a ban can be for life.

If action is also taken under the racing rules, the ban can cover racing in any boat.

Our class is much bigger than the odd person who wants to gain advantage by illegally changing the Laser or its equipment. They can sail in other classes where the rules allow changes to a boat to get an advantage. We do not want them with us.
 
I do! have you ever read any of my posts??

I know you do. I have read many of your posts. I am much better suited to a Finn given my size, but I can't afford both boats and I would hate to give up sailing in big fleets for sailing in small fleets a couple of times a year.
 
I agree, one design should be sail, hull, blades, and spars. Anyone can make the sail, as long as it fits the rules, and ONLY ONE builder makes the hull, blades, and spars. I see absolutely no reason for there to be rules for control's.

I bet that if you could do it your own way, a lot more people would be racing because they could rig what they want, instead of having to shell out the big bucks.

you want a 10:1 DH, great! internal OH, even better! I still want a bolt rope foot on the sail, so it just feeds into the boom, and end the clew strap stuff, and that seem entirely reasonable to me, and could also be discussed to mast's. I think as long as the boom and mast meet the specified bend characteristic's, then anything can go.

you want a 4:1 rear style mainsheet, or 6:1 center mainsheet, great, do whatever. I seriously think it doesent make a difference, neither is faster.

want a digital compass? good idea!

To use a car analogy, everyone else is driving this:

1972_Ford_Mustang_Mach1_Yellow_sf11.jpg


But Ross and Powergroove want to be driving this:

knuttz_ueba_12.jpg
 
You Sir are clearly mistaken if you belive that one fleet is better than the other based only on fleet size. So much ignorance.... Have you ever even sailed a Finn? And you do know the Laser is a steping stone boat right? As is the Finn. Lots move from their junior trainer, to the Laser, to the Finn, to the Star. Look at Ben Ainslie, Robert Schiedt, and Mark Mendleblatt amoung others.
 
You Sir are clearly mistaken if you belive that one fleet is better than the other based only on fleet size. So much ignorance.... Have you ever even sailed a Finn? And you do know the Laser is a steping stone boat right? As is the Finn. Lots move from their junior trainer, to the Laser, to the Finn, to the Star. Look at Ben Ainslie, Robert Schiedt, and Mark Mendleblatt amoung others.

I have sailed all three boats, although I have only really raced the Laser and Star (having sailed at least one North American Championship in each class).

Although the Laser might be a "steping [sic] stone boat" for top sailors, it is THE class to sail for high quality big fleet racing at all levels.

I'm sure the Finn is a great boat to race, but like the Star, it is much more expensive to own than a Laser, and racing in big fleets requires too much traveling for me.
 
My car analogy images are being blocked. So here it is with a new, but equivalent image:

To use a car analogy, everyone else is driving this:

1972_Ford_Mustang_Mach1_Yellow_sf11.jpg


But Ross and Powergroove want to be driving this:
splash_stage3_yellow.jpg
 
Chris, just want race a Laser with controls that are safe and easy and dont have to be purchased at an overinflated price, thats it. You want to be ban me for life from racing Laser's already? Damn son, I have heard about a-holes in the Laser class, I guess I found one. Funny how I didnt find one at the ragatta this weekend, I guess the ones that actually sail are cool, the ones that just tear down all the newbies on this forum are the real a-holes Ive heard about....
 
Chris, just want race a Laser with controls that are safe and easy and dont have to be purchased at an overinflated price, thats it. You want to be ban me for life from racing Laser's already? Damn son, I have heard about a-holes in the Laser class, I guess I found one. Funny how I didnt find one at the ragatta this weekend, I guess the ones that actually sail are cool, the ones that just tear down all the newbies on this forum are the real a-holes Ive heard about....

Actually, Powergroove, my previous post did not contain my personal opinions...it was an exact quote from the first page of the International Laser Class Association Rules. The same rules that you should be reading to determine if any of your suggestions are allowable.
 
I agree, one design should be sail, hull, blades, and spars. Anyone can make the sail, as long as it fits the rules, and ONLY ONE builder makes the hull, blades, and spars. I see absolutely no reason for there to be rules for control's.

I bet that if you could do it your own way, a lot more people would be racing because they could rig what they want, instead of having to shell out the big bucks.

you want a 10:1 DH, great! internal OH, even better! I still want a bolt rope foot on the sail, so it just feeds into the boom, and end the clew strap stuff, and that seem entirely reasonable to me, and could also be discussed to mast's. I think as long as the boom and mast meet the specified bend characteristic's, then anything can go.

you want a 4:1 rear style mainsheet, or 6:1 center mainsheet, great, do whatever. I seriously think it doesent make a difference, neither is faster.

want a digital compass? good idea!

Ross you are welcome to and entitled to all these things in my view. May I recommend the following website: - http://www.yachtsandyachting.com/classes/
You should find a whole variety of classes that will meet your needs.

You may also like to consider this site: -http://www.annamariavolpi.com/ if you wish to remain on course for the 2012 Olympics in a single-handed class that meets your needs and therefore need to gain weight for the Finn. (In essence the Finn has a strict hull and sail plan measurement rule but how you comply to that or rig it is pretty open. Anyone can build any part to a spec or rule – that’s what you’re asking for isn’t it?)

There are so many choices of class of boat that allow infinite options - if that's what you want go sail one (I do much of the time). The Laser is unique - mess with it at your peril!
 
Damn son, I have heard about a-holes in the Laser class, I guess I found one. Funny how I didnt find one at the ragatta this weekend, I guess the ones that actually sail are cool, the ones that just tear down all the newbies on this forum are the real a-holes Ive heard about....

Powergroove, this is a personal attack--not allowed on TLF. Cease and desist.
 

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