Downwind technique 20kt

pugwash

Member
So after slogging uphill towards the topmark in 20kts, I let off vang, cunningham, outhaul and pull up daggerboard halfway - let out main as fast as I can while I bear away keeping the boat as flat as possible. Up she pops onto the plane, heading downwind - then splash - big deathroll that I cannot control by sheeting in and bearing away.

Should I keep on more vang? Should I broad reach down the course like a skiff?

Ideas?
 
20 isnt that bad, but here a few steps

1. Let off the vang about half way BEFORE you get to the weather mark
2. In REALLY heavy air, i leave the cunningham and outhaul on. I might even not take the board up
3. Squat in your cockpit. Try not to sit on the rail much
4. keep a tight coarse.
 
dh and oh on, and keep some vang on, head up so your not going directly ddw, you want to be riding the waves, if you go ddw your asking for a death roll
 
Don't let your main out past 90degrees or it will want to death roll. Ross's advice about not going ddw is good too for heavy airs
 
Set the vang so the top batten's about parallel to the boom, not twisted off past it.

If the boat starts to roll to windward, yank in some mainsheet and steer more to leeward.
 
Going by the lee is also much more stable than ddw. Make your transitions fast so you spend as little time as possible going ddw. Also, hook your back leg around the hiking strap to lock in and have your front foot against the front of the cockpit so you can slide back quickly when you get on a wave. If the boat feels unstable, work even harder to get on a wave so your apparent wind decreases and you can regain control.
 
It is never worth lifting the C/B up in anything above 10Knot and almost ddw. It isn't the best designed in the world so you need all the forward drive possible! Even on a reach.
 
- let out main as fast as I can while I bear away keeping the boat as flat as possible. Up she pops onto the plane, heading downwind - then splash - big deathroll that I cannot control by sheeting in and bearing away.

Perhaps it bears mentioning that you don't want to turn downwind too quickly. You need to fall off to a reach first to pick up speed. The reason is that if you simply spin your boat downwind in 20 knots, with virtually no speed, your sail will feel all 20 knots of breeze-- hence tend to be difficult to control. On the other hand, if you build speed on a deep reach first-- say, 10 knots-- then when you turn downwind, the rig will only feel 10 knots, and so therefore be much easier to control. It's paradoxical until you've done it for a while, but while going downwind, you want to be going as fast as possible to keep the speed of the apparent wind (what you feel) as low as possible.

Hope that helps,

sean
 
It is never worth lifting the C/B up in anything above 10Knot and almost ddw. It isn't the best designed in the world so you need all the forward drive possible! Even on a reach.

Thats so not true, it's not even funny. You have to bring your board up, orthe boat will "trip" over itself. I can't explain it too well, but all my coaches have told that to me, you have to experience it for yourself to truly understand it. I still raise my board in 35 knots.
 
Thats so not true, it's not even funny. You have to bring your board up, orthe boat will "trip" over itself. I can't explain it too well, but all my coaches have told that to me, you have to experience it for yourself to truly understand it. I still raise my board in 35 knots.

I agree 100% with you! You have to play the centre board to regain some control on a run otherwise it can trip you up if its too far down, ie: if its up and you start rolling, try putting it down briefly as well as sheeting in to regain some control. Works for me! I do agree on reaching down the run to gain boat speed too, in other words sail the angles, its faster. Also, read the Ben ainslie book, its £20 well spent! :) R.
 
I do agree on reaching down the run to gain boat speed too, in other words sail the angles, its faster. :) R.

Jings! There's one I sort of got right by guesswork and playing! :) Maybe I should have put it in to practice last Wednesday on the runs to the rednwhite, broad reach pointing at The Perch, an early gybe then a broad reach to rednwhite, hardening up on to the leg back to the clubhouse.

If the same wind this Wed coming, I'll give it a bash!

Al.
 
Jings! There's one I sort of got right by guesswork and playing! :) Maybe I should have put it in to practice last Wednesday on the runs to the rednwhite, broad reach pointing at The Perch, an early gybe then a broad reach to rednwhite, hardening up on to the leg back to the clubhouse.

If the same wind this Wed coming, I'll give it a bash!

Al.

Damn it! Have i just given away my secrets? Thats it... Protest!! :p R.
 
You can still go DDW in heavy air...why the hell not? You just better make sure you are surfing a wave to unload that rig as much as possible. Still let off your cunningham for sure. Maybe not to the point of wrinkles in the sleeve of your sail at the mast joint, as in light air, but for sure let it off. Also, having your centreboard raised is necessary. Along with the stuff everyone else has said, it will also make turning much easier.
 
One of the things that works well for me in conditions that prevent "aggressive" downwind sailing is to cleat the main at around 80-85 degrees, board up about 8-10", and sail the boat by the lee by pressure felt. I'll usually have my back hand near the tiller extention swivel and my forward hand in front of my chest. Yes, keeping cuningham and outhaul on is good when overpowered. Vang on about halfway.
It is not quite as fast as pumping and big S-turns, but when the boat is more powerful than you can control, this technique works very well. You can control the pressure by sailing down in the puff and up in the lulls or when you are going fast on a wave. Gybe when you are unloaded, and gybe often since your course is deeper than normal. Sounds funny, but try it, I know it will work.
 
You can still go DDW in heavy air...why the hell not?

The problem with going ddw is that the wind never comes from the same direction all the time. The wind always moves slightly. This means that when going ddw you end up being by the lee, then broad reaching ..... This is not good as the boat starts behaving differently making it hard to control.
 
The problem with going ddw is that the wind never comes from the same direction all the time. The wind always moves slightly. This means that when going ddw you end up being by the lee, then broad reaching ..... This is not good as the boat starts behaving differently making it hard to control.

The wind would most likely not shift in such a large fashion that would not allow you to easily compensate for it. And, actually, by the lee is very stable in big breeze, just make sure you're sheet is not going out past 90 degrees, maybe a tad further if you need to be hard by the lee.
 
Thats so not true, it's not even funny. You have to bring your board up, orthe boat will "trip" over itself. I can't explain it too well, but all my coaches have told that to me, you have to experience it for yourself to truly understand it. I still raise my board in 35 knots.

It's quite simple really, the boat moves a bit sideways when you turn wile planing and if you have the board down it will trip over it if the boat turns just a little =P
 
One of the things that works well for me in conditions that prevent "aggressive" downwind sailing is to cleat the main at around 80-85 degrees, board up about 8-10", and sail the boat by the lee by pressure felt. I'll usually have my back hand near the tiller extention swivel and my forward hand in front of my chest. Yes, keeping cuningham and outhaul on is good when overpowered. Vang on about halfway.
It is not quite as fast as pumping and big S-turns, but when the boat is more powerful than you can control, this technique works very well. You can control the pressure by sailing down in the puff and up in the lulls or when you are going fast on a wave. Gybe when you are unloaded, and gybe often since your course is deeper than normal. Sounds funny, but try it, I know it will work.

I could not disagree more with every point you have made.

-Cleating the main iany wind strength defies logic to me, it's not hard to hold the sheet downwind and it is much safer than having to dive forward to uncleat the mainsheet.
-Cunningham on downwind - having the cunningham on downwind pushes the draft of the sail towards the mast, increasing the tendency for the boat to want to lean to windward i.e. deathroll
-Gybe often? - Why? by the lee sailing means there is no need... just complicates the exercise and increases the risk of capsize
- I agree with the tiller steering position, except the forward hand really needs a mainsheet in it.

When I first read your post I thought you were only joking, but obviously not
 
I could not disagree more with every point you have made.

-Cleating the main iany wind strength defies logic to me, it's not hard to hold the sheet downwind and it is much safer than having to dive forward to uncleat the mainsheet.
-Cunningham on downwind - having the cunningham on downwind pushes the draft of the sail towards the mast, increasing the tendency for the boat to want to lean to windward i.e. deathroll
-Gybe often? - Why? by the lee sailing means there is no need... just complicates the exercise and increases the risk of capsize
- I agree with the tiller steering position, except the forward hand really needs a mainsheet in it.

When I first read your post I thought you were only joking, but obviously not

Have to agree. Reading that post I had a vision of a guy just sitting in the boat dead still and plowing through waves filling up the cockpit with water.
 
Yea... cleating the mainsheet terrifies me. A lot of guys in my YC do it with success but to me it seem to add only one more step to a sometimes hairy moment.

Also, when it comes to draft in the sail you never want the maximum point of draft past the mast. I ease my downhaul and outhaul as I round the mark and try to keep the draft of my sail between 1/3 and 1/2 way back from the mast. That seems to decrease the tendency of the boat to "death roll." Also, boom tends to stay between 80 and 85 degrees. At 90 degrees I've noticed that I get some additional turbulance without an increase in speed.

I tend to keep some vang on. The leech tesion seems to help... esp when your sailing by the lee.

And for god sakes!!!!! Play the centerboard!!!!!!!

Most important fact of laser downwind sailing in 20+ knots is that upright is faster than upside down!!!!
 
When its blowing a gale for the downwind I want my cunningham off, my kicker off (if I'm being a wimp I leave a tiny bit on and make sure I ease it before I gybe). I won't touch the outhaul - if its that windy you don't need to ease it when you bear off, you'll still fly. Board is pretty much left alone, I may raise it a touch but never a lot. Coaches go on about the board all the time but its the last thing you actually need to worry about I think.

As for cleating the main - are you serious?? That is asking for trouble, even when it is blowing a gale you should still be playing the main to help you steer through the waves. Cleating it is asking for a swim.
 
I actually know a guy who does cleat his main downwind. I believe he cleats it at the point of 90 degrees, probably a little bit more to allow for some play. This serves as a marker for him, and he is still able to play the sheet fine downwind. I guess the cleating would also serve as protection against dropping the main sheet when going downwind in breeze, which can often be disastrous.
 
I put a figure 8 knot in my sheet that will let the sail out a few degrees past 90. Then I take the tail end and tie it to the back of the hiking strap. Can't loose track of my main sheet.
 
I think most people would agree on the following for big downwind stuff (and even if they dont, its my 2c worth!)....

Board up until it's just below the boom (just incase i do the accidental gybe, although I never have) (yet!)
Cunningham (dh) right off (helps to keep the mast stiffer by reducing the compression - keeps the leech straighter)
Outhaul eased a bit (if i remember before the top mark, otherwise left alone)
Vang/kicker right off in waves, slightly tighter if flat water (helps to keep the boom out of the water)

Play the waves both broadreaching and BTL, according to the waves.
Try to avoid using the rudder to do the transitions as it slows the boat and loads up the rig - do it by heeling to windward (to bear off) or leeward (to head up).

and play the mainsheet! those little cleats are really only useful to hold the sheet on the beats while you get the rest of it untied from your ankles! aside from that, try to avoid using them!
 
I think most people would agree on the following for big downwind stuff (and even if they dont, its my 2c worth!)....

Board up until it's just below the boom (just incase i do the accidental gybe, although I never have) (yet!)

Ummmm...I disagree:eek:
 
Vang/kicker right off in waves, slightly tighter if flat water (helps to keep the boom out of the water)

I think it is better to tighten the vang when going through chop so that when the leech pops it is like an "auto pump" and isn't just spilling air from your sail. The vang should never be so tight that it catches in the water.
 
I think most people would agree on the following for big downwind stuff (and even if they dont, its my 2c worth!)....

Board up until it's just below the boom (just incase i do the accidental gybe, although I never have) (yet!)
Cunningham (dh) right off (helps to keep the mast stiffer by reducing the compression - keeps the leech straighter)
Outhaul eased a bit (if i remember before the top mark, otherwise left alone)
Vang/kicker right off in waves, slightly tighter if flat water (helps to keep the boom out of the water)

Play the waves both broadreaching and BTL, according to the waves.
Try to avoid using the rudder to do the transitions as it slows the boat and loads up the rig - do it by heeling to windward (to bear off) or leeward (to head up).

and play the mainsheet! those little cleats are really only useful to hold the sheet on the beats while you get the rest of it untied from your ankles! aside from that, try to avoid using them!

Disagree on the board position for BIG breeze. It provides stability and direction. With it up as high as you are mentioning there is NONE of it under the boat and in the water. You'll roll right over to weather in the first wave or puff you get. In big breeze you need some board down while off the breeze.

Also, disagree with no rudder movement when sailing downwind in BIG breeze, (big breeeze is the topic here). If you are making aggressive body movements to roll the boat to weather to drive a down turn you're gonna roll it right on top of you.

Smaller breeze these things are good, but in 20+ you're gonna spend more time upside down than right side up.
 
This is straight from olympic gold medalist ben ainsley so you know this is quality information.

1) Weight as far back in the boat as far as possible to prevent nose-diving

2) Dagger board down

3) basically just hold on. if the boat is planning just head straight for the mark sheet in and reach.

From my own personal experience:
if the boat starts rolling sheet in and head up QUICKLY!!! Dagger board down if the boat is planning, if the boat isn't pull up the board and head up. I always release the vang all the way (just above 90 degrees) because if the vang is on it hooks in the leech of the sail and keeps alot of power in the sail. mostly just keep on practicing and you will eventually get comfortable in those conditions.
 
This is straight from olympic gold medalist ben ainsley so you know this is quality information.

1) Weight as far back in the boat as far as possible to prevent nose-diving

2) Dagger board down

3) basically just hold on. if the boat is planning just head straight for the mark sheet in and reach.

From my own personal experience:
if the boat starts rolling sheet in and head up QUICKLY!!! Dagger board down if the boat is planning, if the boat isn't pull up the board and head up. I always release the vang all the way (just above 90 degrees) because if the vang is on it hooks in the leech of the sail and keeps alot of power in the sail. mostly just keep on practicing and you will eventually get comfortable in those conditions.

I agree with all 3 points particularly if you weigh under 170 lbs as he does. For the heavier sailors I feel you should have just a bit of board up, (about 1/4) especially when you have to jibe.

From recent/last weekend personal experience and from watching the "Boat Whisperer" CD I feel that when you begin to roll to weather you should bear away and sheet in a touch to stop the roll.
If you head up during the roll it will become more unstable, be more likely to flip and if you do successfully head up you are still going to need to get back down to get on course and that will be harder to do and mean you will have to sail even lower and/or jibe more than you may want or need to.

In addition, you should have some vang on. If your received the last "Laser Sailor" Anna, (our recent gold medal winner) did a little piece about vang tension when sailing DW. In breeze too little vang will cause the boat to be unstable and roll. So, when the breeze comes up put a little more vang on when going DW.
 
Wait a minute Rob...

"if you weigh under 170 lbs as he does"

Ben Ainsley? Really?

Sailing a Finn at 170 lbs?

I'm not disagreeing at all, but seriously?
 
Wait a minute Rob...

"if you weigh under 170 lbs as he does"

Ben Ainsley? Really?

Sailing a Finn at 170 lbs?

I'm not disagreeing at all, but seriously?

Yikes! You are correct. I recently saw that Ben put on 30 lbs for the Finn. I thought the quote was from Paul Goodson. However, the last time Ben was sailing the Laser I think he was around 170 lbs.
 
Yikes! You are correct. I recently saw that Ben put on 30 lbs for the Finn. I thought the quote was from Paul Goodson. However, the last time Ben was sailing the Laser I think he was around 170 lbs.

Haha I was gonna say. He would be fast in the light stuff though, no doubt about that.
 
When everybody talks about the sail at 90 degrees do they mean the boom or the most forward part of the sail or something between the two ?

Ian
 

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