Digital Compass Watch

Esteroali

Member
There is a Timex Digital watch that has a digital compass built in. Are these legal for regattas? Anyone know how accurate they are? Damien
 
Digital compasses are not allowed in the sunfish class. Watches with digital compasses, I would presume, would be considered not allowable, as well as the GPS "watches".
 
esteroali said:
There is a Timex Digital watch that has a digital compass built in. Are these legal for regattas? Anyone know how accurate they are? Damien

I realize this is academic for racing purposes, but how would you use such a gizmo, say for practice? Probably hard to read if attached to the splashboard.
 
Wavedancer said:
I realize this is academic for racing purposes, but how would you use such a gizmo, say for practice? Probably hard to read if attached to the splashboard.

and pretty useless if attached to your wrist
 
Indeed a wristwatch clock with compass is not going to help you much. It is better to open a port hole in front of the daggerboard trunk and use a classic racing compass.

Anyway I am still amazed how come that class does not allow a digital compass on board, like a Tactick. If we want to keep getting better this kind of improvements should be allowed.

F7
 
Mainly because most of the digital compasses are not JUST a compass. They have other features that take them out of the compass realm and into the "instramentation realm". Since it's almost impossible to check every digital for "extras" the Fish class simply said; nope, not allowed, rather than get into how and what spec's/features needed to check for.
 
mike4947 said:
Mainly because most of the digital compasses are not JUST a compass. They have other features that take them out of the compass realm and into the "instramentation realm". Since it's almost impossible to check every digital for "extras" the Fish class simply said; nope, not allowed, rather than get into how and what spec's/features needed to check for.


The TackTick T061 is a digital compass with a watch on it. No deep sounder, no speedo, just the compass. It is approved by many One Desgin Classes that are seriously thinking about going ahead with better racing.
 
mike4947 said:
Mainly because most of the digital compasses are not JUST a compass. They have other features that take them out of the compass realm and into the "instramentation realm". Since it's almost impossible to check every digital for "extras" the Fish class simply said; nope, not allowed, rather than get into how and what spec's/features needed to check for.


The TackTick T061 is a digital compass with a watch on it. No deep sounder, no speedo, just the compass. It is approved by many One Desgin Classes that are seriously thinking about going ahead with better racing.
 
Yeah - and what about us old guys with bad eyesight? We can read the big digits on a TackTick but it's really hard to see those little figures and lines on an analog compass. Come on Sunfish Class - get into the 20th century. The digital world is NOW.
 
mike4947 said:
The T061 also has other functions than a strict compass and timer: http://www.nav.ie/catalog/product_info.php?products_id=433
That's why the unit and it's predecessor were not allowed in the Sunfish class.
Not to mention at around $400 it ups the anti on costs for the class as well.

Confirmed: The Tacktick TK061 sells for $450 at APS; nothing to sneeze at. All the arguments why the class shouldn't accept an improved rudderblade (the Whitehurst developmental effort) apply (see a prior thread). And the Tacktick won't even improve boat handling!
 
mike4947 said:
The T061 also has other functions than a strict compass and timer: http://www.nav.ie/catalog/product_info.php?products_id=433

Are we seeing the same website? Exactly what other functions other than compass and timer are you seeing? Yes it has a "tactical scale" that reads the same on both tacks but many analog compasses have an equivalent feature - and they are legal.

Cost should not be an issue for the class to consider. If I choose to spend $600 on a drysuit or $500 on boat covers or $450 on a compass that's up to me. The compass does not change the fundamental nature of the boat (unlike the proposed rudder). It is simply a better designed version of an already legal option.
 
Having a red line on an analog compass is different that getting an exact number of degrees of header or lift displayed.
Another slight problem for the Fish is a mounting location. Doesn't work on the mast as the mast can rotate far enough between tacks to make viewing difficult; plus being difficult to reach to change modes. Seen a couple mounted to the top of the dagger board and becoming non fuctional after a rather severe seating of the daggerboard coming into the leeway mark putting the dagger board down in preperation for going upwind.

Also adding $400+ to a 10 grand boat isn't as much of a hardship commpared to adding one to a $800 used boat. Note that Laser, and Optimist also do NOT allow the Tacktick. All designed to be sailed rather than navigated.
 
mike4947 said:
Having a red line on an analog compass is different that getting an exact number of degrees of header or lift displayed.
Another slight problem for the Fish is a mounting location. Doesn't work on the mast as the mast can rotate far enough between tacks to make viewing difficult; plus being difficult to reach to change modes. Seen a couple mounted to the top of the dagger board and becoming non fuctional after a rather severe seating of the daggerboard coming into the leeway mark putting the dagger board down in preperation for going upwind.

Also adding $400+ to a 10 grand boat isn't as much of a hardship commpared to adding one to a $800 used boat. Note that Laser, and Optimist also do NOT allow the Tacktick. All designed to be sailed rather than navigated.


Yeah - and having a digital watch with an audible countdown feature is different from having an analog watch with no second hand. So what? Are you proposing that we ban digital watches next?

I assume that if a digital compass were allowed it would normally be mounted in front of the daggerboard in the V formed by the splash rail.

And last time I checked the Byte and the Force 5 were not 10 grand boats.
 
Neither the Byte or the Force V have a strong class association.
Also it's not the digital versus anolog; it's the features available. Anything beyond simple compass direction is considered "navigation instrumention" and is against the class rules.
TackTick did for a very short time make a simple digital compass without any other features, but no one would buy it so it quickly dropped off the market.

As for the watch issue, no one said you have to NOT have a second hand on an anolog watch. Compare apples to apples.
 
mike4947 said:
Neither the Byte or the Force V have a strong class association.
Also it's not the digital versus anolog; it's the features available. Anything beyond simple compass direction is considered "navigation instrumention" and is against the class rules.
TackTick did for a very short time make a simple digital compass without any other features, but no one would buy it so it quickly dropped off the market.

As for the watch issue, no one said you have to NOT have a second hand on an anolog watch. Compare apples to apples.

I fail to see what your derogatory comments about the Byte and Force 5 classes have to do with the price of apples. If the majority of Sunfish class members want to allow digital compasses we will force our officers to approve them. Whether we are strong or weak is irrelevant.

And you still haven't explained what is the fundamental difference between reading a tactical scale on a lubber line on an analog compass and reading the corresponding number on a digital compass. Seems to me it is exactly the same difference as trying to read when a second hand on an analog watch passes 12 as opposed to seeing a countdown to zero on a digital watch. Same information - just a different presentation but some people might find the digital presentation easier to use.
 
I simply meant there is no real class organization in those classes so just about anything goes, not a true one design with a class association that backs up the limits. The manufacturer's of most any class have no vested interest in maintaining a strict one design. It's maintained in the vast majority of cases by the class association.
A prime example is the Flying Scot class. They debated for about 6 years over not an equipment change but simply moving a cleat from the rail to the seat area.
After the comments about costs it seems a little silly to add $400+ for just a geewiz factor without any performance improvement.

JMHO, but after 30 years in the class even among devote hardcore racers I would say only about 5% of them ever used a compass.
 
To quote Mike
JMHO, but after 30 years in the class even among devote hardcore racers I would say only about 5% of them ever used a compass

I haven't been around the forum for a while but I think the 5% not using a compass can be found in the bottom couple of places. At any race in any class.
JMHO
John
 
That's 5% USING a compass, not 5% NOT using a compass and talking to folks that did have a compass mounted, about 1/2 had it just because or the "gee whiz, look what I've got" factor and had no real idea on how to use it.
In conversations and articles over the years with the "big guns" of the class most say the compass is needed more for "offshore" events where there are no "land" references visible from the course. There the compass becomes your point of reference, BUT we're still talking about sailing the boat not navigating it. Hence the exclussion of features other than the simple compass heading on digital units.
 
I never thought I would say this...go Geezer go.

I totally agree with you about the the Tactick compass referenced above. It offers all the same features as a standard compass but is more stable and easier to read. Many of us have the TackTick for use with our other boats already so there is no additional outlay of funds to use it on the Sunfish. I am totally in favor of seeing this approved by The Sunfish Class Association so how do we raise a big enough stink to overpower the likes of members with the same views as mike4947. Lets get this class into the 21st century people! You cant stop progress and if you do you are more likely to push members away.
 
dphoye said:
I never thought I would say this...go Geezer go.

I totally agree with you about the the Tactick compass referenced above. It offers all the same features as a standard compass but is more stable and easier to read. Many of us have the TackTick for use with our other boats already so there is no additional outlay of funds to use it on the Sunfish. I am totally in favor of seeing this approved by The Sunfish Class Association so how do we raise a big enough stink to overpower the likes of members with the same views as mike4947. Lets get this class into the 21st century people! You cant stop progress and if you do you are more likely to push members away.

Write to your Sunfish Class Regional Rep. Write to the members of the Advisory Council and the World Council. Write to the US Sunfish Class President. Write an article for the Windward Leg explaining why this rule change is a good idea. Take your TackTick along to Sunfish regattas and demonstrate it to other sailors (but don't race with it yet). Stand for office yourself so you can go to all the meetings and argue your case. Go to the NAs and raise this issue at the members AGM. Keep talking about it and campaigning for it.

It (rightly) takes a long time and a lot of effort to change Sunfish Class Rules. But it can done. Go for it.
 
For the record I am NOT against digital compasses. Only those that add navigation functions. Like I said before They did produce a simple compass only unit, but no one would buy it.
And please anyone who protested any change of the rudder because of cost do not pertition for a compass that costs over twice as much as a new rudder without any actual performance gain.
But, I'm not for either the navigation functions or an enhanced rudder.
 
Mike4947...please explain how the the TackTick model above has a navigation function. As a current owner of this compass all it has is the abilty to show you a single number on the display for each tack so you dont have to remember 2 numbers. That number is calculated off the current heading and the user setting the angle the boat tacks through. Its just a number and it is still up to the end user to determine if the heading shown on the compass is a lift or header. The compass does not remeber headings nor does it tell you if your lifted or headed. Please explain how that is any different than reading the a standard analog compass...and BTW the tactical card compass used my most Laser sailors has the same features but in a card compass and I am allowed to use that compass on a Sunfish. Makes no sense that the TackTick is not allowed.
 
That compass is the Tacktick T061, and APS has it for $449.00 (for the Old Geezer, that is four hundred forty nine dollars, not forty four dollars and 99 cents.) Given that many of the powers that be in the class want us to all have to fork over about $200 to get new vertical rudders to replace the perfectly good current rudders we have now, why not legalize these Tackticks? (I thought I might as well restart the rudder argument while discussing the compass!!)

The reality is a lot of the top sailors win without using a compass (I don't think Eduardo uses one, and I don't believe Donnie Martinborough, who has won the second most Worlds uses one either) so if an individual sailor thinks blowing $449 will help him/her out, so be it. If it helps even out the competition and they then manage to hang with Eduardo, all the better.

My guess is that the good sailors with old-fashioned compasses or no compass will still beat the less-good sailor with a $449 do-dad on their deck.

BB
 
The Tacktick can be set in tactical mode which gives a +/- number from a heading giving you navigational information in a direct mode as to whether you are headed or lifted. Note in pictures of the unit it has on the face "tack on plus".
 
I don't think you are right. I think the display choice you are talking about is a digital version of the blue and white Ritchie many of us use. It shows a single digit, and you read whether you are lifting or being headed reading the single digit, not a potential 3 digit compass bearing. The "tack on plus" written on the compass is no different than writing that on your deck with a marker in front of your regular compass. I am saying this based on visiting both the aps site and the tacktick site. If someone owns one of these they can tell us for sure.

All that said, if the people winning the worlds are doing so without a compass at all, I doubt that someone who is not already competitive in the class will become so just because they have a digital compass. It is a little more complicated than that.

BB
 
Mike4947...you are 100% compeletely wrong. The phrase "Tack on +" is simple a written reminder to the sailoer that on port tack you should tack when the number get higher. Its no different than writing a reminder on the deck with a grease pencil. The compass offers no memory feature. What they describe as a "tactical" mode is simple to display the same number on both tacks. As I mentioned in previous post the "tactical" number displayed is simply an adjusted heading based on the number of degrees the boat tacks through. The degrees the boat tacks through is set by the sailor and then the number is divided by two and simple added or subtracted from the real heading to give the same number on both tacks. That is what the "tactical" mode is. Also as I stated before the typcial tactical card compass used in the Laser class has the number on the card displayed this way. There is no difference so why are we not allowing the TackTick T061.

Lets here from a some class representatives on this. Based on the description above is there any reason not to allow the T061 other than the class rules currently prohibit use?
 
Got a call yesterday that clarified the digital issue for me.
I was reminded that even a card compass is a navigation device and of the class rules:
3.1.9 One or two compasses or stopwatches may be mounted on the deck so long as the watertight integrity of the hull is maintained.

4.3 The use of electronic navigational devices shall be prohibited.


So the use of non electric compasses is class legal, but any electronic navigation instumentation is prohibited.
 
mike4947 said:
Got a call yesterday that clarified the digital issue for me.
I was reminded that even a card compass is a navigation device and of the class rules:
3.1.9 One or two compasses or stopwatches may be mounted on the deck so long as the watertight integrity of the hull is maintained.

4.3 The use of electronic navigational devices shall be prohibited.


So the use of non electric compasses is class legal, but any electronic navigation instumentation is prohibited.

Interesting. The USGS definition of "navigation" is "the position of a platform at a specific time. The position is commonly a latitude, longitude pair." See http://walrus.wr.usgs.gov/infobank/programs/html/definition/nav.html

There is no way that the TackTick will tell you your latitude and longitude. So it is not an "electronic navigational device" and so is not prohibited under Sunfish Class rules.

Thanks for clearing that up Mike.
 
You edited the definition: "Navigation" (as used within the CMG InfoBank ) is the position of a platform at a specific time.
Since we aren't in the CMG InfoBank, nice try, but no cigar.
If you've taken (and mine was 35 years ago) a "navigation course" you'll remember that a compass is a navigation device. Try navigating without one.
Now if you want to haul along a sextant to plot your course that would maybe be acceptable in the class rules. LOL
 
I promised myself I would not let myself get sucked in to this lunacy, but I have:confused: ....I was hoping the Geezer was right and the issue could be settled, but I am afraid there is a strong counter-argument.

Below is the dictionary definition of navigation. The definition of navigation requires you to also know the definition of navigate, which is further below. Since as the skipper of my Sunfish I am planning and controlling (and mentally recording) the course of my vessel, I am navigating. If I use an electronic compass to help me do so, I have broken the Sunfish rules.

Further, the definition Geezer provided says it latitude and longitude are "commonly" used, implying there are other ways, and one of them could involve use of our beloved Tack Tick. After all this, I want to point out as I did yesterday that if I anyone wants to blow $450 on a compass in the hope that it will cause them to be slugging it out with Eduardo at the front of the pack next time, I say they should be able to and the rule should be changed.

Beldar

nav·i·ga·tion ( P ) Pronunciation Key (nv-gshn)
n.
The theory and practice of navigating, especially the charting of a course for a ship or aircraft.
Travel or traffic by vessels, especially commercial shipping.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
navi·gation·al adj.
navi·gation·al·ly adv.

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Source: The American Heritage® Dictionary of the English Language, Fourth Edition
Copyright © 2000 by Houghton Mifflin Company.
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nav·i·gate ( P ) Pronunciation Key (nv-gt)
v. nav·i·gat·ed, nav·i·gat·ing, nav·i·gates
v. tr.
To plan, record, and control the course and position of (a ship or aircraft).
To follow a planned course on, across, or through: navigate a stream.

v. intr.
To control the course of a ship or aircraft.
To voyage over water in a boat or ship; sail.

To make one's way: navigated with difficulty through the crowd.
Informal. To walk: He was too unsteady on his legs to navigate.
 
i·ro·ny n. pl. i·ro·nies

1. The use of words to express something different from and often opposite to their literal meaning.
2. An expression or utterance marked by a deliberate contrast between apparent and intended meaning.
3. A literary style employing such contrasts for humorous or rhetorical effect.

Gotcha! :rolleyes:
 

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