daring youth vs. skilled maturity

R

ralfeez

New Member
Hello all,
I am new to Lasers and I am just wondering about your opinion on something. The youth seem to be in command of the tops spots in the fleet. I am learning that a Laser is a very physically demanding boat, but after years of sailing one it would seem like skill would win out over brawn. Things like being able to pick the correct line, knowing the fine tuning of the rig, knowing your competition, etc., etc., would be some of the advantages. At the very least, it seems as though it would be a toss up between youth and experience depending on the conditions for a particular race. So, my question to you is, why do the inexperience youth consistently win out over the finely tuned and mature sailors from years past. Give me specifics (hiking harder?, taking more chances?, pushing the limits?, ....what?). What do you think?
thanks,
Ralph
 
It's a complicated issue. However, I'll try and contribute something to the discussion.

In general, I've experienced that youngsters might have been more improving than the older sailors. Older guys sometimes get used to old habits, e.g Always keeping the cunningham tight.
This is a phenomenon I've experienced in another boat. I just came into that dinghy, from laser radial and I sailed on top of the fleet, just because I sailed faster than most of the fleet, by sailing with a looser traveller, on spots with big, short waves in conditions over 18 knots. (Don't try this in the laser, it won't work)
The other guys just didn't improve that much.

On top of that, I think that younger people might make smoother movements.. And since laser has a small cockpit, this is very important in my opinion.
Sometimes the younger sailors just have more experience in bigger fleets....such as sailing at very big optimist events.

Running has been changed through the years, by people like Ben Ainslie and Gustavo Lima. I can imagine that it's hard for older sailors to change you downwind style. Everyone's able to sail upwind...but people win races by running properly.

Please notice that my point of view is one-sided...since I'm 17 years old and sailing Standard I'm youth for myself.
 
Would you be willing to consider the following:
1. The "youth" that are coming up are usually starting to sail competitivly at age 10 or younger, with coaches etc. So by age 20 they have 10 years or more of sailing under their belts.
2. There is no substitute for time in the boat. Anybody with a 9-5 job is not going to be able to stay as finely tuned to the nuances of Laser sailing as someone that has the time to go sailing whenever they want. This includes boat handling and lots of short course racing such as you get in high school and college.
3. Pulling strings in the Laser ("fine tuning of the rig") is quickly learned either from other sailors or a coach as compared to other boats like the Star (even in that class, Laser and Finn sailors seem to be able to pick up the string pulling quickly and move on to boat handling)

Now that I've made a case for the youth, I think if you look at a lot of regatta results over the past couple of years, you'll find the older sailors ( 35+old ) holding their own in all but the hvy air regattas. Guys like Ed Adams, Augie Diaz and Chris Raab in the US for example are always a threat at a regatta.

While I don't consider Robert Scheidt, Ben Ainsle, Blackburn, Mendleblatt to be "old", I believe they were at least in their mid 20's before they were at the top of their game.
 
In my youth the most inspiring laser sailor was 78 year old gentleman of the sea. He remained a competitive threat until health issues took him off the water in his 79th year. "Old" Matt was as skilled of any of us young critters keeping fit by sailing in Florida in the winter and Upper New York State and Southern Ontario in the Summer. Off the water Matt was always there to coach you on technique. On the water his grit and youthful spirt took over. His determination to win always put him in the top of the fleet. In winds under 20 knots Matt was awsome to the end. A new sail every three months helped and sailing 12 months of the year didn't hurt. Even when I was at my racing peak ie. life before marrige and children, Matt would give me a great race. He gave us all a lesson each week. Matt was a great inspiriation to all who had the pleasure to race against him.
 
Greg and others,
Good points that you bring up. I agree even here locally (San Francisco Bay) we have several 35+ sailors that are top notch. Mainly my query was regarding the cream of the crop, the best of the best.
Your #1 point is good, but the old salts that I was referring to have 20 or more years of sailing in their portfolios (maybe not very old in years yet...30s, 40s,?). How would you explain the difference there? We have people here that sail 3 to 4 days a week (in some of the most demanding conditions that a Laser will ever see), been sailing competitively for 20+ years, are in top physical condition, and are still getting beat by the 16 year old that has been sailing since he was 10. I could name names, but use your imagination for a minute.
I don't know. There has to be something else, something that really separates the youth from the others. In most sports, I can justify the reasoning. In football, they bend they don't break. In baseball, the reflexes are at their peak and the eye hand coordination is much better. In some sports, it is the flexability or the speed that they heal. Are these the factors? I just don't know....
Ralph

49208 said:
Would you be willing to consider the following:
1. The "youth" that are coming up are usually starting to sail competitivly at age 10 or younger, with coaches etc. So by age 20 they have 10 years or more of sailing under their belts.
2. There is no substitute for time in the boat. Anybody with a 9-5 job is not going to be able to stay as finely tuned to the nuances of Laser sailing as someone that has the time to go sailing whenever they want. This includes boat handling and lots of short course racing such as you get in high school and college.
3. Pulling strings in the Laser ("fine tuning of the rig") is quickly learned either from other sailors or a coach as compared to other boats like the Star (even in that class, Laser and Finn sailors seem to be able to pick up the string pulling quickly and move on to boat handling)

Now that I've made a case for the youth, I think if you look at a lot of regatta results over the past couple of years, you'll find the older sailors ( 35+old ) holding their own in all but the hvy air regattas. Guys like Ed Adams, Augie Diaz and Chris Raab in the US for example are always a threat at a regatta.

While I don't consider Robert Scheidt, Ben Ainsle, Blackburn, Mendleblatt to be "old", I believe they were at least in their mid 20's before they were at the top of their game.
Click to expand...
 
from what i see, it's more of an aspect of younger sailors have coaches out there watching them train and its a lot easier to fix your mistakes when you have someone watching you outside the boat and analizing your sailing. from that i think younger sailors have an advantage from being able to correct their mistakes before they become a habit.

Also i think that because of how much sailing has modernized older sailors learned to sail on old principals and need to modernize their own sailing methods, and younger sailors learned to race on modern tactics and principals so it is more of a natural thing for them. I myself am a younger sailor and have only been racing for 3 years and i dont have anything against older sailors, actually i think there cool, its always good sto see old guys getting back into the laser!
 
I have never seen the inexperienced youth win out over the skilled older sailors. The youth that are winning are experienced youth. The advantage youth have is many of them can spend their summers sailing with a sailing school or race team, so every weekend they're at a different regatta and have a coach.

Many older sailors I've seen only come out to a club race once a week and maybe they go to a regatta or two but aren't really serious about it. If you look at the hours spent in the boat per year the youth that you see winning will probably have many times more, so the experience the youth gain in one summer could be the same as an older sailor sailing five summers.
 
Flying Monkey said:
I have never seen the inexperienced youth win out over the skilled older sailors. The youth that are winning are experienced youth.
Many older sailors I've seen only come out to a club race once a week and maybe they go to a regatta or two but aren't really serious about it. .
Click to expand...

I think you are on to something. Check out this interesting article on Keith Wilkins, the winner of the 1976 European Laser Championships. He was in his mid-30's and had only sailed for 2 or 3 years previous to winning.

http://europedinghy.org/links/docs/birthofchamp.htm

If I can get permission, I'd like to post this article in our help section. In the meantime, thanks to the US Europe Dinghy Class website.

Merrily
 
Very good Janet. I loved the article. Maybe there is hope for us old guys yet! I will stick my nose to the grind stone and trudge on. Thanks everyone for your input.
 
That article's a must read for anybody like me who in maturity has decided to take on Lasering. I can relate so much to the description he gives of his first year on the boat. I feel sometimes like I am learning to skateboard on water, but I persevere knowing that only time on the water and learning from my mistakes will improve my skills.
 
This doesn't answer your question specifically but I found it analagous if not disappointing... There was an article in the Summer 2004 issue of the Newsletter of the American Cross Country Skiers "Age & Skiing Performance in Master Skiers" by Dan Heil, Ph.D., FACSM, in which he complied race results from the popular nationally attended Yellowstone Rendezvius 50 km race. mind you it was only one race but a caliber that generally assured conditioned participants. "We need to be careful with interpreting these results, however, because certain determinants of ski performance actually imrpove with age... however, ...the decrease in physical capacity willoutpace gains in skiil and experience, especially after age of 40." :( the file showing the times and adjustment for age calculations are available at his web site: www.montana.edu/wwwhhd/faculty/intros/

There was also a sidebar in the same article from the New England Journal of Medicine Health News "B12 deficiency is common among people older than 50, probably because up to 30% of those in this age bracket are unable to absorb the vitamin from food. Only naturally occurring dietary sources are animal products...Those who do not eat animal products must eat foods (cereals common) fortified with the vitamin
 
One factor, perhaps, is that those who are "the cream of the cream" have been working damn hard at their sailing for many years. By the time they get to their mid '30s, they are a bit burned out, they've achieved what they want or decided they got close enough, and then their sailing drops off while they try to catch up on their career, relationships, and life in general.

I know guys who found this as early as 19 (after finishing 25th in the Open worlds and winning one of the toughest regionals ahead of the world champ) or in their mid/late 20s after finishing 3rd in the Open worlds.

The really good guys also get very good offers to go big-boat sailing. It's hard to turn down an offer of lots of cash to keep chasing the same Laser goals, especially since natural ageing is going to make Laser winning harder as you get on.

There was a guy (Paul Van Coerden from the US Virgin Islands or something like that) who was mid-fleet at the 2000 Olympics. He did well in about the '76 worlds!! But down here we have about 3 current Masters world champs, plus one who is really a local but currently living OS, and another who missed the last worlds but has won three before. They normally aren't fully competitive against the Open sailors but AFAIK physical age may not be the cause, time shortage and focus is a problem.

There's a couple of ex-Laser sailors who have almost a complete set (Junior, big rig, Radial, Master) of regional wins in our very tough region. It's a tough fleet; it's been just about as succesful as the entire USA over the past 10-15 years so winning a regional title normallyt means beating guys in the top 3 or 4 in the world and/or Masters world champs.

One got his wins as a Junior, but only at the cost of bad uni results. The other got into the class as a Master and won within 6 months, but only by ditching his "real" job and doing little but sailing and working in a job that amped up his fitness. He could do it only because he had not much else in life at the time; no relationship, the career was going nowhere, he had no mortgage to pay 'cause he owned nothing. That's not normal for an older sailor. They normally have a life.

As others have said, to get there takes the sort of time the average 35+ year old just doesn't have.
 
In my tiny sailing club in Maine, I'm one of the youth (and I'm 46). I routinely get my butt kicked by Laser sailers (and Sunfish guys!) in their 60s, 70s and even 80s. Granted, we are a lake-sailing bunch who don't usually have to deal with the big wave, big wind sailing of other areas. Many of our racing evenings start with 15+ knots and end with a whisper. In those conditions, experience (some of these guys have been sailing for 60 years), subtlety and guile trump youth and strength. This, of course, is good news for me. I'm not getting any younger. But I am getting craftier. :D
 
What about the olympic race format.

It used to be 9 nautical miles and used to take 1:30 or more in some conditions. However, most of the races this days are done in like 45 minutes. Aging helps to develop endurance, while we used to be faster when young. Additionally, sailing downwind fast requires a lot of flexibility, something that is seriously hurt by aging.

I agree with a previous post that claimed that there's more speed differences in the fleet while sailing downwing compared to upwind.

It seems that in every sport out there are new, young talents coming out younger than ever. I think that good coaching, lot's of motivation and sponsoring (so more professionalized sports) are helping a lot. My point is that when I went to college 15 years ago, I knew there was no way I could earn a living sailing so I needed a college degree. This days you can be a professional sailor and live rather well.

I think some smoke gun comes from these points. Just my two cents.
 
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