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Curious mounting holes in the deck

LaLi

Well-Known Member
It's most likely a pair of these that's been there:
CL201-O-16860.jpg
Not a good choice for sheets, as they're quite "sticky" and slow to release.

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Weston

Member
It's most likely a pair of these that's been there:
Not a good choice for sheets, as they're quite "sticky" and slow to release.

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Agreed. Looking at the orientation of the holes, your boat's original owner likely installed clam cleats like the ones shown by LaLi and Beldar.... not cam cleats as I incorrectly said in my earlier post. Cam Cleats would be better for the mainsheet, IMHO. See photo below. Clam Cleats are often used for the outhaul and cunningham lines on the boom as they are less frequently adjusted.
 

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my2fish
this is a picture of my Minifish, but it is the same setup I use on my Sunfish. I use the Harken 2135 ratchet block on my Sunfish.

 

wjejr

Active Member
Thanks for the replies
What’s the preferred set up these days?
Hi Gzblack2. The preferred setup for most is a ratchet block with an upright spring only. Especially in heavy air, you want to be able to react immediately to puffs and changing conditions by sheeting out and in. If the sheet is cleated, you cannot do that.

If you still want cleats, then I would just replace the missing clam cleats. The holes are already there, which will save you the trouble of filling the old holes and drilling the new ones. Although others have and will poo-poo the use of clam cleats, the sheet tension on a Sunfish just isn’t that high, and they are not going to be a problem. If it’s that windy, or if you are racing, the sheet should be in your hands.

BTW, the cleats were definitely where they should be: forward and outboard which allows you to sit forward and not have the stern drag. You should not, IMHO, have the cleats or single cleat inboard or on the centreline. The last thing you want to do when hiking in a blow is to have to lean in to the center of the boat to release or cleat the main sheet.

Hope that helps.

Good luck.
 
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LaLi

Well-Known Member
others have and will poo-poo the use of clam cleats
Yes :D Clamcleats are ok for control lines which you don't need to uncleat fast, but much less so for sheets, as you have to pull the line quite some way back first before they release.

If you still want cleats, then I would just replace the missing clam cleats. The holes are already there, which will save you the trouble of filling the old holes and drilling the new ones.
The holes are most likely for the old version of CL201, which is a little longer than the current one, so you might have to fill and drill a few holes anyway.

I'd go for cam cleats positioned like Weston's + risers (to get them closer to the level of the block sheave), or no cleats at all.

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wjejr

Active Member
Yes :D Clamcleats are ok for control lines which you don't need to uncleat fast, but much less so for sheets, as you have to pull the line quite some way back first before they release.

The holes are most likely for the old version of CL201, which is a little longer than the current one, so you might have to fill and drill a few holes anyway.

I'd go for cam cleats positioned like Weston's + risers (to get them closer to the level of the block sheave), or no cleats at all.

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Hi Lali. For a two blocked laser in a blow, or for an FD Genoa, or for any racing, sure, I agree with you. But for an old Sunfish, which isn’t likely to be racing, I just don’t see that it matters all that much. So you over-trim by an inch for two seconds, so what? It just isn’t a big deal in recreational sailing. As for being able to release the sheet quickly, that may be true in high wind, but In a blow you are not/ should not be cleated anyway, which of course is my first preference: no cleats.

Agree with you on the risers.

Gzblack2, measure the holes and let us know. I have a pair of never used CL201 clam cleats kicking around that are at least twenty years old. If the holes match, they are yours for the asking. I’ll even throw in the teak risers and stainless hardware you need to make it a completely plug and sail affair. The only stipulation is that you will need to tell us how well, or not, they work. Let me know on that.
 

gzblack2

Member
Hi Lali. For a two blocked laser in a blow, or for an FD Genoa, or for any racing, sure, I agree with you. But for an old Sunfish, which isn’t likely to be racing, I just don’t see that it matters all that much. So you over-trim by an inch for two seconds, so what? It just isn’t a big deal in recreational sailing. As for being able to release the sheet quickly, that may be true in high wind, but In a blow you are not/ should not be cleated anyway, which of course is my first preference: no cleats.

Agree with you on the risers.

Gzblack2, measure the holes and let us know. I have a pair of never used CL201 clam cleats kicking around that are at least twenty years old. If the holes match, they are yours for the asking. I’ll even throw in the teak risers and stainless hardware you need to make it a completely plug and sail affair. The only stipulation is that you will need to tell us how well, or not, they work. Let me know on that.
very generous of you.
I’ll measure when I get a chance this weekend.
Although I won’t be sailing her ‘til next spring.

My other boat has a swivel cam cleat, any downsides to that design?
 

wjejr

Active Member
very generous of you.
I’ll measure when I get a chance this weekend.
Although I won’t be sailing her ‘til next spring.

My other boat has a swivel cam cleat, any downsides to that design?

On the swivel cam, there are many different kinds and many, many, many more opinions. If you are referring to the ones that have the bullseye fairlead with the cam cleat right behind, they work great when the line is running at low angles through the fairlead. I have four of them on a boat I own to manage control lines and have no complaints. Using these, the crew can adjust the controls from either side of the boat.

My opinion is on these thing though that if the line goes though the bullseye and then turns 90 degrees, the line won’t easily pay out, especially if the tension is low. An example would be using one of these for a Sunfish mainsheet in light air.

Another kind of swivel cam has a standup block and a swivel arm. Those work great for applications where the load is coming from overhead (e.g., mainsheet running from boom), but they are expensive and I think overkill for small boats like a sunfish. I use one of those for the mainsheet on a bigger boat.
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For the Sunfish, I think the single standup ratchet block and outboard cleats are better, but I have seen others on this forum use swivel cleats of various kinds. Most of those Sunfish people will tell you they are happy with their arrangement, and that is really what it should be about and not the latest greatest.

Without knowing what your other boat is and how you are likely to use it, I would just say that if you are happy with what you have, then keep it as is. There are tendencies in this sport towards the more complex and exotic, and I certainly can’t say I’ve always been immune, but these tendencies almost inevitably translate into the more expensive. Generally speaking, the Sunfish is the antithesis of all that, and I think it’s a good thing.
 

gzblack2

Member
I’ve been jumping from thread to thread I should’ve mentioned my “other boat” is a ‘78 sunfish. The boat I’m repairing is an ‘80 sunfish. Hmm, maybe having more then one it’s time to name them...

This is the swivel cam cleat with a bullseye, must be old as I haven’t found pictures of this model online.
It works for me, I’m just learning to sail and haven’t ran into an issue with it as of yet.
Yes the sunfish is inexpensive and I hope to keep it that way

Got a chance to measure the holes on the deck. They are a little distorted but seem to be 3 1/8-5/16”center to center.
 

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LaLi

Well-Known Member
This is the swivel cam cleat with a bullseye, must be old as I haven’t found pictures of this model online.
It works for me, I’m just learning to sail and haven’t ran into an issue with it as of yet.
American Precision Marine... yeah, that's old. Apparently it was exactly Long Island that they called home, but ceased production a very long time ago.

The asymmetric design is kind of cool in itself. But apart that the cleat is cracking at the forward screw, the stainless fairlead probably doesn't work that well downwind or in light air when you want to pull the sheet more or less upward. The newer versions of the theme are better in that sense (such as this one).

Got a chance to measure the holes on the deck. They are a little distorted but seem to be 3 1/8-5/16”center to center.
It's 72 mm for the CL201, 84 mm for the CL201-O ("O" actually meaning "old").

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LaLi

Well-Known Member
Of course, you can't say what kind of block there was at that location. There are clear traces of a round base attached with four screws, but also a couple "extra" screw holes are visible which suggest that there's been a three-point base there as well at some point.

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wjejr

Active Member
[QUOTE="gzblack2, post: 185462, member:
Got a chance to measure the holes on the deck. They are a little distorted but seem to be 3 1/8-5/16”center to center.
[/QUOTE]

I measured the ones I have at a little over 2 3/4 inches so, taking into account what Lali reported, I must have the “new” cleats even though I am almost certain they are more than 22 years old. Regardless, I am still happy to send them to you if you want. I did find the stainless hardware, including the backing washers. You will just need to fill one hole and drill another.

Let me know.
 

LaLi

Well-Known Member
What thickness do you recommend?
Well, the Sunfish is pretty exceptional in that the last sheet block is mounted on the deck, on the same plane as the cleats. I was thinking about raising the cleat up to the level of the lower edge of the block sheave, so that the sheet runs more or less horizontally between them, but that would be a "max high" position, and a lower one probably works fine. It's one of those things you need to test in real life. A standard Harken riser (293 or 295), or two stacked on top of one another should do the trick. (Endless possibilities for homebuilding, too, of course.)

Actual Sunfish sailors probably have some actual experience with this :D

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gzblack2

Member
So I had a chance to get the boat out yesterday and decided not to use the swivel cleat but hold the sheet in my hand directly from the block on the spar.
It was enlightening. Much more feedback which helped in the light but gusty conditions. Tacking felt easier with the sheet higher and further away from my body, which made switching from my aft hand much easier. I’m sure it’ll be a different experience in higher winds, but this revelation will keep me from rushing out to buy some expensive gear (for now).
 
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