Class Approved Sunfish Upgrades (from Vanguard)

Bradley

Admin/Operations
Staff member
After final testing at the 2005 World Championships, two new International Sunfish Class approved upgrades for the Sunfish are available now.

Fiberglass Rudder Blade:
The design profile for the fiberglass blade is the same as the wood model, with great surface finish and shape. The fiberglass blade also provides excellent durability. All future Sunfish Worlds Boats and Sunfish Pro Boats will be equipped from the factory with the FRP rudder blade. The new Fiberglass rudder blade is also available as an after market item.

Mast Sleeve:
Sleeves for stiffening and strengthening the mast are now installed on all Sunfish masts. The stiffener consists of an aluminum sleeve inside the bottom of the mast section that inhibits lower mast bend for a stiffer more durable mast. A mast sleeve retrofit kit is available to equip previously purchased masts.

Ned Jones
Product Manager
Vanguard Sailboats
401.683.0960
www.teamvanguard.com

(post stolen from the Sunfish Email List)
 
That's great news. Are the two new items available now? How much do they cost? Can't wait to get that new rudder and start beating all the local young hotshots.
 
The changes are good. A few questions...I guess for our officers.

When will we get the specific information on these changes?
Will the wooden rudders that have been refinished still be class legal?
What are the costs for both the rudder and the mast?
Are these the only changes. I heard that the boom blocks have also been changed on the "Sunfish Pro" is this correct? Is this class legal?

Unless you are attending major regattas you tend to be left out of the loop on changes. This is pretty big information. Will it all be posted on the website?

Thanks for updating us Ned.
 
i was up at my local shop last night and the new rudder was like $192. it seemed to be a little bit lighter than the wooden ones.
 
Does anyone know the status of the new rudder? If we are going to be getting a new rudder within the next year or two why would we spend an additional $200 to upgrade our boats? Is this fiberglass rudder taking the place of the new design?
 
Strumolo said:
i was up at my local shop last night and the new rudder was like $192. it seemed to be a little bit lighter than the wooden ones.

WHAT??? :eek: Just for the rudder blade.

APS lists the old Sunfish wooden rudder blade at $137. And just for comparison they are selling the Laser rudder blade at $129.65.
 
Strumolo said:
i was up at my local shop last night and the new rudder was like $192. it seemed to be a little bit lighter than the wooden ones.

On the other hand this is good news. No way the kids are going to fork out $200 for a new rudder balde with all the uncertainty about future changes. Only rich fat old guys like me will buy them and we will beat all the kids now. :)
 
Since vanguard's promo blurb says the new plastic fantastic rudder blade duplicates the original wood blade my questions are:
What's happening with the class development of a "new" rudder blade?
Can the new plastic one be modified like the original wood ones or is it a no touch part like the palstic daggerboard? If it's a duplicate and no touch then racers will be keeping the wood ones so they can still modify.

JMHO, but someone dropped the ball on this. Either Vanguard or the class or both.
 
mike4947 said:
Since vanguard's promo blurb says the new plastic fantastic rudder blade duplicates the original wood blade my questions are:
What's happening with the class development of a "new" rudder blade?
Can the new plastic one be modified like the original wood ones or is it a no touch part like the palstic daggerboard? If it's a duplicate and no touch then racers will be keeping the wood ones so they can still modify.

JMHO, but someone dropped the ball on this. Either Vanguard or the class or both.

Nobody has told us that the class rules have changed. And the class rules permit us to modify the rudder. So it must be legal to modify the new rudder too. I'm going to paint mine with a wood grain finish!
 
To be really authentic, you could grain a crack or two into the finish. LOL

I also noticed they are only using it on the "world boats" and their "pro" ie racing equipped boats. If they do go to a "new design" that means just one more thing recreational boats will need to compete with the race equipped boats.
 
mike4947 said:
IMHO, but someone dropped the ball on this. Either Vanguard or the class or both.

The World Council and Advisory Council were presumably held in Martinique some weeks ago. Is it too much to ask that the minutes of those meetings should have been posted on the class website by now so that we all know what has been decided?

There are lots of questions being asked about this on the Sunfish email list too. A couple of class officers Susan Mallows and Gail Turluck have attempted to respond but it's clear that they don't really know what's going on either. No response here or there from the ISCA President, the USCA President ot the Class Secretary - who ought to know what's going on. Come on guys - you need to do a better job of communicating with us.

By the way, elections for class officers happen every year at the NAs (or by postal vote before then). I'm going to support those officers that do their best to keep us informed and vote down the guys that keep us in the dark.
 
I'm confused, is the "new" rudder discussed here the same as the "new and improved" prototype discussed (at length) by Tom Whitehurst and others recently? The one with different shape and less angle between the hull and rudder (i.e. less than 120 degrees).
If not, it seems odd that Vanguard is making a rudder like this. What is the status of the "new and improved" prototype rudder? Also, why is it that we are finding out about this new (Vanguard) rudder in such a round-about way?

I have a feeling I know the answers to some of the above, but was curious if we can get an "official" reply from the Sunfish Class about this.
 
Well I got an email off the sunfish listserve this afternoon that reported the class measurer doesn't know anything about the plastic rudder. Sounds like Vanguard didn't notify anyone in the class office about it before they started advertising.
Like I said before a real FUBAR situation.
 
Re: Meeting Attendance

The class measurer was represented through proxy
at both the AC & WC meetings in Martinique.

The builder representative attended the meeting in person.
 
Dear Sunfish Class racing fans,

Here's the situation as I understand it.

Rudder #1: The current wooden rudder has been a problem for a long time. Can't get good wood for many years, so they split. The manufacturer's jig has been redone off the old ones so many times that the new wood ones weren't up to full original specs. A couple years ago it was decided that effort would go to building a composite rudder that was built to full original specs (and a couple were produced that were too big, this slowed the process down). Turns out that this "exact same dimension" rudder blade project was completed in time for use at the 2005 Worlds. Perhaps the manufacturer's representative slightly misspoke when reference was made to "testing" at the Worlds, as it truly was an implementation and launch. Because this blade is built by the manufacturer and is to spec (reportedly), the answer is, yes, it is Class legal. Yes, so are all those home-built-ups that people have been lovingly sweating over for all these years. And, a woodie, off the shelf, is still completely legal, too. And, yes, the list price on the composite-still-current-shape rudder blade is $190. Likely because the engineering is 2000's engineering, not 1970's (when Laser was developed).

Rudder #2: There is a redesigned rudder blade that is in the developmental phase. It is vertically mounted in the same rudder head and takes the same tiller. Tom Whitehurst has been leading this effort. Testing thus far has shown that it helps lighter sailors and has no effect on others. Apparently it has a little better "touch." It is still only a development question. Testing is ongoing. Because it is a completely different shape, it will have to be approved by the ISCA Advisory Council, the ISCA World Council, the Manufacturer, and ISAF. The earliest this developmental rudder blade could possibly occur would be early 2007.

Mast Sleeve: For a number of years now there have been issues with new masts snapping at the deck and/or bending badly, even at the World's. It's one thing when a mast has been used for years and/or has salt corrosion, but it has been a problem for some time. The Class asked the manufacturer to examine the situation and apparently the decision was made. Since all masts going forward will have the sleeve, and its provided in a manufacturer built spar, that effectively makes it legal. Don't know list on this one, but your nearby Dealer will be happy to answer that question for you.

(Personally, I'm going to watch those who sail with the new one to decide whether or not I want to give up the bendiness in those big blows ...)

There may be a little more to all of these stories, and you can watch for the details in the next issue of Windward Leg when it arrives in your mailbox (and no, I don't know when that will be).

Sincerely,

Gail
~~~/)~~~~/)~~~/)~~~~~/)~~~~~~/)~~
Gail M. Turluck
Sunfish 24186
USSCA Secretary
1245 West Gull Lake Drive
Richland, MI 49083
(269)629-0425
[email protected]
~~~/)~~~~/)~~~/)~~~~~/)~~~~~~/)~~
 
Old Geezer said:
Nobody has told us that the class rules have changed. And the class rules permit us to modify the rudder. So it must be legal to modify the new rudder too. I'm going to paint mine with a wood grain finish!

Bad news there buddy. First you'll have to incur damage on that new blade. You can't put a finish on it unless you are repairing it. :confused: :D ;)
 
Gail, seeing as how the rules haven't been updated to include the plastic rudder with the notation that it can't be modified like the note for the platic daggerboard, that's a little premature.
If the rules do get updated then the racers will stick with their wooden rudders so they can modify them to an advantage and again making the Sunfish less of a one design boat.
 
What is going on?

1. "The class measurer doesn't know anything."
"The class measurer was represented at the Advisory Council and the World Council." Which is true? Who was the measurer's proxy and didn't he report back to the measurer on what happened at the meetings?

2. Who was at these meetings and will they please fill the rest of us in as to what was discussed?

3. Where are the minutes of these meetings and when can we see them?

4. Is the new rudder faster than the standard wooden rudder or not? If so, does this mean that there will effectively be two fleets at the NAs -- the fast (new rudder) and the slow?

5. Is the new rudder faster than a " home improved" wooden rudder or not? If not, are we allowed to improve the new rudder?

6. What is the real status of the Whitehurst rudder? Was it discussed at the World Council or Advisory Council? If so what was discussed and what was decided? We need to know if yet another new rudder is coming out in 2007 (as Gail implies may be possible) or not. Is it likely Vanguard will pay for the tooling to create two different new rudders only two years apart?

Hey class officers - we are your members - we elect you (or not). Answers please.
 
Gail said:
Bad news there buddy. First you'll have to incur damage on that new blade. You can't put a finish on it unless you are repairing it. :confused: :D ;)

I respectfully disagree. The current ISCA rules say "nothing herein shall preclude minor adjustments to the rudder by way of sharpening the trailing edge, rounding the leading edge, refinishing or repairing damage provided that the rudder has dimensions in accordance with the measurement diagram in Rule 5 Figures 2 & 5. Refinishing may include covering the rudder with fiberglass and/or resin."

They specifically allow changing the profile of leading and trailing edges and refinishing without a requirement that the rudder be damaged first. Even if there were such a requirement how do you think it could it be enforced?

Unless of course this rule has been changed at some secret meeting in Martinique that nobody will publish minutes for?
 
Old Geezer said:
I respectfully disagree. The current ISCA rules say "nothing herein shall preclude minor adjustments to the rudder by way of sharpening the trailing edge, rounding the leading edge, refinishing or repairing damage provided that the rudder has dimensions in accordance with the measurement diagram in Rule 5 Figures 2 & 5. Refinishing may include covering the rudder with fiberglass and/or resin."

They specifically allow changing the profile of leading and trailing edges and refinishing without a requirement that the rudder be damaged first. Even if there were such a requirement how do you think it could it be enforced?

Unless of course this rule has been changed at some secret meeting in Martinique that nobody will publish minutes for?

Things likely will not be perfect this year as far as what the published rules state. If folks want to get really crazed over it, people with the new blades will likely be told to leave them home (or in their car and to buy/borrow a woodie), and that the published rules fully stand. Will something official be published in time for the NA's? Unlikely, as Windward Leg accomplishes that goal, and one came out not very long ago. As to who was at the meeting in Martinique, well, let's just say not very many folks from the US. A stand in for the Secretary is preparing minutes and when they are ready, they will be shared. This rudder blade has been in process for years, it just got dropped off the radar screen for a while. This blade is built to the maximum dimensions of the current rudder, saving clods like me from having to try to build a woodie up myself.

Truthfully, is a "perfect" rudder going to be the determining factor in who wins the NA's? HECK NO! One bad tack and any gain from that "perfect" barn door on the back of the boat will be obliterated. Folks, let's concentrate on going out on the water, sailing fairly, under the rules, and HAVING FUN.

Gnash your teeth all you want on the issue. You've got some information and more will simply have to wait for now.
 
Gail said:
If folks want to get really crazed over it, people with the new blades will likely be told to leave them home (or in their car and to buy/borrow a woodie), and that the published rules fully stand

Thanks for all the information you have provided on this Gail. While some of us still have some questions, we appreciate that you keep us so well informed. But what is this suggestion that we may not be allowed to use the new blades at the NAs? This doesn't make any sense to me at all....

1. Why is a class officer speculating that people who have purchased rudders from Vanguard (who say they are legal) and that comply with the class rules as currently written may not be allowed to use those rudders in the North Americans?

2. Of course the published rules fully stand. And they say that any rudder supplied by the manufacturer that complies with the measurement diagram (evn if it has been modified in ways allowed by the rule) is legal.

I suppose a restriction on not using the new rudders could be written into the NOR or SIs. Is it really the intention of the class or Lewes YC to impose such a restriction? Those of us contemplating buying a new rudder - and the folks who already have one - need some clarity on this please.
 
Gail said:
This blade is built to the maximum dimensions of the current rudder, saving clods like me from having to try to build a woodie up myself.

Can someone who has actually seen a new rudder, or someone from Vangaurd, clarify Gail's statement please?

Is the new plastic rudder from Vanguard actually built up to maximum dimensions, just like someone who glassed and reshaped a wooden rudder could achieve, with optimal shapes for leading and trailing edges?

Or is it more like a plastic version of the existing wooden rudder?

Or something in between?
 
I was at both the Advisory Council mtg and the World Council mtg in Martinique. I am sure that the minutes for these meetings will be written and posted in due time.

We should all remember that minutes from international meetings take a fair amount of time to write and they are all done by volunteers. These volunteers sat in 2 meetings after racing until late at night while others enjoyed dinner and socializing. Please be patient.

The Advisory Council discussed the new rudder options and narrowly approved bringing the new "Whitehurst concept" to the WC mtg.

The WC was overwhelmingly negative about changing the rudder design (the minutes will reflect the votes) and overwhelmingly supported the new fiberglass version of the existing shape.

Pleaase note that these are not the official minutes, just my notes from the mtg.

Chip Johns
Builders rep to the AD and WC
 
I'm sorry to say this, but after reading some of the posts about the new fiberglass rudder, my conclusion is that some of you need to get a life. There is no way that the new fiberglass rudder, the same size and shape as the old wooden one, is going to be "faster" in any measurable way than a properly maintained wooden one. I'm 100% sure that people like Derrick Fries and Bob Findlay are not going to rush out and get a new one to replace the old rudders they used on their old boats to sail circles around the rest of us at our recent regional regatta. The new fiberglass rudder should be more durable, easier to maintain and more dimensionally consistent. If you want to sail faster, take your old rudder, put it on your boat and go sail. Concentrate on learning to spot and use windshifts to your advantage and you’ll sail faster. Its good therapy, too.
 
1) Neil is right. There will be no appreciable speed difference.
2) Great news from Chip. The Whitehurst rudder would require everyone to go buy a new blade, with no improvement in the one design nature of the boat. (I refuse to believe that a rudder with less drag and less weather helm would somehow NOT be faster - everyone would have had to get one.) If you want to sail a boat with a Laser-like rudder and Laser-like handling, buy a Laser.

BB
 
I found this wording under the 2004 WC minutes linked on the Class website. This is from the October 2003 WC meeting. Maybe this will help answer the question on being able to modify the plastic rudder? (Sounds like this has been in the works for awhile??? I don't know, I have been a bit out if the rules loop and have not been keeping up with the changes.)

Anyway...here is what I found.
"A motion was made and seconded to accept the Advisory Council position on allowing you to adjust the plastic rudder to equal what we can do with the wooden rudder. The motion passed. Todd Edwards will supply the rule wording."
 
Chip Johns said:
I was at both the Advisory Council mtg and the World Council mtg in Martinique.
The WC was overwhelmingly negative about changing the rudder design (the minutes will reflect the votes) and overwhelmingly supported the new fiberglass version of the existing shape.
Chip Johns
Builders rep to the AD and WC

Thanks Chip. We appreciate that someone who was at the meeting is using this forum to keep customers and class members informed.

If the current World Council was overwhelmingly negative about a fundamental change in rudder design then I think it is safe to assume that such a change is not going to happen for a few years if ever. So anyone who buys one of the fiberglass rudders with the existing shape will be making a good investment.
 
joannek said:
I found this wording under the 2004 WC minutes linked on the Class website. This is from the October 2003 WC meeting. Maybe this will help answer the question on being able to modify the plastic rudder? (Sounds like this has been in the works for awhile??? I don't know, I have been a bit out if the rules loop and have not been keeping up with the changes.)

Anyway...here is what I found.
"A motion was made and seconded to accept the Advisory Council position on allowing you to adjust the plastic rudder to equal what we can do with the wooden rudder. The motion passed. Todd Edwards will supply the rule wording."

Great piece of detective work Joanne! In any case, if I read the rules correctly, they already allow such changes. But it's good to know that the AC had the intention that the new rudder can be "adjusted". So hopefully our chief measuer won't have a problem if he sees an adjusted new rudder in Lewes.
 
The Sunfish Class Office sent out an email today with the following message..

To all of you concerned about the announcement of the fiberglass rudder and mast sleeve: Both of these items have been discussed and approved at previous World and Advisory Council meetings.

Thie history of this is fascinating.

The 2002 AC minutes say, "The new high density foam rudder is available to purchase. It is class legal, the same size and shape as the existing wooden rudder. No modifications are allowed to the new rudder." (Interestingly the class rules were apparently never changed to implement that last wish of the AC).

The 2002 WC minutes simply say that the items discussed in the AC were presented to the WC and no action was required from the WC.

The 2003 AC minutes say "The new high density foam rudder was discussed. To date 25 have been maufactured. Two showed up at Barrington and neither of them passed inspection. They were too thick." Clearly at this stage the new rudders were illegal.

The 2004 AC minutes say, "Various rudder designs were discussed. Vanguard supplied two rudders for evaluation and testing. One of the rudders was a fiberglass version with the same dimensions as the current rudder. The other rudder was the current wooden version modified to allow the rudder to sit deeper in the water (105 vs. 120 degrees). A proposal from Tom Whitehurst was presented as well as an older proposal from Larry Cochran. The rudders will be tested by a cross section of sailors and the results will be documented to the Advisory Council for further discussion."
At this point the AC seems to think both new rudders still need to be tested.

The 2005 WC and AC minutes, according to Gail, are still being prepared by an unnamed person who stood in for the class secretary at the meetings.

Forgive me if I am confused. :confused: Is "high density foam" the same thing as "fiberglass".

If so, apparently the new rudder was appoved in 2002, measured as illegal in 2003, and still needed to be tested in 2004. 2005 discussions still secret.

If they are not the same thing, then I'm unclear as to which meeting, if any, approved the fiberglass rudder.
 
beldar boathead said:
This topic seems to be getting boring. Anybody else bored?

"If something is boring after two minutes, try it for four. If still boring, then eight. Then sixteen. Then thirty-two. Eventually one discovers that it is not boring at all." --John Cage.


"Somebody's boring me. I think it's me." --Dylan Thomas.
 
I would like to try to clear up some of these questions:

1 The fiberglass rudder is the same profile as the current blade. It is NOT a new design but a change in construction material. Vanguard asked at the Worlds in Hyannis if they could make a “plastic” blade for this years worlds in Martinique but everyone needs to understand that this is NOT rule change either nor is a rule change required. Its is the mfg’s right ( Vanguard ) to supply the rudder out of any material they chose but it must still measure within the current specs. This fiberglass blade has not been officially measured by the Sunfish Class measurer. Sunfish Class Templates were not available to do this in Martinique. All the current rule still apply with respect to modifying this blade or any other blade supplied by the mfg as long as it still measures within specs. The rudders supplied in Martinique were of excellent quality and profile shape. These blade will be stock equipment on the pro sunfish model.

2 The mast sleeve is to reinforce the lower section of the mast. Several year ago, Vanguard changed the extrusion to the same alloy used in the Laser. This was done because it was not cost effective to get a different alloy just for the Sunfish. This upgrade is only necessary if you own a sunfish built within the last several years. If you have not bent your mast, then you should not be concerned with this upgrade. Vanguard will offer a reto kit for those that want upgrade. ( see cost below ) All new sunfish mast will have this sleeve but check with the dealer to make sure it is not old stock.

3 Boom blocks. The world counsel did NOT approve the USSCA proposal to allow the boom blocks to be changed. It is still NOT legal to do so.

These items were proposed at last year worlds in Hyannis and published in the Windward Leg for discussion at this years Worlds in Martinique.

NEW Rudder Design:

I was at the AC meeting representing the class measurer and there was NO proposal on a new rudder design made in Martinique. The initiative to propose a new design is still in testing and on-tract. Delivery of sample prototypes has been slow and our testing will most likely continue for another year. Although, I believe that we have an excellent design. Ample testing is still required and getting everyone (World counsel members) onboard will be an uphill challenge. I would encourage anyone wanting information to contact the design & testing team: [email protected]. I am disturbed that some have chosen made statements with no facts whatsoever with regard to a new design. I will be at the NA’s in Lewes and anyone that wants to try one of the prototypes is more than welcome to test one and make there own conclusions.

Here is the part numbers and prices from Vanguard:

Item # Description Retail Price
64113 FRP Rudder Blade $191.66
66601 Rudder, rigged w/ FRP Blade $262.55
20147 Mast Sleeve Retrofit Kit $32.81
99441/99442 Sunfish Pro Boat $3615


Tom Whitehurst
8689
 
thanks for the info Tom

I would really like to test drive a prototype rudder. Perhaps Tuesday or after racing some day. I'll look 4U.

Tim
 
Thanks Tom. We appreciate all the information on the current status of the Sunfish rudder.

However, at the risk of boring beldar boathead, I have to say I am still confused. Chip Johns and Tom Whitehurst were both at the AC meeting in Martinique and seem to have different memories of what happened.

Chip says, "The Advisory Council discussed the new rudder options and narrowly approved bringing the new "Whitehurst concept" to the WC mtg. The WC was overwhelmingly negative about changing the rudder design (the minutes will reflect the votes) and overwhelmingly supported the new fiberglass version of the existing shape."

Tom says, "I was at the AC meeting representing the class measurer and there was NO proposal on a new rudder design made in Martinique."

How could the AC have approved bringing Tom's rudder design concept to the WC if no such proposal was ever made?

As the unnamed person writing the official minutes of the meetings still seems to busy scribbling away at the task, can anyone else who was at the meetings clarify what actually happened?

More importantly if the WC really is "overwhelmingly negative" about changing the rudder design, why is Tom still working on this project?
 
All I can say is this is why someone is responsible for taking the official minutes. So you’ll have to read them in the next WL.

As for “the WC overwhelmingly negative” Let me put this in perspective. The world Counsel is negative about making any changes to the Class rules. Also, the views reflected in Martinique do not all the voting members because they were not present in Martinique.

So, it is true to say that any change will be an uphill challenge but not impossible. That is why I will do all that is needed before we actually make any recommendation for a new rudder design. Until that time, try to check out a sample prototype for yourself.

Tom Whitehurst
8689
 

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