Cheap Sailing; oxymoron

Thad2000

New Member
I've always wanted to sail... but I thought it would be too big of an expense and too much to learn. I learned about laser sailboats when I started checking out a sunfish boat that was on craigslist.
Read some on what I should look for in a boat, then ignored it.. (lol) Not really. I bought a cheap ($300) laser and off I went.
Now, the more savvy I'm getting the more I'm seeing problems in the ole laser. Some things are rattling inside (like small pebbles or screws?) I sailed the lake several times and had a blast, took into the sound in a bit higher wind and ... capsized four times... boat became extremely unstable.
I'd forgotten the drain plug and didn't realize until i'd lugged the boat to the beach, rigged it, and was about ready to start. Not being one to quit I improvised the best I could with a piece of ole garden hose and .. a stick. It did stay in.. I didn't even notice that much water coming out of the drain plug at the end... Yesterday I went out again.. and... no capsizing, winds where gusting and unstable.. but I stayed in. When I was de rigging the boat I put it on it's side and water gushed out of some thin cracks in the gunwales.
So, I've got to fix that and don't have too much of an Idea where to start. Also, It makes me think I need to do a bubble test. I assume it's like a tire test, with soapy water. I also read about attaching a vacuum to the drain plug to make the air pressure for the test.. Sound right? I haven't had a chance to weigh the boat.. it feels heavy, but I can't help but wonder if I've just gotten weak or if it's just awkward. The boat seemed solid.. After purchase I realized I'm too small for the current rigging.. i assume it's standard, I'm about 140. It's a hoot to sail tho... and I'm not looking to spend a bunch. especially on a hull that might be garbage. So, What things should I pay special care to learn (what is most important) and what should I watch out for on boat care and .. hell, just give any advice you might have for a beginner that will save time and $$$.
Oh, and I've been rigging the boat on it's side and popping it upright. Since I'm new It takes awhile and I hate the sail flapping wild while I figure out the ropes. Is this bad? It seams like the way to go if there is any wind going on.
oh, and here is a pic of my funky trailer set up for getting it down the dock.. I know your not suppose to trailer it using the deck.. I'll probably rig it so most the weight is on
trialerresize.jpg
the edges by the gunwales.
So, I just want to sail as cheap and easy as possible... I welcome any tips.
 
got my first laser for free! these are typical repairs for old hulls

basically to check for leaks, you want to fill the boat with low pressure and lather the hull with dish soap and water, especially the gunwales, centerboard trunk, bailor, and all fittings,

you want enough that air comes out of the leaks but not soo much that the hull expands, a small compressor works well

there is alot of repair information out there, when you find the leak(s) search for the problem area and you'll find detailed posts
 
Perfectly safe to trailer it with the hull down.

Small cracks can let a lot of water in. Run a bead of epoxy along the gunnels and see where that gets you.
 
Thanks, I look forward to getting all the info I can. It was starting how much water drained out of the side when I tipped it sideways. I think I didn't notice it before because it was on a beach. One post I read said he applied the epoxy while using a vacuum to create suction at the drain plug, which sucked the epoxy into the crevaces. That sounded good as long as it didn't suck it all the way through. Also, good to know that's an ok way to trailer... I'm still working on my mini cart.
Is there a problem with just laying the whole boat sideways? Does it put too much weight on the gunwales? I see people saying to store it that way so it seems like it's not a bad think to do. Also, the mast differences between a radial and a regular mast... Is it just the first beam? If so, can I just buy a radial sail and cut down my current mast? Like I said, I'm cheap.
 
My boats earlier vintage, though the same 70s kitchenaid avocado, lol. Had water getting in around the daggerboard trunk on the bottom- Used 5200 all the way around and it sealed up well. Would use the same for your gunwales.

I set up as laserxd but I step the mast before I put the boom on. I leave the mainsheet rigged on the boom so all i have to do is run the cunningham and connect the vang and outhaul. No it's not good for a sail to get flogged, but it doesn't take but a minute to get hold of the clew and get it on the boom. Are you using a clew strap? Helps a lot, though not the point of one.
 
A radial lower section is more flexible than a standard section, and the radial sail won't trim properly with a cut down standard section.
 
Did a leak test. Boat seams pretty good. The one side is wide open and blowing bubbles like crazy. Otherwise, mast hole? seems good. In the cockpit the wood stripping leaks where the screws come in. Is epoxy really needed there? Also, at the foot of the mast step it's missing a fitting. a coatings been put over the holes, bus a little air still gets out. I'm ordering fittings, (soon) so do I really need to worry about it. Minute leaks can't be that bad.. it's a common sense thing, right?

Merrily- Damn... How do you put a mast section back together? Just kidding. but thanks for the info. I didn't fathom that mast flexibility was a big factor in trimming. A bead of Epoxy? I don't have much experience with it. Why not try and spread it in the crack.. Is it so if it needs a bigger repair I can get the old stuff off easier? or .. just a figure of speech I'm taking way too literal. I've read some of the threads on it. Not sure if I want to pry it open farther and sand out the old bonding material. I'm not even sure how to tell the bonding material from the boat.
Todd, ya.. I have a matching blender that came from the 70's that seems better than what I can find on the market right now. Do I have a clue? nope... oh, clew.. Actually my first time on a sailboat was on the laser. I've done some reading but I don't have any friends that sail... and I'm starting from scratch. Honestly, right now I'm not even using the right knots. I used a loop of rope tied as a clew last time.. I'm not really sure what the purpose is when there is the outhaul. Isn't it like a belt and suspenders... same thing with the Cunningham and the down-haul.. I have a great deal to learn. Right now, I'm trying to put getting out on the water first so I can see how much I want to prioritize sailing in my life. I also bought a newport 16. They both need new sails and a little love thrown their way. No ones lined up to sail with me so I'm focused on learning the laser.. and It's a bit more exciting to sail.
 
Here are some pics of the poor boat. She actually seems pretty stiff. Creeks a little in high winds... but it's holding together, (except for that one side.) I welcome any suggestions or things you might notice. She's not pretty.
fullview bottom.jpg
gunwhale crack3.jpg
foot leak spot.jpg
daggerboard2.jpg
mast step.jpg
drain.jpg
daggerboard.jpg
gunwhale crack2.jpg
 
The one big item on old boats that hasn't come up yet here is the weak joint between the bottom of the mast hole and the inside bottom of the hull. On older boats, this joint often lets go in any kind of wind- like more than 10 knots. Sounds like you've had some fun already in some stronger winds, so just saying.

ANY leak of water out of the mast hole is a big warning sign, but even if the mast hole doesn't leak, the joint was weak when it was new, and gets weaker with age. If (or when) this joint lets go, as the mast falls over, it cracks + tears up the deck badly. Reinforcing the joint before it breaks is maybe $50 and 2-4 hours of work, including cutting a hole and putting an "inspection port" into the deck to get access to the joint. But fixing the deck and the joint after it breaks is maybe $300-500 and 20-40 hours.

A search on this forum will bring back lots of info and pictures of others, including me, who learned the hard way. Ounce of prevention vs pound of cure, that kind of thing. Your call of course, just a heads-up on a common weak point and a way to avoid the "big fix."

The only other thing I'd add: for just having fun, not racing, I don't believe you'd notice terribly much difference between a sawed-off full-ring lower mast section and a more-flexible true radial lower section.

For cheap and good sails and other parts, see Intensitysails.com. (No financial interest on my part - just a satisfied customer.) Most of their stuff is not legal for racing. But all the stuff I've got from them (which is a lot) has been well built, reliable, durable, and much cheaper than class-legal stuff. You can also sometimes find used sails on ebay, but as usual, buyer beware- some are so old they're not much good anymore.

It doesn't matter what she looks like. I've sailed an old 1970's boat for fun only (no racing) for 20+ years. You can do it pretty darn cheap and have barrels of fun. Mine's the same green. I prefer to think of it as "lime green" but either way it doesn't matter much when the wind's up.

Have fun!
 
yep, I knew when I posted pics the lack of inspection port would be noticed. Up until now I was telling myself it will get me by. I hadn't actually heard a first person story about having the mast come down... and I thought It's really bad if it happens... but it's a slim chance. I'll check out the work involved and see if it's a project I'm ready to tackle. It would be nice to see inside the boat and know what I'm dealing with. I've just got a really crowded basement and no work space. Also, fall is coming and that's my white water kayak season... But, as stated by others.. a stitch in time...
what about kevane sails? http://www.kevanesails.com/pr_laser_sail.php It seemed like the cheapest deal I could get on one. I didn't see any bad reviews.
Also, I'm not so worried about the radial sail. I'm at the bottom of the weight range and I think when the boats been empty of water I haven't had too much of a problem keeping it from going over. I think the time I capsized over and over it had gotten a fair bit of water in it. Having too much sail adds a bit more adventure. I will keep an eye out for a radial mast and sail. Used sails don't seem worth it. I wouldn't know how to check their shape well enough to know whether they where worth a damn.
Just checked the weight range.. ok, I'm 35 pounds too light for optimum sailing. I'll keep an eye out for some boat a rich kid got and used twice... If possible I'd like to keep from dumping a whole bunch of cash into an old boat when I might be able to just get a good deal on a newer one all done up.. My boat might be totally water logged too. I need to weigh it and see where I am with that. we'll see. I think if the mast step broke and took out the deck I'd save some of the hardware and probably just search for a whole new set up. It's almost 40 years old and ... it seems like most the time it's cheaper to start anew then to try to rebuild. Perhaps not politically correct, but ...
btw.. trivia... a pyranha white water kayak uses the same size plug as some lasers (luckily mine).
anyway, thanks. It's late for me and I'm afraid I'm starting to ramble.
 
I would strongly second cskudder's advice about the mast tube. I poured water in mine and it drained out, so I paid a guy to go in and reinforce it before I ever really sailed the boat. I also picked up a plate for the bottom of the tube and got the teflon wear strips. Well worth it. When i got flipped the other weekend by a bad gust...read wind shift unintentional gybe, poor judgement sailing too close to the lee... the boat went over not the mast.

My boats older than yours, and i love it. Of course I'd like a newer one, but I don't race and if I'm going to make mistakes I'd rather it be on a $500 boat.

If you feel you are carrying too much sail, take a couple turns about the mast to reef and see how that feels. You can do 2-3 turns before you are up against the top batten, more requires taking the top batten out.

And I'll also second Cskudder's remarks on Intensity sails.
 
If the deck is not soft you may have a boat that can be put into good shape relatively easily. The gunwale crack can be very easily fixed by cleaning out all loose/bad material in the crack with a rotory tool and pouring in polyester resin or epoxy. Make its well dried first. The mast step area needs some attention. Some previous owner just put epoxy or polyester on the surface - this does not help. I'd fix this with some glass cloth and resin and definitely put in an inspection port and reinforce the mast step at the bottom. If the deck is bad (soft, flexing, concave) then it might not be worth doing these repairs. One of my Lasers is very old (sail # 555) with some softness in the deck. It has the mast step reinforced and I expect it to be a good recreational boat for a long time. Good luck and welcome to Laser sailing!
 
Alright, I'm dense.. and perhaps lazy. I am wading through posts but not finding the how to stuff. If you have a link to one you like or advice on what key words I should be searching please post it.
 
For a good start, try http://sailingforums.com/threads/laser-mast-step-repair-not-a-kit.23720/

The search engine has a tab that says 'more' on it, and if you click that and enter your data, you will have more luck. I cannot say why, but this has been my experience in the past.

For what it's worth, the terms I used were mast step repair .. in the 'short version of the search engine it produced nothing for me tonight. But when I went to the 'more' tab, it was full of good stuff..

Maybe 'more' means more luck????:)
 
Spot on about intensity sail stuff.. will be checking the mast step repair stuff. I don't want to buy stuff for a boat that breaks... Great price on the sails.
 
I've only found stuff on replacing the mast step after it's been fubar'd... Yet, from what I glean I cut an inspection hole in the deck, look at what the mast step goes into... and dump epoxy around it.. then seal the hole with an inspection port... which is sealed on.... sound right? Where are good places to get inspection ports and where should I look to get the fiberglass epoxy? I haven't seen marine stores around here.. but I'll have to look harder.
The deck feels very solid.. the mast step area looks bad but also seems solid. I think it's just cracked gel coat and bad repair goo. The mast step holds water great. I think some of the cracks around the area are from where the missing cleat was reefed on too hard... perhaps.
Rob Hair, what specifically worries you about the mast step. I thought gel coat cracks where not a biggie?
 
... not finding the how to stuff. If you have a link to one you like or advice on what key words I should be searching please post it.

There's a lot of good info on this page:
http://sailingforums.com/threads/faq-about-lasers-please-read-before-posting.16355/

Here's some pics of my own mast step failure + repair. I did this in 2003 and have sailed the boat a LOT since then, in wind up to 30 kts. If it's done right, you end up with a very strong boat that'll serve for decades.

If you decide to do it, I'd suggest based on my own experience:
- cut the inspection hole to the side, not on the centerline, and behind the mast. On mine there's a reinforcing structure going down the centerline underneath the deck and it's better and easier to put the hole to the side of this. On mine it's less than 4" wide (2" to either side of centerline). If you put it behind the mast, you can also reach in to thru-bolt the forward hiking strap + mainsheet block anchor point - see below.
- if the "donut" at the bottom of the mast tube is soft, waterlogged, rotten, or otherwise structurally compromised, I'd cut it out rather than glass over it.
- use a very strong glass/epoxy system, like West. (rather than Tru-Value, car repair, etc)
- lay glass from the hull bottom, running up the sides of the mast tube several inches. Put at least 4-6 layers on there and work out any/all air bubbles. Then wrap 1-2 layers around the tube.
- it's worth looking at the joint where the top of the tube joins the deck while you're in there. Use a mirror and a light. Reinforce this too if it looks soft, rotten, cracked, etc. It's harder but if you turn the boat upside down on sawhorses, you can sit underneath it and work "up thru the hole." Not fun but another "stitch in time saves 9" job.

The only other major structural thing that others suggest on old boats is to thru-bolt the other major stress points- like hiking strap anchors, mainsheet block anchor, rudder gudgeons, traveller fairleads. Most of these are screwed into wood in old boats, and they tend to go soft + give out under load. These are a WHOLE lot easier than the mast step, tho you'll end up putting another port in the after deck for the rudder + aft hiking strap anchors. I did all these before anything failed. Having gone thru it with the deck, I "get it" that it's real simple to do it before a failure, and a real PITA to clean it up + repair after something breaks and rips things up as it comes out.

Anyway good luck + have fun sailing it.
 

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Thad, it looks to me as though the cracks you have aft of the mast tube involve more than the gelcoat. In my experience, when you see gelcoat cracked, its accompanied by at least some weakening of the underlying fiberglass. If you put in an inspection port you can check the inner layer of fiberglass in that area and any repair you do inside will not show. As you have probably learned, the deck on Lasers is two layers of fiberglass with foam between.

Cskudder's advice is right on in my experience. I'd add that it may be it may be of some help to hold a small digital camera inside the hull once you have the inspection port hole. I think Intensity sells inspection ports and I know APS has a wide selection of various brands of them.

My older boat had the bottom of the mast tube reinforced by some previous owner, but for my newer (still pretty old 116810) Laser I did the reinforcement. The doughnut was still in good shape, but in my judgement, it was still well worth the 3-4 hours spent. If you put the port aft of the mast (and to the side) you may be able to access at least one side of the dagger board well, as that area sometimes needs repair. Mine had a small leak due to cracking around the well that, by the way, looked about the same as the cracks you have on the deck aft of the mast.

With a generally stiff deck, your boat should serve you well!
 
One other thing I meant to mention - be very careful when applying air pressure to the hull using a vacuum! It very easy to cause serious damage.
 
hard to imagine the pressure of the vacuum cleaner would be more that the pressure that might be encountered while sailing. I will keep it in mind. Right now I just want to fix the gunwale and get out before the sun goes away. Today I'll slap some epoxy in and hopefully I'll do some light wind sailing tomorrow. This week end I might tackle reinforcing the mast step. Great pics, helped give me an idea of what I'll be looking at when I cut into my boat.
 
If a vacuum can produce a pressure increase of just 1 psi (and I suspect that's pretty conservative), that will produce a force of 144 lbs on each square foot of boat surface. If the Laser hull measures 50 sq. ft. (just an estimate), that 1 psi will produce a force of 50 X 144 = 7200 lbs. I wouldn't want that force trying to separate my hull from my deck! The thing that will surely give out long before the boat rips open is that the internal connection between the cockpit and the hull will break apart, since it' is prone to failure anyway. That means another inspection port in the deck aft of the cockpit to fix it.
 
Update: I went cheap and probably temporary. Faced with the epoxy being 4 times more expensive I buckled. I'd went on a shopping spree at the intensity sailing web site and was skiddish about spending too much. I really wanted to get out and sail while the weathers still nice, so I went with the fast curing 5200 for now. I'm also severely tempting fate by waiting a week to put the inspection port in. In a week I figure I'll decide on the size and placement of the inspection port, then do it. If the 5200 holds till then I'll probably put the boat on it's side and pour a cup of epoxy down in the gunwhale and rock it back and forth hoping that will shore up the bond and add stiffness. It might be a waste depending on ... how well it bonds with the unprepared surface. It was an Idea I saw on a forum and I thought it was good until I was typing it out.
If the joint doesn't hold, I'll try again. I'll have to grind out the 5200.. I don't think I got that much in most the joint.
What serious damage can be caused by the vacuum? I figure if it cant withstand that pressure, than it's probably not good with the stresses of water? I didn't have much of a seal anyway, ... but I'd like to hear more.
For those who don't know 5200 it's a 3m product for marine applications. It's an adhesive sealant. Some take 7 days to cure, but the quick curing one is suppose to be good in 24 hours. Tubes run about 15 dollars and a thing you run out of a caulking gun is 19 to 25 bucks. The west coast epoxy is around 40 for a small can and 100bucks for a gallon Or maybe it was a half gallon... hardner is 20 (small can) and 406 is a thickener,... 14 bucks. Anyway, find a marine store and they will have it.
The 5200 was sticky and I wished i'd changed clothes and shoes before rolling around in it. I'll probably start some new posts so if someones looking for info it's easier to find. Thanks all for your advice and patience. If the mast fails before I shore it up I'll come back and tell you how right you all were. Heck, I'm willing to tell you your right right now. It's just I want to take advantage of the nice weather while I have a chance. In the ant and grasshopper story I'm definitely the grasshopper. For the record; I did put the mast in and reef it back and forth to try and determine if failure was eminent. It seemed solid to my eager novice self.
p.s. I really appreciated all your help. I'll post how things go. One thing I did notice was some gel coat cracks where the mast donut would sit. It really makes me wander what stresses it had it the past. Re reading things I keep finding information I didn't know I needed. For instance reading cskudder's stuff I answered a question I just asked myself today, is a four inch inspection port big enough? ... Very well done. I found myself asking that when I was looking at ports and saw clear four inch ones. I especially liked seeing the pics. I'm going to see if you have any of your inspection port.
 
FWIW, my insp ports are: 6" diameter of the actual hole; the rim that screws into the deck is 8" diameter. You could probably do it thru 4" port but it's sure not so easy to work thru a hole. You're the capt, you get to choose.

A quart of West epoxy is certainly enuf to reinforce the mast step. Get glass fiber too- that critical- the glass is what gives it real strength, not the epoxy itself so much.

The mast step presents the real risk of doing damage. The leaks, gunwales, + taking on water is an aggravation but does harm anything, it's just tricker to sail as it takes on water and you gotta drain the boat.

It all depends on (a) the condition of the structure inside your boat, (b) how hard the wind blows, and (c) how hard you sail/trim/hike.

Sure glad you're enjoying it, sure hope it works out well for you.
 
I bought my '78 Laser (and trailer) last Fall for $800 then sold the trailer for $400. I wanted to see if I would enjoy sailing a small dingy. The hull was otherwise firm and worth the effort.

The Laser had 5 inspection ports and leaked through the gunwales and self-bailer. The gunwales were separating like in your photos. I intended to try to open up the seam with a putty knife, clean it, then seal it with epoxy. The entire perimeter separated! The sealing compound used at this time was not a permanent adhesive. It is more like 3M 4200.

A Laser restorer highly recommended fully separating the deck and hull. They are usually "glued" together at the mast base, centerboard trunk, and the bailer pass-through. I found it relatively easy to complete the separation by supporting the deck with straps from above while tensioning the hull down. Go VERY SLOWLY! They will separate. You may need to encourage the mast tube and hull to separate using slight taps on a chisel as a gentle wedge. Remember to go slow and be gentle!

Once it is apart, you can make any repairs to the hull and deck from the inside. I discovered this Laser had a serious accident sometime in its life. This original repair was made through the 5 large inspection ports. I replaced some water logged plywood supports under the cockpit and reworked the original repair.

Once I was happy with the internal repairs, I reassembled the hull and deck using West System Epoxy with 406 colloidal silica adhesive filler. I orientated the deck down, used 206 slow hardener to give myself extra time to orientate and clamp the entire perimeter. You will need lots of clamps to apply pressure everywhere. Don't forget to apply an excess of the epoxy/filler mixture to the mast step and hull interface. This is the only place an inspection port might come in handy, but I don't think it is necessary. I filled in four of the inspection port holes that surrounded the mast step on the deck. I left the one in the cockpit sloping area.

Because the bailer fiberglass area was badly damaged and oversized, I ended up epoxying the brass fitting in place. It is a very functional repair but next time I would make sure the hole in the fiberglass was correct before epoxying the two halves together.

This repair is relatively simple. But it does require time, patience, and basic understanding of epoxy chemistry. Alternatively you can use something like 3M 4200 or 5200 sealer. The hull can be separated again if you do. But the whole boat will not be as stiff as it would be if you used epoxy to seal the hull and deck joint.

These photos are from the professional restorer. I copied his technique...

John


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