Carbon Spars

laser161116

New Member
Are carbon spars in the near future for Lasers? It would make sense b/c isn't carbon stronger and lighter. How much more expensive is carbon than aluminum.

Also, are the black spars that you see in Europe or roostersailing.com carbon, or just painted black.
 
black spars are just black anodized aluminum

Looks like carbon is coming at least for the radials.

Personally I hope they stick with aluminum for the full rig
 
We need to stick with aluinium to keep the cost down. Allowing expensive options like carbon uppers represents a move away from the laser's trademark one-design concept.
 
The WC proposed a carbon upper for the radial because:

1) More flexible
2) Better strength:weight ratio so less weight up top so less heeling moment.
3) More expensive: the builders can make mega profits by flogging an expensive upper to every radial racer worldwide. (Considering they charge millions for a simple aluminium tube, heaven knows what a carbon spar would cost...)
The lower mast would stay aluminium.
However, as well as all the cost disadvantages, the carbon upper would have another set back for the radial class:

The cost of buying a radial rig would increase from sail+lower to sail+lower+expensive upper. Decreasing the effectiveness of the "formula laser"
 
I was at the AGM at the Australian Nationals and there was talk from the International Committee that Carbon Top sections may come out this year as early as July for use in the 2005 Radial Worlds. Has any one else heard anything about this?
 
Prototypes have been available around the world for quite some time now for racers to try and comment on.

SG
 
My guess is if the carbon spar is more bendy then less people will use it as it will bleed off power before you need it to. If the spar is more stiff then we will put more loads on other areas of the boat that normally did not see the leach tension created by a stiffer spar,thus breaking other parts that didnt break before. Hobie Cat went through this and had to amend its class rules to only allow the new upper (made of FG) over the older stiffer aluminum tops.... As crazy as this class is, my guess again is people will buy whatever spars they feel make themselves go fastest over which spar lasts longer or costs least.
 
Well in australia at least there has been great talk about the production of carbon top sections that are appparently "coming out for sure within the new 12-18 months" (i don't think so), there was also a rumor of adding extra length to the rudder to reduce wheather helm. I think that this will not happen laser was made as a sheap simple boat that everyone could afford and that is a major reason to the sucess of the boat, once we start to add carbon and other exotic materials to the boat it turns into another skiff boat or a moth were it isn't actual skill were testing but the bank acount of the sailor! I think if we did end up with carbon spars that then you should only be allowed carbon spars and eliminated the choice of aliminium and carbon spars to keep it all one design. But i think it would be better for the class if we leave it the same way it has been for the last 35 years. ;)
 
Tom wrote:
> Laser was made as a cheap simple boat that everyone could afford
> and that is a major reason to the sucess of the boat ...
> I think if we did end up with carbon spars, then you should only be
> allowed carbon spars, and eliminate the choice of aliminium and carbon
> spars to keep it all one design.

This interests me! But I think the thread has now evolved into a "Laser Class" rather than "Laser Sailing" thread. As such, I will take this to the "Laser Class & Politics" Forum. I just need a bit of time to think about it.

Cheers,

Shevy
 
sailing is all about relative speed making the boat faster(albeit not much) will not make a difference to racing other than make it elitest especially in the junior classes were you see a certain element of who's parents got the biggest wallet, the opposite side of the coin would be bringing the laser into the 21st century but at the end of the day its all about $$$$.
 
We measured a few one season old top sections and spent a little time driving our design software to see what we could manufacture (in carbon) that would give a similar bend rate and increase the durability of the laser top section. Here is what we came up with.
The carbon spar is within 3% of the one season stiffness of the vangard supplied top section. The weight is 3.83 lbs. The EI is 2.12X10 to the 6th. The OD is 1.8" and the cost of manufacturing one of these is $217.00 (bushings would still be needed). This is the real stuff not an inexpensive polyester pultrusion but a carbon epoxy high performance composite. Of course if we could make more than one (lets say 100) the price could drop 25% from the single figure. The best arguments for giong carbon in the top section are for durability and light sailor satisfaction. The rig will be more responsive in a puff as the material (carbon) does have a greater youhngs modulus than the draw aluminum. If any one is interested give us a call or contact us and we will be glad to export the design file.
Thanks Tony, other skiff spars and $ can be seen on our web site www.forterts.com
 
My understanding is that the spars currently being tested are a carbon/fiberglass composite, not strictly carbon, hence the cost will be lower than that estimated by Anthony Delima. One would have to believe that the initial run of these spars would be of order 1000 (this is my guess based on a rough estimate of the number or Radial sailors who might want to switch) so it should be possible to realize at least the 25% production discount he mentions.

I'm told that these spars are currently being used by the Newport Fleet in their winter and spring series. So, those of you near that area should hop on down to check them out. Or ask someone down there what they think. These spars were also tested in Europe and the European Region Chairman reported that the feedback was a unanimous "when can we get these?!?" I'd be interested to hear from Europeans who tested the spars, especially if this statement were not true.

I'm sure the price of a "carbon" upper will initially be higher, though I don't see how the builders are ever going to make "mega" profits from its sale. On the other hand, if what I hear is true, then it sounds to me like a "carbon" spar will be a better value over the long term, especially for people living in areas similar to where I am (San Francisco Bay).

Here we have the problem of the aluminum uppers developing permanent bends and failing frequently, both problems almost entirely the result of having to rivet the mast collar to the upper. Having to always sail with the rivet aft leads to the permanent bend at the mast collar (especially after a nasty death roll with a bit too much vang on). Corrosion eventually weakens the mast around the rivet hold eventually leading to failure (or, more commonly, someone gets frustrated with the permanent bend and tries to go sailing with the rivet forward). It is quite common out here and even I have quite a collection of future booms in my garage.

The testing done so far indicates that the "carbon" spars will have a higher yield (breaking point) than the aluminum spars, they won't develop permanent bends and, more importantly, they appear to be much more uniform in their bend characterisitics (and it is really true that people will go to a dealer and weigh aluminum spars to get the "stiffest" or "bendiest" according to their preference).

Remember that the goal of the "carbon" spar development is to address a common complaint: the top Radial sailors are "larger" than desired (look at the results of the current Radial Worlds in Australia - Michael Blackburn, a bronze medalist in the Laser, is at the top of the leader board in the Radial). Changing the sail by itself has helped but has not been the complete answer. However, boat to boat testing in Europe has shown that the "carbon" upper will open the weight range allowing lighter sailors to be more competitive.

I will try to see if I can get some people currently using these spars in Newport to make some comments (no guaruntees!).

Tracy Usher
ILCA-NA Vice Chairman
 
The World Council asked the builders to continue research and development on Carbon top masts for the Radial. The goal is to produce a new Carbon top mast that would last longer than the Al top mast (ie be significantly less likely to bend or break while sailing), feel somewhat more flexible, and not cost more that 3 times as much

First, the spars in current testing do have carbon in them but they are not entirely carbon. They are a fiberglass/carbon composite. The two best reasons for this are that a full carbon tube would be punishingly expensive, and that carbon is not the most durable stuff in the world when treated to "real world" conditions - impacts, dings and the like. Nonetheless, we have started to call them "carbon tops," and it's convenient to do so, so let's just agree for now to call them "barbon tops." The windsurf guys were referring to "carbon spars" for a decade before any 100% carbon spars were in production.

Second, it is currently an issue on the table for Radial sailors. As someone very correctly pointed out, there is much evidence that the most desirable weight for Radial sailing is a good notch higher than was originally intended. The Mark 6 sail made life easier for lighter sailors, the carbon spar is another outlet for making top level Radial sailing more accessable to lighter people.

Cost is an issue. These new tubes are significantly more expensive to produce than aluminum tubes. If the cost is too high, the project will not fly. A little Johnny Cochrane-ese for you there. The sourcing and type of the spars has obviously been profoundly affected by cost issues. Everyone wants to keep the cost as low as possible.

The benefits to the sailor are, potentially, huge. Yes, the initial cost will be higher. The motivation is to increase reliability, durability and repeatability while lowering long term ownership costs, or at least minimizing expense creep.

The tubes that we have tested have proven to be very rugged over the test period. In "lab" testing, they have proven to be tremendously stronger than aluminum tubes. On the water, we have seen them stand up to 25 knots of breeze with no issue at all. We recently did a bit of harsh "real world" testing, where I seasoned a few carbon spars by beating them against trailers, throwing them to the ground, hanging family members from them and whatnot, and then giving them to close friends and family members to go and try to break. We did excercises like repeated top mark roundings with full vang and cunningham on, deathrolls at speed, brutally excessive rocking, etc. The wager was that any sailor breaking a top would have the sail that he was using replaced with a new one, so the motivation to break them was there in spades. None broke, nor have any of them broken in normal sailing since.
 
Samez i Havent got evough money to spend on a new carbon section every year due to UV depletion of carbon( which it is most famous for)!
 
Carbon is not that badly affected by UV, and in any case, it is covered while it is IN the sail. It will be a good idea to cover the top when it's not in use, but it's a good idea to cover EVERYTHING when it's not in use.
A simple mast sock will be great to have if the carbon tops come into play, just like simple mast socks are great to have now, only maybe more so.
 
Dear Mr. Kirkpatrick,

I have a question, I have no answer - maybe you, please.

In the German YACHT magazine (No 5 / 2004), there was a report of our 49er-pro´s about their mission to Athen.
In this artikle there is written, that our hopeful sucssesful team needed five masts to buy and testing them intensive, only to get their maybe one "golden", because the stiffness in cabon masts can differ (in reason of production). The German Finn-pro Mr. Fellmann needs three masts (one cots nearly 3500 Euro, 1 Euro is 1,2 US $) "to be happy" (YACHT No.7 / 2004).
How it is get saved, that every produced carbonic mast for the Laser has EXACT/PRECISE the same stiffness as our Laser-class-laws it strictly demands (1design/fundamental-rule)? (You know, that quality-problems (<-in general) in reason of producing-processes is best known at every Laser boat owner since over 30 years.)

From Germany I know that an Europe-sailing-boat carbon mast costs about 1200 - 1300 Euro. The last cost I told, is, in my opinion, the direction, we eventually must in reality save our money for - of course for the both mast parts of Laser sailboat, I agree.
This is to much for me as Lasercruiser. But I must agree, Mr. Kirkpatrick, when the carbon part will come into the Laserclass, as Lasercruiser I´m happy, too. :)
Because of the many aluminium upper masts, that must get changed. I will now start to save all my money for the tiome when changing beginns, to get a bundle of the old ones very-very cheap of course ( + enough for the rest of my life as Lasersailor in Laserclass).
I need not too much, because in 29 years of my experiance in sailing the Laser boat in all winds, none of the spars of the boats (all produced in the UK) I sailed strong, got broken or bend here. Maybe other had other problems with that, I don´t know one person here who had. :)

To the UV-Light problem I can say: In my experiance not the c-mast but the sailcloth, that are made of carbon/kevlar, get out of form, espacially at the leech (lenght gets lost). AND: using a sail, made of carbon/kevlar, does not mean a less of quantity of needed sails a year, than it is now with the bad "3.8"ones already a lot of.
Of course, as recreational Laser sailor, I don´t know really anything about, if this carbon/kevlar sailclothes are commig to the Laserclass. Do you?

Thanks, already yet, for your sufficiend answers Mr. Kirkpatrick (and all others out there)
+
Have all a peaceful Easter, please! :)
Greetings from Germany
LooserLu
GER 46438
DLAS-member

PS to clarky: Very interesting question, I also think. Sorry clarky, but I also don´t know - maybe Mr. Usher knows and tells us, if possible - thanks :)
 
This is all very interesting and I think I'd consider buying a carbon top section if the price was no more than twice that of an Aluminium one - especially as my old section is pitted and has a few dings so I'm expecting it to fail some time and at our club we seem to lose 3-4 per year.
The other critical question though is when is it likely to come in to production + get approved ? I think I read that ILCA (the World Council ?) are involved in the testing but does anyone have any best guesses, maybe based on how long other changes have taken, as to when we're likely to be able to use them ?
 
The change is only on the table right now for Radials. Whether it is envisioned, longer term, for full rigs I can not say because I do not know. It might make sense, but it might not.
Finn and Europe masts are more complex. Sailors in these classes have different masts for different conditions. They are taking advantage of the ability to closely engineer composite masts to their liking.
The predominant lack of this type of behavior in the Laser Class (there are many I know who have favorite sections) owes mostly to the fact that the major championships (Worlds, Olympics and some Olympic Trials) are sailed using supplied equipment, where you get what you get. It is to the sailors benefit to be familiar with as broad a range of equipment as can be expected at one of these regattas. That range is fairly tight anyway.
Kevlar has hideous tolerance to UV. In any case, this isn't a debate about sails, since a materials change for sails is not on the horizon, and the applicability of a material to one application may mean nothing about its applicability to another. And if you have ever used carbon sails in a logical application for them, you will know just exactly how great they are.
As I said, the carbon tops which we have tested have had closer tolerances that aluminum ones.
 
Dear Mr. Kirkpartick,
thank you for your fast reply. To your words I have to say:

>Finn and Europe masts are more complex.

Yes, of course.

>Sailors in these classes have different masts for different conditions.
>They are taking advantage of the ability to closely engineer composite
>masts to their liking

Not at all, I guess, 49er and Finn are also 1design (Olympic-) classes . And have strict class rules they must obey to (/follow to) - Maybe not so strict like at Laserclass.

>The predominant lack of this type of behavior in the Laser Class (there are
> many I know who have favorite sections) owes mostly to the fact that the
> major championships (Worlds, Olympics and some Olympic Trials) are
> sailed using supplied equipment, where you get what you get.....

And here, please not forget, that there are "a few" other races in the world... There, sailing is allowed on sailor-owned boats, you know of couse too. And at the secondary-level-big-races are racing sailors, with own or(and) localy hired Laser boats. So there ARE "(a little bit) different" boats racing (sorry for my English, please), I believe.

Of course, I know, the personal ability to sail (athletics, strategy-knowledgement, boathandling, psychologic strongness) and at least lucky winds / lucky currents of the sea are much more important facts to get a successfull result in racing, than only the different qualities of boats.
But last what I said can be important to "the `few´ not-pro´s" im talking about, too. Don´t forget this aspect, please. :) Laserclass is famous not only, because there are somewhere some rather good pro´s who maybe believe they are the "only ones" on the water and all the other must do as they (or their officials) like.

BOTH are the advertising to our Laserboat. And, I hope, sailors like me, who can´t stop sailing the Laser, but are non-racers. :)

>As I said, the carbon tops which we have tested have had closer tolerances
>that aluminum ones.

If "you" (I mean: in future: the out-of-the-box-boat builder) can guarantee this (in Germany we have 2 years "guarantiee-time" by law), then this aspect of qualitiy in production is a "+" for decision to by a carbonic upper mast part, I think.

>And if you have ever used carbon sails in a logical application for them, you will know just exactly
>how great they are.

Yes, I´ve already sailed with (Europe´s, 14´ Footer, some recreational Cat´s) :)

Greetings from Germany

LooserLu
GER 46438 / DLAS-member
- the in a few days at Easter in-"Aprilweather"-maybe-getting-frozen in the Netherlands sailing Lasercruiser (air is at 8-10Celsius, water: 10C, only 3-4 Bft)
 
Regarding the 49er sailors you mention, 49ers seem to be more "mast sensitive" than Lasers. The masts are quite a bit more complex (when you think you have the perfect flex mast then you have to be sure the sail track is on dead straight, for example.
But the fact is that what your 49er friends are doing can just as easily happen in the Laser Class, and happens to some degree now, but not to the degree with which those 49er sailors are pursuing it.
Based on the characteristics of the carbon tops we've seen to date, there will be less necessity to select masts as they have thus far proven to be more consistent than aluminum.
Remember, this change is only currently under consideration for Radials.
The Finn mast is totally inapplicable to this discussion as their mast rules are vastly more liberal than the Laser Class rules.
 
Dave Kirkpatrick said:
.... In any case, this isn't a debate about sails, since a materials change for sails is not on the horizon, and the applicability of a material to one application may mean nothing about its applicability to another....
Hi,
although Dave Kirkpatrick has moved, I have questions again now.
Not a long time ago, I found something in the internet, I´m not sure what´s going on there. At the homepage of a Sailmaker for windsurfersails this sailmaker proudly presents his new wind-tunnel. In the text to this wind-tunnel, they report about testing of a new windsurfersail and: guess what else, yes, a Lasersail! Do they do it only for fun (f.e. to test the wind-tunnel) or is there more to report. Did they test f.e. a Laser2-sail or a LaserPico-Sail. I tried to ask them about it, but until today there came no answer. Can somone tell me more?

Here is the related web-site:
http://www.loftsails.com/index.php?news_id=19

And a Hardcopy from that site (sorry for the bad quality):
http://www.laserforum.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=101&stc=1

bye-bye
LooserLu
 

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LooserLu said:
Hi,
In the text to this wind-tunnel, they report about testing of a new windsurfersail and: guess what else, yes, a Lasersail! Do they do it only for fun (f.e. to test the wind-tunnel) or is there more to report. Did they test f.e. a Laser2-sail or a LaserPico-Sail. I tried to ask them about it, but until today there came no answer. Can somone tell me more?

Here is the related web-site:
http://www.loftsails.com/index.php?news_id=19

bye-bye
LooserLu

Here is the text from the Loftsails website. You'd need a microscope to read the attachment. Sorry, LooserLu! Yes, good question. Do they do it for fun?

Guten Tag, Merrily

"Working with Jose Terres-Nicoli two 1:5 scale models were produced at The Loft; an O2 Freeride Concept 6.6 and the Olympic class Laser sail. Built into the two models are more than 20 micro-tubes in each, which are used to measure air-pressures at specific locations. Air pressures are measured at the micro-tube ends, the tubes are led forward to the mast and travel down inside the mast pocket and connect to computer-sensors under the tunnel which assimilate the datas."
 
Hi,
the attachement I made, is only to find the text quick at that website not -not to ruin your eyes. Sorry, I´ve forgotten to make a notice for that.

Although I didn´t expected an answer aft so much time, the sailmaker answered today. This is a quotation from him:
<<...The Laser sail I produced for the CEAMA wind-tunnel study is a 1:5 scale model of the standard Laser-class sail. The model includes 18 micro-tubes which allow air-pressures at the 18 points on one side of the sail to be measured by the CEAMA technicians.
This model was produced specifically for the opening ceremony of the wind tunnel which the Spanish royals attended. The King of Spain is an avid sailor and follws the Olympic classes...>>
So, "I" can cool down again... for a while...no requriement to add "something" on the list for Santa Claus(e)... :D
But keep your eyes open, ok. From my personal experiance, I don´t believe in anything from the out-of-the-box-boat-builders. Which always seem to act behind the back of us all (see: the last builder-conference in Bitez at WC-2004), and then, "oh surprise", there is something new and we all have to eat it - without arguing...
Ciao
LooserLu


@ Merrily:
>>..Guten Tag...<< correct said, some more German-words and you can join Paige R. to start with her at Kiel-Week 2005... (http://www.kielerwoche.de/eng/englishdefault.htm) ;)
 
Hi,

I do appreciate Dave K's work and responses to this bent/broken top problem. I would like to ask he and others why the Class hasn't moved to an obvious solution like allowing sleeves to be inserted inside the top?

This was a simple solution for the bent booms, relatively cheap, and at the sailor's option? A little weight aloft, and the resulting stiffness could be adjusted by minimizing the sleeve length and position. Yet, it seems it would eliminate the REAL problem of breaking spars, and the resulting danger and costs. I can't imagine trying to get back to the ST. Francis YC with a "gaff" rig? I'd end up in Berkeley (or Alcatraz!)

Plus, us cheapskates could start a cottage industry, cutting up old broken tops to make sleeves, as we now do for booms.

Thanks in advance,

Al Russell 66451
 
interesting thread. some thoughts I have are......cost--If you compare the costs involved in regular replacement of crappy aluminum poles,,vs a bit more $,spent once,,,the economics balance out pretty well,,,,,,,and when you factor in the enhanced performance of a glass/carbon spar,,,,and how the sailor weight-range can be tweaked through stiffness--such a change would enhance the class

It would be interesting to look at the idea of >>sleeving<< glass/carbon topsections,,such that you'd buy a sleeve to suit your weight--might not seem very one-design,,,but would just match what exists in aluminum spar variables!!!
 
hey
i am a normal teenager sailing a laser radial on the weekends. i think it would be stupid to change such a good one-design fleet. "if its not brocken why change it!?!?!?!?!?!?!" im not ashamed to admit i wont be able to afford the new top section. iv only jst bought the harken kicker, cuningham and outhaul.
 
It would be good if carbon spars helped lighter sailors sail the Radial competitively. The Europe Dinghy sailors freaked out when the Radial was chosen for the women's single handed class in the Olympics, instead of the Europe, because they are too light to win races with the Radial.

On the other hand, the Radial won out over the Europe because it's less expensive to produce, and its use in the Olympics would allow more developing countries to compete. If changing to carbon spars significantly increases the price, it will bring it more in line with the price of the Europe, and that advantage will be lost.

The Europe carbon spars are designed for each sailor's weight. This means that the weight of the sailor is not an advantage or disadvantage, just pure skill, should win the race. But a sailor buying a used boat has to find a mast bent for his weight. Of course this makes boat buying more complex. Does anyone know if this sort of thing is contemplated for the Laser?

On a personal note, if there is less "heeling moment" as someone wrote, with a lighter, upper carbon spar, I would be happy. Anything that means Merrily spends less time in the water can't be bad.

Janet
 
Hi Everyone,
It might be useful to go back to the beginning of this thread and read the postings by Dave Kirkpatrick (who was the product manager for Vanguard when he posted those messages) on the composite upper which is under development. The main point I want to make here is that the underlying goal is to produce a slightly more flexible spar which will help open the competitive weight range in the Radial. But it will NOT be like the Europe, you will NOT go searching for a spar that fits your weight. Just like now, all upper sections will have the same characteristics, they will just be more flexible than their aluminum counterparts.
If you read Dave's postings you will see that, if approved by the class, they will be more expensive than the aluminum spars (but I think less than twice the price). However, they won't develop permanent bends or break as easily/frequently as the aluminum. So, if you are an active sailor frequently sailing in breezy conditions you will probably end up way ahead in the end.

Tracy Usher
 
i was woundering, would you still be able to race the aluminum spars at open meetings. And iv never brocken or bent a section despite having sailed in some heavy winds.
 

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