Capsize

edsandra

New Member
I have searched this site and do not see a discussion thread on capsizing. I recently purchased a 1990 Mod 2 Capri 14.2 and am concerned about the boat turtling if I capsize.

My owner’s manual on page 8 says “The top of the mast is factory sealed and should be checked for leakage. A well sealed masthead will reduce the possibility of turtling.�

Does the sealed mast really keep the boat from TURTLING? The Vagabond 14 discussion group talks about tying plastic bottles and life jackets to the masthead to prevent turtling. Any discussion on this subject will be greatly appreciated.

Also, any discussion in general about capsizing would be appreciated.

Thanks,

Ed
 
There's a small section on turtling in the FAQ of this website. I recall quite a bit of discussion on turtling on the previous forum. I don't know if our webmaster can restore any of that for you.
 
Turtling

Ed,

I've heard a few ways to prevent your boat from going turtle, here they are:

1. Check to see that your mast is sealed first of all. Look into the end of it with a flashlight, if it's not sealed, you'll know. If not, go to Home Depot and get a can of "Great Stuff". It's an expanding foam in a can. I bought two cans and a long piece of tubing to fit over the can's nozzle and filled the whole mast with the stuff, just to be sure.

2. If you buy the 14.2 hand book from this site (I can't tell you how many answers you will find in it) it describes a pocket sewn in to the top 24 inches of the main sail that you can put a piece of styrofoam in.

3. One guy up hear attached a dock bumper to the front of the mast head. Another guy had a empty milk jug tied to each spreader (not very nice to look at).

Hope that helps.
 
Turtle

The foam filled mast may help a little but not in high winds.
I've had my mast stuck in the mud.
It's not fun.
Attached is a picture of the Hobie float that is on the top of my mast.
With the Hobie float I have had no tendency to turtle.
There was a write up in the Main Sheet some time back.
 
Float

That's a sharp looking float! Is that just a bolt on thing, or did you have to fabricate the bracket?
 
I have a used hobie float that I am willing to sell. I'll post it on the classified, or let me know if you are interested.
 
Thanks for all of the great discussion.

The FAQ section on Turtling has some good ideas and are definately worth reading. Thanks, Rudy.

How dificult is it to get back in the boat after a capsize? I read some where that a rope with a loop hung off the transom can be a great help in getting back in the boat.

I had not considered the possibility that the mast could get stuck in the mud. Art, did you require the assistance of a power boat to get free? That is a really nice looking bracket on your Hobbie Float.

Kim, where did you buy closed cell foam? That looks to be about 14 to 16 inches high on the luff?

Again thanks.

Ed
 
edsandra Look around at the other photos in that link by hitting the next button and you will see where I go the foam from. It was a mat that I found at Sam's warehouse. I tested the pieces after I cut them and got 17-18lbs of flotation out of them. It took a while to find something that would work. Some places sell closed cell foam, but some of that breaks down in heat and sun. This stuff looked pretty tough and was till pretty flexible. I got the dimensions from the c14 manual (that the organization sells here) from the floatation sleeve that Catalina sells. I just sewed the foam in permenantly. I haven't had the chance to test it too much yet this year, but I think it will be ok.
 
Turtle experience

The 14.2 does turtle and once done requires significant assistance to right boat (i.e. two power boats). I bought the Catalina floatation cover that extends down the top of the sail 18" or so but think it looks sloppy so mounted a Hobby Mast head float to the mast top. I haven't been "over" since then so don't know how well it works.
 
capsizing / mast float

I am that guy that has the gallon jug tied to the mast. It not only does not look all that good but I found out from experience that it does not work. With the help of an inexperienced friend I tipped and flipped. With help from a fisherman and his motor boat we pulled it back to the ramp upside down. I had a problem in that the water was not as deep as the mast is tall. I pulled the pin that holds the forstay to the bow. The jug on my mast floated the mast to the under side of the hull then it was easy to tow , dragging only my furler and jib on the bottom. I want one of those Hobic mast floats. I also lost my outboard motor. I also want another one of those. A bad day sailing is not always better than a good day at work. Thanks for letting me vent.
 
capsizing / mast float

I am that guy that has the gallon jug tied to the mast. It not only does not look all that good but I found out from experience that it does not work. With the help of an inexperienced friend I tipped and flipped. With help from a fisherman and his motor boat we pulled it back to the ramp upside down. I had a problem in that the water was not as deep as the mast is tall. I pulled the pin that holds the forstay to the bow. The jug on my mast floated the mast to the under side of the hull then it was easy to tow , dragging only my furler and jib on the bottom. I want one of those Hobic mast floats. I also lost my outboard motor. I also want another one of those. A bad day sailing is not always better than a good day at work. Thanks for letting me vent.
 
Regrets

I had not followed this thread. Didn't see the questions until now.

The time I had the mast in the mud I had two skiers stop and swim over to give a hand. We were able to set it up without power. The wind and wave action rotated the boat around the stuck mast untill the boat was down wind from the mast. It than released from the mud and we set it up and I thanked my rescuers and went back to sailing.

My Hobie float is attached with a wood block shaped to fit the mast and the brackets provided by Hobie.
 
So a gallon jug does not provide enough flotation to keep a C14 from turtling? I would have thought that it would be more than enough. I wonder how much flotation is required? You would think that a gallon jug of air 20 feet down in the water would give a lot of lifting force and make the mast come out of the water. What was the problem with righting the boat out in the lake? I have my outboard mounted with clamps but I also have a cable that is pad locked to the outboard motor and then attached to the eyebolt that I have right above my hiking strap on the stern. This was to keep honest folks honest and to prevent sacrificing a motor to the lake Gods should the mount break or the motor come loose in a capsize. This is some good info that we all need to know John Mahaffey , What were all the particulars that you can remember. Were the mainsheet and jibsheet released? Was the wind really high? Do you know what caused the capsize?
 
Turtle

In my case it was relatively light wind but my crew was not on the upwind side of the boat (actually was in the center) when a gust of wind came up and despite releasing the sheets there was too much momentum over and crew was too low in the boat. This is a centerboard model...don't know if that makes it any more sensative to going over.

...hence the boat's name now...Over/Easy!

Chuck
 
I teach juniors with the 14.2's and they will capsize. A couple of things that I learned from this forum: I got a 3 liter bottle, cut two holes in the bottom through which I ran a line that looped back out through the spout. I then filled the bottle with expanding foam. We attach the loop of line in the main halyard shackle and raise the bottle with the main sail. The boat will float for hours on its side and the kids can take all the time they need to right the boat without fear of turtling. The boat is so wide, the smaller kids have a hard time getting up on the centerboard but if two kids will be patient and pull down on the end of the board it will come up (provided the main is not cleated). The boat is hard to board from the water. I tie a six foot line with a loop on the bitter end to the back of the hiking strap. Once the boat is righted, reach over the transom and retrieve the line and use the loop as a boarding step. I have watched from the dock as kids struggle to right the boat for what seems like an eternity but boy are they gratified when they finally get it up by themselves.
 
I have thought of just taking my boat out on a hot day and removing anything that might fall over and capsizing the boat on purpose a couple times just to for practice and to see how difficult it will be should it happen unexpectantly. I also want to know if my floation in the top of the mains'l will be sufficient. I don't think my wife will be game for this though.
 
High wind

The one thing that makes it hard to check out mast floatation is the effect of high winds on the large area of the bottom of the boat. A float that will keep the boat on its side all day will not keep it from turtling when 20 plus wind is hitting the bottom of the hull. Any amount of floatation will help. The float I have is the one intended for the Hobie 14. I would not want less especially while sailing with young kids. I want to be able to let the boat take care of itself until the I know the kids are OK.
 
Two questions. 1. Is the Hobie float removable for mast storage and boat transporation, etc. 2. Does this float add a lot of extra windage to the mast when sailing on a beam reach, etc. 20 knots of wind is probably a lot more than I would try to sail in anyway, even with the main reefed and the jib furled, but I may get braver as I get more sailing days in. I would imagine the boat would really move in that much wind.
 
Hobie Float

You may not be familiar with the Hobie mast, but it piviots. This helps reduce the windage of the Hobie Float by turning it into the wind.

It would be better if the Hobie Float could be mounted on the C14.2 mast with a rod that would allow the float to piviot like a wind indicator.

Maybe the 3 litter bottle filled with foam with a rod anchored in the foam and protruding out the side of the bottle could be used in place if the Hobie Float.
 
Float

One gallon is equal to 4.4 litters.
A gallon of water weighs about 8 pounds.
This is the maximum floatation available from a gallon jug.
In the November 2002 Mainsheet Ed Jones printed an article about Turtling. The Hobie float #30115 produces 24 pounds of floatation and costs about $90.00 in 2002.
I didn't make my adapter to be quickly removed but I'm sure that could be done. Mine only requires two screws.
It is the gusts that dump us in Kansas. A nice breeze can have a monster gust every so often. I tend to get too relaxed and don't at times respond quick enough.
The float is just some insurnace that I will have a good day on the lake even if I do dump a time or two.
I'm sure I pay a speed penalty by having the float aloft but to me it is worth it.
A day on the water is still the best medicine I know of.
 
capsizing

All of the contributing factors, while seemingly unrelated, were my own fault because I was the captain and it is my boat. The Day and the weather was perfect. Wind was 10mph . I ask a friend to go sailing that admitedly had never been sailing before. While setting up the boat he wanted to help so I ask him to tighten the screws on the motor and attach the safty rope with the pink clip. neither of which I checked. ........ I told him that when the boat leans he should come to the high side. He did not hear, or understand or process the information it dosn't matter. Also I forgot to clip the bungie cord to the centerboard. It stayed down so I thought it was OK . My friend out weighed me by 75 pounds. We came about on our first tack and he did not come to th high side. With that much weight down there I could not lean out far enough so when I leaned in to relaese the main we went over. My mast sank to my surprise. My friend can not swim so he spent several valuable minutes tring to clip his life jacket instead of climbing on top of the hull to help me right the boat. Here is where the forgoten bungie cord came into play. The center board was inside the hull instead of standing up to use as leverage. Also with the boat upside down and the water temp. at about 60 I could not release the main or jib sheet to make it easier to flip. Here are some lessons we can learn....1) Be sure everybody on the boat knows where to be when you come about. ...2) Always check other peoples work (TRUST BUT VERIFY)......3)Communication is critical. Have the crew repeat or at least acknowlege(sp?) your directions and intentions . Oh buy the way I found a bigger jug. HAPPY SAILING John
 
Re: Float

Originally posted by Art Porter
One gallon is equal to 4.4 litters.
A gallon of water weighs about 8 pounds.
This is the maximum floatation available from a gallon jug.
In the November 2002 Mainsheet Ed Jones printed an article about Turtling. The Hobie float #30115 produces 24 pounds of floatation and costs about $90.00 in 2002.
I didn't make my adapter to be quickly removed but I'm sure that could be done. Mine only requires two screws.
It is the gusts that dump us in Kansas. A nice breeze can have a monster gust every so often. I tend to get too relaxed and don't at times respond quick enough.
The float is just some insurnace that I will have a good day on the lake even if I do dump a time or two.
I'm sure I pay a speed penalty by having the float aloft but to me it is worth it.
A day on the water is still the best medicine I know of.
One US gallon is actually 3.78 liters and a gallon of water weighs about 8.3 pounds, but I believe a gallon of air will float a lot more than 8.3 pounds. The deeper it goes into the water the more lifting force it should have due to the increased pressure at that depth. It would be interesting to find out what the formula is. I know a gallon jug is enough to keep a person afloat in the water, but I don't know what a person in water actually weighs compared to on land. I put some foam in my mainsail at the top and I checked it with actual weights in a bathtub before I installed it and it floated over 17 lbs of weights.
 
Catalina's sail top float is now $125. I have a Hobie float, but it gets in the way of my Windex wind indicator. Actually, I would like to sell the Hobie float. I'll try to post it in the for sale area.
 
Floatation Pocket

The Vagabond 14 web site on Yahoo has a really nice illustrated set of instructions for creating a sail pocket. The pocket accepts two pieces of 1/2 inch closed cell foam and attaches to the head of the sail. It provides 18 pounds of floatation.

The nice thing is you can chose to attach the pocket or not depending on the wind conditions.

I have tried to attach the instructions to this post. Lets see if it works.

Ed
 

Attachments

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Just a thought...

Prior to resealing the mast with expandable foam, as I think it may be time to do so with my '89 Model 2, would it be of any benefit to bouyancy beyond the trapped air to insert a couple of those foam swim noodles into the mast?
 
The time I stuck the mast in the mud about ten feet under I had a 4" round dock bumper tied to the top of the mast.
It went it under when the wind was hitting the bottom of the boat.
The foam in the mast and the dock bumper were not enough.
Floatation force is equal to the weight of the water displaced.
The bumper was roughly equal in volume to the 3 liter bottle that was suggested earlier.
Two have talked of foam sheet inside pockets that generate 17 or 18 pounds of floatation This is roughly equal to three times that of a three liter float.
This is almost equal to the Hobie float that produces 24 pounds.
 
Re: Just a thought...

Originally posted by Jeff
Prior to resealing the mast with expandable foam, as I think it may be time to do so with my '89 Model 2, would it be of any benefit to bouyancy beyond the trapped air to insert a couple of those foam swim noodles into the mast?

Those foam noodles don't last much more than one season around my house before it starts to desinegrate. Also, noodles really don't have much bouncy. A kid can sink one quickly. I don't think I would want to use that in my mast.
 
See, I knew someone here would have more experience with a swim noodle than me. Thanks for the input, endkaos!

Larry, there is an adapter that I saw in the APS catalog -- the Davis Universal Masthead Mount -- that extends a Windex 15 or Sport 10 away from masthead obstructions. Might allow you to have the Hobie float and the Windex at same time. Cost is $18.35 at APS. How much stuff you want atop the mast is another question.
 
Hobie float #30115

This is the one I have.

The Hobie float #30115 produces 24 pounds of floatation and costs about $90.00 in 2002.

It does not fit without an adapter of some sort.
I made mine from mohogany
 

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