C5, C6 and C8

Thread starter #1
Sorry for the extra post. Doug from Improper Course has a picture of all three rigs, and I thought I might share them.
All sorts of pretty colours :)


Doug's message is as follows:

This year, the Laser is 50 years old. It's truly amazing how well Bruce Kirby's design and Ian Bruce's production techniques have stood the test of time. But change is inevitable and the Mark II sail was an attempt to extend the life of Bruce's original design.

This year we'll see the introduction of brand new carbon rigs that will extend the life of the class. There are several firms working on different designs, the following are by far the best we have seen. Watch this space for pricing and availability.

Italics are mine. Source: Improper Course

Improper Course has a good relationship with Bethwaite, and they were also the first to upload the C5 clip, so Doug's info is pretty accurate.

Any thoughts?

EDIT: In a comment, Doug says the rigs are the result of 29er and 49er research. Good or bad?
 
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LaLi

Well-Known Member
#2
Delicious! A mixed fleet of those should look good :D
I just wonder what the weight ranges of those would be?

In a comment, Doug says the rigs are the result of 29er and 49er research. Good or bad?
Extremely good, fundamentally. Those rigs are in turn based on 18-footer research, so we're talking about the pinnacle of dinghy design in general. Bethwaite also designed the CI and CII rigs for the Byte, so he should know how to apply the skiff technology to una-rigged, unstayed boats. But it doesn't really answer the question that was asked in the comments, that is, why do the C rigs have the boom so low?

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Wavedancer

Upside down?
Staff member
#5
One of the joys of Laser sailing is to bust your head once in a while.
May explain why my posts sometimes make no sense...
 

LaLi

Well-Known Member
#6
The boom seems very high on the C rigs.
Just measuring from the pictures, the gooseneck on the C rigs is roughly 30 % lower than on the current masts. The "ducking height" of the boom is another matter, and from the previously released video I'd estimate that there would be little to no change.
I agree that they could have raised it a little while at it.

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Rob B

Active Member
#7
Just measuring from the pictures, the gooseneck on the C rigs is roughly 30 % lower than on the current masts. The "ducking height" of the boom is another matter, and from the previously released video I'd estimate that there would be little to no change.
I agree that they could have raised it a little while at it.

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Oh. I was looking at the end of the boom. With the reverse vang I don't think the new upwind trim will be anywhere near block to block though right?
 

LaLi

Well-Known Member
#8
I was looking at the end of the boom. With the reverse vang I don't think the new upwind trim will be anywhere near block to block though right?
Ok. It has nothing to do whether the vang is pulling or pushing, but yes, it looks like the aft end of the C-rig boom won't get very close to the deck, ever. That means the traveller probably needs to be trimmed (and if rules are changed, possibly even rigged) differently. That in turn might mean no need for carbon tillers anymore, which would save more than a hundred € or $ per boat.

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LaLi

Well-Known Member
#10
Doesn't look nearly as good as the PSA effort. What does LP think they're gaining with this? Anyway, they now seem to have extended the two lowest battens all the way to the luff. Also there's now a "Sails by Laser" patch (like on the Radial and 4.7 sails) at the tack instead of a Doyle logo. Maybe they think it's more "official".

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#11
I have some questions that I hope some of you who may have seen the "C" rigs or may have seen or used similar rigs on 29er, etc. boats may be able to answer.

It looks like the vang is above the boom and acts in compression. This must be some kind of stick, rod, or tube. I assume it is a substantial piece in order to prevent it from buckling. It looks curved - does it flex in use? Is one end in some sort of track? How is it adjusted? Does a control line go down to the deck?

It looks like the foot of the sail is two parts with each going on its side of the vang and boom and then joining near the bottom of the mast, right? Are there two mast racks below the point where the sail splits?

The similarities to a modern sailboard rig are clear. Do these "C" rigs use large amounts of down haul tension and relatively light out haul tension like sailboard rigs? Control line on the deck? I can see what looks like a large block on the deck near the mast.

There is apparently a track in the mast for the luff of the sail. Is there a halyard so that the sail can be raised with the mast first placed in the hull? This could make set up easier in strong winds.

Thanks!
 

LaLi

Well-Known Member
#12
It looks like the vang is above the boom and acts in compression. This must be some kind of stick, rod, or tube. I assume it is a substantial piece in order to prevent it from buckling. It looks curved - does it flex in use? Is one end in some sort of track? How is it adjusted? Does a control line go down to the deck?
There have been different solutions to this in different classes; the 29er has a round tube, while the 49er has two parallel square tubes, with a lever plate in between. All that I have seen (including ones on the Laser 4000, Musto Skiff, etc.) have been made of aluminium, straight and not intended to bend. The C-rig vang struts do strangely look like they are straight in some pictures and (pre)bent in others. No idea what that is about.

The most common way of adjusting the strut is on a track or a slide on the boom. The C-rigs seem to have this on the mast, with a purchase system inside the "pocket", and the line coming then down to the deck.

IIt looks like the foot of the sail is two parts with each going on its side of the vang and boom and then joining near the bottom of the mast, right? Are there two mast racks below the point where the sail splits?
No, the other piece wraps around the mast and attaches to the other by a zipper. This is clearly shown in the video.

The similarities to a modern sailboard rig are clear. Do these "C" rigs use large amounts of down haul tension and relatively light out haul tension like sailboard rigs? Control line on the deck? I can see what looks like a large block on the deck near the mast.
With full-length battens, mast bend is quite effectively adjusted by cunningham tension. What LoonyGryphon has told is that the cunningham and vang adjustments lead to the existing deck blocks and cleats while the outhaul stays on the boom.

There is apparently a track in the mast for the luff of the sail. Is there a halyard so that the sail can be raised with the mast first placed in the hull?
No halyard in sight. It's probably the same as with the new LP rig: the sail is "hoisted" from the top down, before putting the mast on the boat, like we've always done... except there's a bolt rope and a track now.

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Thread starter #14
Look what I found... Good old Ken Hurling has done it again!
from here: Lasers Down Under

'Ken went on to elaborate on the ILCA approved field test rigs and the timing for their introduction. Ken said “So where are we right now? Patents approved, masts, boom, sails with insert ID, parts supplies contracts to be approved, and the whole rig for final testing in March April 2019. It is hoped that the first 100 C5 Rigs should be ready for sale after May 2019 – a record for ILCA – just 4 years since the concept started. Watch closely for the C5 Rig coming to a club near you or for information from your local dealer.” '

Italics are mine. So what are we going to get? The dodgy ARC rig from LP, or the shiny new C-rigs which will be available in less than three months?
 

LaLi

Well-Known Member
#19
the rudder is simple and excellent.
This is getting off topic, but actually the rudder is the only part of the Laser of which Bruce Kirby has said he'd redesign. Elliptic with 30 % more area, if I remember it right.

Some new designs were tested around the year 2000, but somehow that change got buried under the other changes at the time.

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#20
You are right Lali, this is getting off topic so if you have any information about the Bruce Kirby - redesign, elliptic with 30% more area or new designs tested around the year 2000. Please be so kind and share something about that in new separate topic because it is very interesting.
Thanks in advance.
 
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