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Bottleport reviewed by Tillerman

hdco1313

New Member
For those thinking "will he stop posting about the Bottleport already," I'm sorry for the deluge. But I was really happy to read Tillerman's review on his Proper Course blog because I am a real fan. The Facebook group "Seven Reasons to Hate a Laser Sailor" was inspired by one of Tillerman's posts. Here's his Bottleport review:

http://propercourse.blogspot.com/2008/10/bottleport.html

It's worth checking out the rest of his blog if you haven't already. Great stuff there...

Thanks for reading,

Greg Little

www.bottleport.com
 

hdco1313

New Member
Thanks Merrily, look forward to your findings as I've mostly used it with the bicycle water bottles or one that I've bought at 7-11 etc.

Sigh. Duty probably dictates that I also should get out there and do some thorough can testing. I wonder how many crushed empties you could fit underneath a 16oz Silver Bullet? :D I like the 24oz stack idea too. And what is a cigarette keg? Really the possibilities are endless!

Cheers,

Greg Little
greg@bottleport.com
 

pez

Member
Thanks Merrily, look forward to your findings as I've mostly used it with the bicycle water bottles or one that I've bought at 7-11 etc.

Sigh. Duty probably dictates that I also should get out there and do some thorough can testing. I wonder how many crushed empties you could fit underneath a 16oz Silver Bullet? :D I like the 24oz stack idea too. And what is a cigarette keg? Really the possibilities are endless!

Cheers,

Greg Little
greg@bottleport.com

Good work on this greg, come sailing season again I will pick one up... For those of us that might have a boat that is sometimes on the wet side, a rigid, watertight cylinder with a lid would be a better solution for general gear stowage (cel phone, wallet, etc) than the fat bags...
 

Merrily

Administrator
Good work on this greg, come sailing season again I will pick one up... For those of us that might have a boat that is sometimes on the wet side, a rigid, watertight cylinder with a lid would be a better solution for general gear stowage (cel phone, wallet, etc) than the fat bags...
The Bottleport doesn't have a lid, just an adjustable bungee at the top, but there's an idea for you, Greg.
 

Merrily

Administrator
Say, I've never capsized with the Bottleport in place. It must get some water in it. How bad is it?
 

pez

Member
Say, I've never capsized with the Bottleport in place. It must get some water in it. How bad is it?
So you're saying you've never went sailing with the bottleport? :D

Just getting back at you for the nice guy comment, LOL...
 

hdco1313

New Member
Re the question of how much extra water the Bottleport will carry, I actually ran some tests on that in response to the same question from Tillerman, and here is more information than you ever wanted to know:

"With the bottle inserted and the bungie holding it in and the Bottleport filled to the top with water from the faucet, it holds exactly 16oz of extra water. Practically speaking, when using it on a boat these controlled conditions wouldn't apply and water would slosh out the top with the motion of the boat. In a completely non-scientific way, but as accurately as I could, I tried to duplicate "medium-slosh" conditions by shaking the full Bottleport from side to side while still keeping it on a vertical axis. The water left inside weighed 13oz.

I designed the Bottleport with the water channels on each side so that water stuck in the bottom would be partially displaced and ejected by putting the container back in. When I did this just now, an additional 6oz was ejected, leaving 7oz in the Bottleport. When sailing, of course, each time you remove and replace the water bottle you will get back down to this approx. 7oz extra weight.

To complete the stats, filling the Bottleport completely full to the brim with water WITHOUT a water bottle inserted results in extra weight of 2lbs, 9oz. or just under 1/3 of a gallon.

Based on the above, I would say that if weight is a primary consideration then the side mount option [ie., in the cockpit wall] might be best. For me, 13oz would be an acceptable penalty if there was a place that I really wanted to mount it that was vertical [ie., daggerboard trunk]."
 
Based on the above, I would say that if weight is a primary consideration then the side mount option [ie., in the cockpit wall] might be best. For me, 13oz would be an acceptable penalty if there was a place that I really wanted to mount it that was vertical [ie., daggerboard trunk]."
If you are mounting this in the sidewall, then I would be sure to use bolts with fenderwashers on the inside to attach the inspection port. You would be surprised how much torque/force a cantilevered water bottle will place on the fittings holding the inspection port in place, as the boat is bouncing across the waves. I expect that in a year of sailing you would push out the bottom fittings if they were just screws.
 

hdco1313

New Member
Mine's mounted with screws & 5200 and seems rock solid, but I'll keep an eye on it. It certainly can't hurt to use bolts and it would be easy to do since, of course, you have access from the hole you just cut in that spot. I wonder if instead of washers you could use a second port ring on the inside, upside down so that top is against the inside of the hull. That way, it's backed all the way around.
 

Merrily

Administrator
I wonder if instead of washers you could use a second port ring on the inside, upside down so that top is against the inside of the hull. That way, it's backed all the way around.
It's bigger than the hole, isn't it? How would you get it in there unless you did major surgery?
 

hdco1313

New Member
Somehow in visualizing what would otherwise be a good idea, I skipped the step of getting the ring inside the hull! Yes, short of cutting it (the ring, not the hull) in half, that is going to be...difficult.
 

hitime

New Member
You would only need to cut one side. That should be enought to get the backing plate inside the hull.
 

hdco1313

New Member
Yup, that sounds like the way to do it. I'm going to add this as suggestion to try in the "Port Installation Tips" section of the website. When it goes up in final form, that is. Thanks for the ideas everyone.
 
Why would you go through the trouble and expense of installing a 2nd inspection port ring on the inside instead of just using a washer? Are you intending to just use screws into the inside port ring?
 

hdco1313

New Member
Because I'm lousy with inspection ports. And it will be strong enough to hang by a hook from the hole as my "winter storage method."

Joking aside, I think it was just a conversation that progressed from your helpful washer suggestion above that is, no doubt, a good idea. If I used the port ring idea it would probably be with bolts and locknuts.
 

AlanD

Former ISAF Laser Measurer
Just giving a heads up for anyone doing regattas.

Following discussions between Jean-Luc and myself, I can advise you that the Bottleport is currently illegal with respect to the Laser Class rules.

There is however preliminary talk about amending the class rules to permit it, but those changes will probably not occur for another 12 months at the earliest.
 

hdco1313

New Member
Hi Alan,

Thanks for taking a look at the Bottleport and considering it under the ILCA rules. Are you available offline to discuss? Would be great to ask you some questions. I'm at greg@bottleport.com if you want to send me an email or other contact info.

Best regards,

Greg Little (inventor of Bottleport)
 

LooserLu

LooserLu
...Bottleport is currently illegal...

Just giving a heads up for anyone doing regattas.

Following discussions between Jean-Luc and myself, I can advise you that the Bottleport is currently illegal with respect to the Laser Class rules.

There is however preliminary talk about amending the class rules to permit it, but those changes will probably not occur for another 12 months at the earliest.
Alan D, with all respect to your person, why is it not permitted, please would you be so kind explain more exact. BTW: I am only one of the 194000, but I pay my fee to the ILCA and ISAF allways accurate, may I get a detailed answer here to this issue? I do not understand why you say so.

Does this special sort of inspection port cover makes the boat faster in any way?

To explain to other that read here and perhaps do not know: "Jean -Luc", here, I guess, you are talking of Mr. Jean Luc Michon of France, the actual ILCA Vice President/Europe Chairman/Chief Measurer... (He is the "bad guy"/ the "Darth Vader" that did try to punish drLaser, 4 years ago...)

For me, I do say friendly thanks for your hint, Alan D. You know, it's easy to carry the originally (permitted) inspection port cover with me to a major race and if you or this Mr. Michon makes a complaint about "Bottlesport" at the race measurement of my Laser... Then, I would friendy say:... yes, Sir,.... I'm so sorry about, Sir,.... I immediatley change it to the original i-port cover, Sir... have you any other complaints about my Laser, Sir?"

LooserLu
(registered Master sailor at the GER Laserdistict and registered member of the GER sailing club with the "DSV"-Number "NW 165")
 

Merrily

Administrator
Re: ...Bottleport is currently illegal...

LooserLu, Sir, you've got quite the "tone" in your post to Alan D. And Jean Luc Michon as bad guy/ Darth Vader? Please, no terminology making a personal attack. Also, if you want to discuss what happened with DrLaser, please start another thread.
 

LooserLu

LooserLu
Re: ...Bottleport is currently illegal...

LooserLu, Sir, you've got quite the "tone" in your post to Alan D. And Jean Luc Michon as Darth Vader? Please, not so graphic.
Okay, sorry, I make a vow for my correction (is that correct written?): Mr. Michon not is "Darth Vader" or a "bad guy".
LooserLu
 

Eric_R

Member
After reading the rule, to me it seems (at least to me) that there needs to be a port cover, which the bottleport doesn't have.

20. INSPECTION PORTS
Inspection ports not exceeding 153 mm internal diameter
may be installed on the deck or in the cockpit to provide
access to the hull cavity, provided that any inspection
port is fitted with watertight threaded covers (any bayonet
mounted parts are deemed to be not threaded). Storage
receptacles are permitted underneath hatch covers.
 

marginal

Member
I agree that the interpretation of the rules disallowing the bottle port sounds daft.

My interpretation for this rule is that it is based around safety, and the wording ensures that any inspection ports have a robust watertight cover.

This safety is then compromised (in the same rule) with the statement about allowing storage. Taking the port cover off on the water to access the storage opens a hole in the boat.

Bottleport seems to offer a way to store your water whilst maintaining the watertight integrity of the hull, which seems like a good idea.

Is it class legal to carry a waterbottle in a barney bag below a normal port cover, but not to use a bottle port?
That would be crazy.

I do not even have an inspection port, and do not intend to cut one, but I'm curious as to this interpretation of the rules.
 

49208

Tentmaker
After reading the rule, to me it seems (at least to me) that there needs to be a port cover, which the bottleport doesn't have.

20. INSPECTION PORTS
Inspection ports not exceeding 153 mm internal diameter
may be installed on the deck or in the cockpit to provide
access to the hull cavity, provided that any inspection
port is fitted with watertight threaded covers (any bayonet
mounted parts are deemed to be not threaded). Storage
receptacles are permitted underneath hatch covers.
The Bottleport IS the port/hatch cover, it is NOT the inspection port.

I'm guessing it's running afoul of the catch all "if it's not specifically allowed, then it's illegal".....

After sailing with one and spending a bit of time handling it, I think the Bottleport cover is more robust and less likely to crack/break then the standard port cover from wayward knees, fists etc.

Yes, IMHO, it's a silly interpretation, and it's also seems silly that it will take 12 months to amend the rules to allow it.
 

hdco1313

New Member
Thanks forumers for your support of the Bottleport.

I had a good email exchange with Alan yesterday and I'm focusing on the positive--that the immediate reaction of the measurers was not simply to ban it, end of story, but to move immediately to see if there could be a rule change to accommodate it. I think there are a few arguments to make as to why it could be allowed under the current rules but then there is the default-negative Prime Directive: if it's not specifically allowed, it's not allowed.

As I said in our exchange yesterday, I understand the constant pressure the measurers must be under to make changes to the rules and I appreciate that they seem to be moving to do so with the Bottleport. Since it clearly doesn't affect boat speed or safety, I hope that the process can move along more quickly.
 

Eric_R

Member
The Bottleport IS the port/hatch cover, it is NOT the inspection port.

I'm guessing it's running afoul of the catch all "if it's not specifically allowed, then it's illegal".....

After sailing with one and spending a bit of time handling it, I think the Bottleport cover is more robust and less likely to crack/break then the standard port cover from wayward knees, fists etc.

Yes, IMHO, it's a silly interpretation, and it's also seems silly that it will take 12 months to amend the rules to allow it.
I was interpreting it as you must have storage underneath the port cover.
 

AlanD

Former ISAF Laser Measurer
While I cannot speak directly on the behalf of Jean-Luc or the ILCA, I will reply to the above comments, but my reply only my thoughts and actions and not that of the ILCA or Jean-Luc.

I was made aware of the existence of the Bottleport about a week ago by another Laser sailor at my local club. One problem as measurers we face is someone turns up with something you have never seen before and you are forced to make a judgement call on whether it's legal. It's much easier for us, to refer it up the line. Even at major international regattas, the ISAF measurers will discus with each other, in detail items that are being presented. Sometimes, the other measurer will make us rethink our attitude to certain items. The class rules when you look at them in detail leave a lot of grey areas, you need to interpret the rules in the way the rule was intended to be used and not in the way somebody abstractly reads the rule. Further you just don’t immediately ban something because someone has legitimately down something differently to the norm.

As competitors, you don’t want one measurer saying something is illegal and another saying it’s legal, it just ends in arguments and usually the measurers don’t have the time and all you’ll do cause delays annoying the other 100 competitors waiting in line to be measured. We’d rather have things clearly spelt out in the rules, but unfortunately that is virtually impossible unless the rules get expanded to a multi volume encyclodepai, none of us want that or the sailing lawyers that would arrive on the scene. At a regatta if you want to discuss something with us, do it after we’ve finished for the day and bring a good bottle of wine with you. ;)

Anyway, on seeing the Bottleport images, I immediately contacted Jean-Luc to get an interpretation before a Bottleport was presented at a regatta where I was the measure. His response was that as the class rules were written, the Bottleport is illegal, however he thought that it was a really good idea and he contacted the Laser Class Technical Committee to initiate changing the class rules so it would be potentially legal in the future.

The Bottleport falls foul of essentially two rules in my opinion.

20. INSPECTION PORTS
Inspection ports not exceeding 153 mm internal diameter
may be installed on the deck or in the cockpit to provide
access to the hull cavity, provided that any inspection
port is fitted with watertight threaded covers (any bayonet
mounted parts are deemed to be not threaded). Storage
receptacles are permitted underneath hatch covers.

21. CLIPS AND STORAGE BAGS
Clips, ties or bags to stow or secure safety or other
equipment may be used on the deck, in the cockpit, or
around the mast.

The Bottleport is not a receptacle underneath the hatch cover, the hatch cover is a receptacle. Nor is the Bottleport a bag, it’s a rigid plastic device. Further the Bottleport changes the function of the inspection hatch and the inspection hatch cover. While the Bottleport is a brilliant idea, it’s not covered by the class rules and the Laser is a one design class with a fundamental rule that basically says that if the rules don’t specifically authorise something, then it is not permitted, further you are not permitted to change the function of something.

There have been a lot of ideas put forward in class, some good, some bad, but until the class votes and accepts a new idea, then the one design principle remains. The one design principle needs to be protected for the long term strength and survival of the class, irrespective of whether the item makes the boat faster.

Why will it take twelve months or more? This is because changes the class rules including changes to the wording of the rules is controlled by the members of the association. You get to vote on whether a rule is changed and this takes time. Then the amended new class rules are released annually. Do you really want the class rules changing on the run? Do you want to be turning up to a regatta one week to find the class rules changed a few days before, without you having a say in the matter, only to find that your boat is no longer legal?
 

AlanD

Former ISAF Laser Measurer
Re: ...Bottleport is currently illegal...

To explain to other that read here and perhaps do not know: "Jean -Luc", here, I guess, you are talking of Mr. Jean Luc Michon of France, the actual ILCA Vice President/Europe Chairman/Chief Measurer... (He is the "bad guy"/ the "Darth Vader" that did try to punish drLaser, 4 years ago...)
From my observation of the DrLaser website, some information on the website was good, but it also had large amounts of misinformation and misinterpretations of the class rules. For what it's worth and from my understanding DrLaser was not even a member of the association.

While your keen to have a go at class measurers, maybe one day you'll come and assist the regatta measurer, race committee, starter and other volunteers that make the regattas happen in a fair manner or the clubs and association run smothly, usually it's at the expense of our own sailing. It's easy to complain about the job others do, it's rare that the complainers would ever get off there butts and assist.
 

Bungo Pete

Member
I am holding in my hand one of the offending Bottleports, and after reading paragraph 20, specifically, "provided that any inspection port is fitted with watertight threaded covers" (sic) I have the following observations.

1. Is it threaded? Yes.
2. Is it watertight? Yes.

Therefore, with all due respect, it seems to me that this business of "if it's not specifically allowed, it's not allowed" is being taken a little too far. Note that Rule 20 does not specify what type of plastic is permissible to be used for the inspection ports. So, does that mean that a polypropylene cover is legal but a polystyrene one is not? There is a noticable difference. It also does not specify the shape of the cover. I have seen some with two finger indentations, and some with four. Therefore, which one is Legal? Also, if someone fastened a bottle holder to an existing port cover, does that change its purpose? What if they fastened it with duct tape? Screws? What if they fastened a power bar holder? Was there a rule change when someone came up with the little plastic disc which sits over the main sheet block spring to keep it in place? (Actually, if the answer is yes, please don't tell me.)

I can certainly see the value in maintaining the integrity of the one-design class, and appreciate the efforts of the ILCA in this regard. However, the Bottleport is in essence nothing more than a concave inspection port cover. This is a rare instance where the use of this device constitutes no change or enhancement to the operation or performance of the boat, yet brilliantly solves a common problem. I submit that spending a year debating such a non-issue and voting on same (while keeping people from benefiting from it) is completely unnecessary and to do so would be a waste of time and resources.
 
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