Both Intensity and Neil Pryde describe their sails inconsistently

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kebwi

Member
I realize there are some very old threads that discuss this, but I don't see a clear conclusion yet. IntensitySails describe their sails as racing sails of 75 sqft, while Neil Pryde describes their sails as rec sails of 84 sqft. Consequently, they are both inconsistent. To my understanding Sunfish sails are either 75 sqft rec sails or 84 sqft racing sails. They can't be 75 sqft racing sails (as Intensity describes them) or 84 sqft rec sails (as NP describes them). Both companies are committing the same (but perfectly opposite) error, leaving customers unclear as to what cut or draft the sails actually have.

Does anyone know, once and for all, if the Intensity and NP sails have the draft of rec sails or racing sails?

(I can't believe these errors have persisted on their websites for ten years, at least, based on the age of discussions about this confusion; they have apparently never updated their websites concerning this issue. I don't get it.)

Thanks.
 
One thing I know for sure is the dimensions Intensity lists are wrong

Luff: 13.25 feet
Leech: 13.25 feet
Foot: 14.25 feet

Since both booms are the same length the above is def wrong.

You may want to contact both sailmakers and firmly insist they correct their websites!!
 
Boy, I'm getting really confused now. Here's the response I received from Neil Pryde, which doesn't align with pretty much *everything* I've read to the contrary online, claiming there are two Sunfish sail designs, rec and racing, differing primarily in curvature and associated surface area:

All sunfish sails are around 83sqft, assuming they have the luff, leech and foot measures as described. I do not know where 75sqft comes from, but the true area mathematically is 83.

Recreational sails..this has nothing to do with the shape of the sail as far as I know, the sails we designed for Sunfish/Laser and built for many years is the standard sail. The one thing that would make a sail a racing vs. a recreational sail is the fabric. For a racing sail you would choose a more resinated sail...ie. firmer.

Our designation as 'recreational' sails is to say that they are not 'class legal' sails and as such cannot be used in Sunfish class sanctioned events.

Our sails have never been flat...as this won't work on sailboat..of any kind, so yes, they have luff curve, foot round, seam shaping and lots of 3 dimensional shape. The luff curve is around 6.5" before broadseaming.
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So basically, Neil Pryde is totally unaware that there are two popular Sunfish sail designs and that their primary distinction is their degree of curvature. NP seems to have no idea what I'm talking about when I describe such a sail ecosystem for the Sunfish. As a newcomer trying to make a purchasing decision, I find this all very distressing.
 
I can tell you that the Intensity sail is very nice. I have two and I can't complain about either. You won't go wrong with the Intensity sail.
 
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beldar boathead said:
One thing I know for sure is the dimensions Intensity lists are wrong

Luff: 13.25 feet
Leech: 13.25 feet
Foot: 14.25 feet

Since both booms are the same length the above is def wrong.

You may want to contact both sailmakers and firmly insist they correct their websites!!
Click to expand...
For comparison, my newish Neil Pride sail is "short" six inches equally on each spar. (Secured by "S" hook at the tack).

How does the Intensity sail measure-up along the spars?
 
L&VW said:
For comparison, my newish Neil Pride sail is "short" six inches equally on each spar. (Secured by "S" hook at the tack).

How does the Intensity sail measure-up along the spars?
Click to expand...

How perfectly should the luff and foot fit, given that they have to be pulled taught when sailing and loosened in the interim? Do the sails stretch to fill the boom when outhauled? I admit, I haven't found my ancient Sunfish sail to stretch much. In fact, the two outhaul lines for the booms are really too short for the rigging method advocated in the (equally ancient) manual: center the line at the clew, pull both ends through the eye at the end of the boom, then tie two figure eights; I really lack enough line to do that. I've wondered if a single stretch of line would be strong enough to hold the sail That would enable me to knot off at the clew (figure eight or bowline), pass a single piece through the eye on the boom, and knot off with considerably more line to work with.
 
danpal said:
I can tell you that the Intensity sail is very nice. I have two and I can't complain about either. You won't go wrong with the Intensity sail.
Click to expand...

Thank you. I admit, I think the white sail is really sterile. I'd actually like to get a white one, but only as a blank canvas to paint on -- which from what I've read is contentious but also successful in many cases.

Anyway, not too important, just a point of curiosity. Thanks for the advocacy for the Intensity sail.
 
Neil Pryde sails for the Sunfish used to have ugly and small windows. Do they still cross stich the window?
 
kebwi said:
I realize there are some very old threads that discuss this, but I don't see a clear conclusion yet. IntensitySails describe their sails as racing sails of 75 sqft, while Neil Pryde describes their sails as rec sails of 84 sqft. Consequently, they are both inconsistent. To my understanding Sunfish sails are either 75 sqft rec sails or 84 sqft racing sails. They can't be 75 sqft racing sails (as Intensity describes them) or 84 sqft rec sails (as NP describes them). Both companies are committing the same (but perfectly opposite) error, leaving customers unclear as to what cut or draft the sails actually have.

Does anyone know, once and for all, if the Intensity and NP sails have the draft of rec sails or racing sails?

(I can't believe these errors have persisted on their websites for ten years, at least, based on the age of discussions about this confusion; they have apparently never updated their websites concerning this issue. I don't get it.)

Thanks.
Click to expand...
See my previous post. Just do the math. I included a link to H
 
Please see my previous message regarding areas. And I can't believe you would say this without understanding how one calculates area. Here's the formula:
Area of a triangle given three sides - Heron's Formula with calculator - Math Open Reference. You can use this link in google...it will take you right there without a search for 'how to calculate the area of a triangle".
This forum has been miss-informing users for at least 10 years...:)
And this forumula is used if you don't have the luff perpendicular in this case so unable to to use: a=h*/2 or if you don't have sophisticated sailmaking software that does the work for you.
And by the way there is no such thing as the 'draft of racing sails or recreational' sails. Having a flatter or fuller sail has nothing to do with racing or recreational use...as an example sails used in heavy air get flatter typically, so you might build a racing sail flatter for use in San Francisco for the more typical heavy air you get in the summer and for the very same boat you would likely build it fuller for the summer light air sailing of Long Island Sound. Active one design classes have a variety of sails.: jibs for 505's, E-22, lightnings and on and on will have the very same size sail, but shaped differently...so you'll see good sailmakers offer a 'light' or 'light-medium' jib and also a 'heavy' jib.

In fact I would make the argument that a true 'recreational' sail would be quite full as it is much easier for a novice to keep a full sail 'in the groove'. Flat sails require much more skill in this regard.

As for the camber of the sails, buy one of each and a class racing sail and measure the camber...it's easy enough to do physically or by photographs.

Bob Pattison
Neil Pryde Sails
 
kebwi said:
Boy, I'm getting really confused now. Here's the response I received from Neil Pryde, which doesn't align with pretty much *everything* I've read to the contrary online, claiming there are two Sunfish sail designs, rec and racing, differing primarily in curvature and associated surface area:



So basically, Neil Pryde is totally unaware that there are two popular Sunfish sail designs and that their primary distinction is their degree of curvature. NP seems to have no idea what I'm talking about when I describe such a sail ecosystem for the Sunfish. As a newcomer trying to make a purchasing decision, I find this all very distressing.
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Please read my post. There are not TWO sunfish sails. Neil Pryde built thousands of them in the 70's and also for Laser/sunfish again in the 90's. The sizes, luff, leech and foot are fixed and unchanged since 1955 or whenever the boat plans first appeared.
See my notes on how to figure out the area. It's simple
bob
 
bobpattison said:
Please read my post. There are not TWO sunfish sails.
Click to expand...

Actually since 1990 or so there has been a 5 panel racing sail and a six and sometimes seven panel Rec sail offered by the various Sunfish mfrs over the years. The racing sails unquestionably have more draft than the rec sails. Up until now, the racing sails have all been North-made. Most but not all rec sails have also been North made. Pryde made the rec sails for a year or two in the 90s while at the same time North was providing the racing sails.

As of right now, LP has got some loft in Portugal making rec sails and is trying to get them to produce an acceptable racing sail.
 
bobpattison said:
We listened to the buyers and changed back to the soft, easily scratched vinyl.
np sails
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Welcome to the Forum, Bob!

:)

Question:
When more panels are used, does the additional "stretchy" zig-zag stitching become a factor into an increase in draft? :oops:
 
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L&VW said:
Welcome to the Forum, Bob!

:)

Question:
When more panels are used, does the additional "stretchy" zig-zag stitching become a factor into an increase in draft? :oops:
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The 3 step zig zag stitch...3 straight stitches per zig and zag is actually about 1.5 times stronger in shear than a conventional zig zag stitch. That is why it is the defacto stitch used by all sailmakers. So in the 70's you would have had 2 rows of zig zag on sunfish seams and now you have one of the 3 step.

So seams can 'open' up over time in high load areas...so in effect the two panels are being pulled apart at right angles to the seam...and as the strongest direction of the 3.8oz dacron everyone uses for the sunfish is on the fill (width) of the fabric, sail designs have put the fill parallel to the leech of the sail as this is the area that generally has the highest loads. So the sails are 'cross cut". Doing this puts all the seams under direct load. If you could get a seam to open up in that way it would be like 'letting it out' to use a apparel term and if you were to let out a seam at the leech of the sail, the leech would get more 'open' or flatter looking, as you are getting rid of the seam shaping that is in the leech section of the seam.
On a sunfish the loads aren't really high enough to move these seams with one row of 3 step. I'll guess that with a quite old sail, soft and stretchy that this could be a factor but by that time the whole sail is a bit blown and attributing the shape changes to seams opening up a bit would be hard to ascertain.

On our lighting sails as an example we make the seams wider in the leech and head with 2 rows of 3 step and then the seam tapers towards the luff and has only one row (lower loads). On really big sails that are woven cross cut you will commonly see 3 rows of 3 step and even 4 or 5....something built in 13.9oz for heavy air on a 65ft catamaran for example or perhaps a sail that is intended for charter use...building in extra level of strength and redundancy at the same time.

bob pattison
 
beldar boathead said:
Actually since 1990 or so there has been a 5 panel racing sail and a six and sometimes seven panel Rec sail offered by the various Sunfish mfrs over the years. The racing sails unquestionably have more draft than the rec sails. Up until now, the racing sails have all been North-made. Most but not all rec sails have also been North made. Pryde made the rec sails for a year or two in the 90s while at the same time North was providing the racing sails.

As of right now, LP has got some loft in Portugal making rec sails and is trying to get them to produce an acceptable racing sail.
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Right, but my point here is that the size of the sail is unchanged. I could build you a vertical cut sunfish with the seams parallel to the leech (think old timey gaff sail) that would be perfectly fine in terms of shape. Panel layout is normally dictated by the type of fabric you are using.
The popular 6 panel layout was introduced and designed by us in the early 90's for Sunfish/Laser as up until that point the 'class' legal sail was a 5 panel layout. This was because in the early days of sailmaking the looms produced the sailcloth in 36" widths and if you lay out the sunfish sail with fabric this wide you end up with 5 panels.
We were producing the 5 panel version and let them know they could save another 25% in costs on the sails if they allowed us to build a 6 panel sail using the now standard 54" wide goods. It took them only a few days to figure out how they could make this happen and get the manufacturing savings.
And that's when the 'class' legal sunfish sail from the factory became a 6 panel sail it is today. As far as I know they are probably still using that pattern we created for them...but it is possible they did their own take on the design. I haven't sailed with a sunfish sail that comes from the factory, so I don't really know how full or flat the new ones are.

Bob
 
bobpattison said:
And that's when the 'class' legal sunfish sail from the factory became a 6 panel sail it is today. As far as I know they are probably still using that pattern we created for them...but it is possible they did their own take on the design. I haven't sailed with a sunfish sail that comes from the factory, so I don't really know how full or flat the new ones are.

Bob
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Thank you for your prompt responses.
However, I am not clear that you are aware LP offers two class legal sail cuts. One is the racing sail we have been referring to, and one is the rec cut. The picture of the blue yellow white sail is the racing cut, as is the white sail in the same pic. It is 5 full size panels with a very, very small 6th panel at the head. This was introduced by North in 1990 and is the standard today. The pink and blue sail is the rec cut with more panels. The rec cut is absolutely flatter than the racing cut. This sounds like the version you say Pryde developed.

These are the two cuts offered by LP today. Both are class legal, but the racing cut is used by the racers.
4BCF3082-BB56-4D17-A7D2-CCF87E8B45FD.png
3EB9BAA6-22B1-4595-A4A4-14674FD307AF.jpeg
 
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Yes, this is has been the case as long as I can remember. The point I'm trying to make here is that if you have two sails with the same outside perimeter measures, they will be the same area excluding luff curve. And I think you can see from the two pictures that the recreational sail fits on the spars at the same size as the racing sails...so safe bet that they the same outside dimensions and close to the same area.
For example if we were to make our sail with 1.5" more luff curve (fuller) the area would increase by about .4sqt over the one with less luff curve. All sails (that have shape) have luff curve. Fuller sails have more, flatter sails have less.
My general feeling is that the big difference between racing and recreational is really more about the fabric. The 3.8oz everyone uses for the sails (with colors)is not as 'techy' as a firmer finished racing dacron, both in yarn type, weave and amount of resin in the fabric. Racing sails generally have a bias if 5 or less at 10lbs and the regular 3.8 is going to be softer than that. The racing sail of course could be and probably is fuller. And they cost more as the fabric is much more expensive that the standard 3.8oz.
Bob
 
I think we're all in agreement on how to calculate the area of a flat triangle. As the absolute newcomer here, my understanding was that the additional curvature was the entire point of the discussion, namely, the claim that racing sails have a deeper draft and therefore greater surface area. That was my understanding, and also the source of my ongoing confusion about the state of Sunfish sail options.

Thanks for the great discussion from all involved. I'm just reading along quietly, for the most part.
 
kebwi, based on the discussion I think we can conclude Pryde makes sails more like the official Sunfish rec sail, and Intensity’s are more like the official racing sail.
For recreational sailing, it doesn’t make much difference which type of sail you have. The racing sail doesn’t make you rocket across the lake faster. But if you are a racer, it is just a bit faster than a rec sail, and that difference is enough that over the course of a race it adds up.

If you want nice colors, I’d probably get an official sail from LP. If you want a racing sail and it doesn’t matter if it’s class legal, I’d get an intensity.
 
Thank you. I was mostly shopping for a sail with a window, as I find my current sail almost impossible to use in that respect. I just figured, so long as there are some affordable options with windows that also having the racing characteristics, why would I bother *not* getting such a sail, seeing as there is no substantial cost overhead associated with the racing sails. But then I got all confused about what was what and started asking questions.

Thanks!
 
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