Ban Coach / Nannie Boats?? Already Illegal?

Your statement represents an opinion. Please provide proof that they WON'T do it without proof of non-compliance, because they certainly CAN do it without any justification whatsoever.
LOL True, it's an opinion just like yours. Can you supply proof that every RC in the world is irrational and will ban or change rules simply because a guy rolled of the beach and asked them? No? So your opinion is your opinion, mine is mine. RC could also form a crime syndicate and etc etc etc...

The point is made. There are many other points to this issue that haven't been explored fully and should be. I'll leave those for someone else to discover before I end up clogging this thread up solely with my opinions.

and remember...don't get derailed! LOL
 
Can you supply proof that every RC in the world is irrational and will ban or change rules simply because a guy rolled of the beach and asked them? No? So your opinion is your opinion, mine is mine.
They don't need to change, circumvent, or break any rules to limit Mommy boats. I don't need to prove that every RC is "irrational," only that there is a compelling reason for limiting Mommy boats. So, let's get back to discussing whether Mommy boats are, as I have asserted, unnecessary, unfair, and unsportsmanlike; or whether they are not a problem, totally safe, and part of the game.
 
But they won't do it without proof of non-compliance or cheating or without reason. You can't change ILCA rules without same.
Links earlier in this thread showed steps that Hyers took to limit what Mommy Boats could do. They took those steps without any categoric proof of non-compliance or cheating. In fact there is no suggestion that any such (even) suspicion played any part in their decision.

Again, this issue of proof is just rubbish. Common sense can prevail.

Chainsaw, are you actually reading what others have posted or just disagreeing with the closest post to hand ?

Ian
 
Thread starter #107
If I go out tomorrow with an M.B. will I suddenly outsail Ben Ainslie? [/left]
NO!

First of all he already has a mommy boat of his own so you would only be catching up part way. A Mommie boat is a tool and like any tool, with repeated dedicated practice, the craftsman becomes better at using the tool.

Second:
Ben Ainslie could probably race 100 races against you without losing once.

Your example is incompetent.

Your debate score has just been lowered accordingly.

Next...
 
I'd love to disagree with you gov, but if I do I will be accused of having not read your post...but then if I hadn't read it, how could I be replying to you now? Oh dear, it's all just too difficult playing under heresay rules.

anyone wanting to think about this issue a little better can pop over to Sailing Anarchy where contributors are inclinded to think out some of the implications of the issue.

Best of luck with your "heresay" class, boys!
 
Thread starter #109
No, he is not necessarily corrupt. But as soon as he provides any service to his sailors during a regatta, he is providing outside assistance.



Irrelevant. He has provided outside information, and thus outside assistance, to you.



Assistance is provided between races. That assistance is provided to sailors unequally because the coaches are not impartial. We would like sailors to have equal access to assistance during a day on the water. One way to achieve this end is to limit the usage of coach boats.



Do we get to have an evening gown competition too?



None needed. There are no relevant facts that are disputed.
1. Mommy boats exist.
2. Mommy boats provide various assistance to sailors.
3. The assistance is provided on the water.
4. Outside assistance is not allowed.

quote]


JUst to show I also pick on guys who agree with me...

The above "has the tone" intended or not, of placing some or all of the blame for the assistance on the mommy boat.

The mommy boat and its passengers are not currently regulated by the RRS unless the assistance comes between the warning signal and when teh competitor crosses the finish line.

Sometimes, the NOR or the SIs will make rules related to Mommie Boats but when there are no special rules added...Mommie boats have only the the underlined restrictions mentioned above.

It is the competitor who takes the personal outside assistance. It is the competitor who must decide whether taking assistance unavailable to all those with which he is competing is unsportsmanlike, antisocial, or otherwise personally unacceptable behavior.

The current default rule has its benefits. As fellow entrants in a game, we can look at the fleet of mommie boats and discover who is using outside asistance and who is not. We can then decide whether to compete on a even sailing surface with the assisted or the self sufficient.

Usually, I choose to go self sufficient and beat as many assisted as I can. Beating an assisted while playing self sufficient is far more satisfying than beating self sufficient while being helped.


If your goal is to win!! You may need to pay diffferently than if your goal is to experience great competition.

Certainly for some, the only choice is virtually always the "self sufficient " game.
When anyone chooses the "assisted game" it is done with the full knowledge many of those in the game are not playing with equal opportunity.

Sportsmanship to some of us absolutely includes, "It is not whether you win or lose, It is how you play the game."

Therefore our capacity to "enjoy" victory is mitigated by anything we might believe to be "questionable sportsmanship."


Yappity yap yap yap.
 
Thread starter #110
since trapeze hooks have been found to kill a couple of people, should trapezing be banned?

sailchris, I want to to work on making smoking illegal, since it is also a killer, the public need to know this

Ross. You are still flunking debate.


Your trapeze comment would only be cogent to this discussion is we were discussing something like 470 racing
and
The competitors who had mommie boats were known to regularly remove the trapeze wires and harnesses for light air races but re- install those wires and pick up and wear the harnesses when the wind was building.

And.
Of course we are not discussing anything of the sort.

I quoted the second sentence because I want to remind you...

Fer crissakes kid!! Work on your grammar and use of the language or you will be either attending no college at all or attending a college ONLY because your parents bought your way in.

You current grammar level as published on this site is fifth grade. Please work on it!!!

I am certain you are way smarter than the impression you generate with your grammar!!!

I am serious.

And on your side!!!

ROSS FOR VP
 
Thread starter #112
Ross ,


Please, go spread your particular brand of humor and lack of common courtesy somewhere else.

M

I like to assume the people of the world are generally nice as opposed to generally neutral or generaly bad.

You do not know where he might go.

I really would rather Ross would stop than go bother good folks elsewhere.
 
Thread starter #113
LOL well if you say so...

The rest of your points are unproven heresay. Give me the transcripts of protest committee meetings. What goes on now is legal, because it is allowed to happen under the current rules. If you can't protest it you can't say it is illegal. If you knew how to protest it your suggestions would have factual base. Instead of taking the opportunity to investigate how you could protest it, you've decided to move on to regulation, citing that investigation of the actual nuts and bolts of your claim is "irrelevent". You've made a giant leap of process.

There have been all manner of implications in this thread ranging from opinion (completely allowable) to direct accusation and naming of names (slightly dodgy). But there is no proof of anything. It is not enough to say you think it isn't right. If you want to change the rules you need to prove it isn't right.

Chainsaw!! What the heck man?? Here is the last sentence from SailChris, "As I said before, the only thing that remains to be decided is whether outside assistance provided between races should be proscribed by one or more of the sailing instructions, class rules, or sailing rules."

You must have read the post before you responded as though you didn't bother to read it.

You flunk debate!!

The value of the help given in 100% of the instances is not a concern.

The fact is, "Sometimes outside asistance helps sailors."

Another fact is," Sometimes some of that helpful assistance is distributed to some but not all of the sailors."

Another fact is," If the committee distributes un-equal help to the sailors, there are rules specifically written which address the subject and more rules which address remedies."

Another fact is, "If a competitor who is racing receives help from a source other than those controlled by the race committee, and that help is received during a race, there are rules to address that situation"

Another fact is, " If the RC renders assistance to competitors and that assistance is not distributed equally to all the competitors, There are rules to address that situation."

Another fact is, "I started this thread because I would like the RRS, the organizers, and RC to have total control over the level of assistance which the competitors shall be allowed to receive. "

Another fact is, "There are no current rules in the RRS dealing with between race assistance by parties outside the control of the RC."

Another fact is: "I would like it to be simple for every competitor to decide whether it is legal to accept any particular offer of assistance."
 
Thread starter #114
But they won't do it without proof of non-compliance or cheating or without reason. You can't change ILCA rules without same.


You have used the term "non-compliance" in such a manner that I must believe you are either a genius or a damn fool.

Damn Fool: If you think there can be non-complaince with a non existent rule.

Genius: If you mean rules are generally created because the game being played in a manner which is out of compliance with the way we would like to see it played.


I believe the taking of personal assistance between races is out of compliance with the rules of fair sailing unless...That assistance is clearly and equally available to evdedry competitor.

Therefore: According to me, we are out of compliance right now and we need a rule to address that problem..

Thank you Mr Saw for helping me find new perspective.
 
Thread starter #116
So, let's get back to discussing whether Mommy boats are, part of the game.

Hammerin' on my side again...

Currently, I think you believe Mommy boats ARE part of the game.

(OK Dead certain)

Therefore, I agree with you.

This obvious part of the game needs to be defined and regulated so organizers can have the opportunity to easily organize the game exactly as those organizers intend.

My addition and not necessarily what Chris was attempting to communcate>>>
Many of us believe the pure sportsmanlike game of sailing includes accepting no assistance unless that assistance is clearly offered to all the competitors.

Usually this includes simple stuff.
a. We don't accept last minute tows to the course unless every straggler will be towed.
b. We don't ask questions at the RC boat because we don't want to put the nice guys on the spot...We worry>>>.What if somebody else doesn't know and the RC didn't tell that person?
c. We don't store extra equipment on RC boats because if everybody did that the RC would be busy distributing stuff instead of running races AND somebody might see us dropping or picking up stuff and protest.

Many of us believe, bringing along a personal support boat is a circumvention of the obvious rules of "everybody gets or nobody gets" outside assistance.


For history sake: When I was a junior sailor I had friends with powerboats. My friends often came out to "see about these sailboat races Fred blabbers on and on and on about."

Sometimes I did notice the frends and sometimes I even sailed over to visit between races.

But...Even though Thye regularly offered drinks and food and sunscreen or to tie up and jump on their boat for a few minutes..

Pram racer Fred KNEW that would be cheating.

In fact. It wasn't unitil 20 years later when I was at a big Laser regatta and saw on the water coach boats that I actually read the rules and found out it was legal.

Legal is not necessarily OK.
I started this thread to see if others agreed more with my point of view or the Status Quo. After reading the posts here and over on Sailing Anarchy, I know there are opinions but I don't have any better handle on what policy and rule is right or wrong for the game of sailing..
 

Merrily

Administrator
John and I had a good laugh this morning. Two years ago when I sailed at Masters MWE we brought along our Boston Whaler and he was my "coach" boat. He helped tow a bunch of Lasers out to the course. Other than that, he was a spectator boat there for my morale. I didn't get on the Whaler between races, 1. it wouldn't have occurred to me, 2. there was no time between races because I was dead last in every one. Since I was dead last in every race, I hope you don't begrudge me and other newbies their morale boat. What is really funny--there's no way in hell that he knew which side of the course was favored either.
 
Pram racer Fred KNEW that would be cheating.

In fact. It wasn't unitil 20 years later when I was at a big Laser regatta and saw on the water coach boats that I actually read the rules and found out it was legal.
Well, there we go. No wonder folks are arguing and getting nowhere. Some of y'all remember a time before coach and mommy boats became the norm. Others are used to them and they seem like no big deal.

I got into Lasering again hard-core 5 years ago after a 15-year absence. I never raced Lasers or anything else at a high level when I was young, so I am learning how things are now, which is probably why I accept coach and support boats, as long as they aren't directly interfering with me (ie bad wake, etc.) It would be hard to put the genie back in the bottle for open events, but perhaps Masters regattas would be more amenable to specific rules regulating support boats? Not that support boats are a huge problem in the masters fleet.

Didn't the old sailing rules say you had to retire from the race after a foul or hitting the mark or something, rather than do a 360/720 and keep going? That seems really severe to me because I am used to the current sailing rules. Paradigm shift.

Everybody has a different line they won't cross. I was becalmed along with the last third of the fleet at MWE last year just shy of the leeward mark, and against the current. I spent 30 minutes trying to sail 100 feet to that mark and gave up and took a DNF. The only people to make it around the mark and to the reach finish line pumped and rocked their way shamelessly. Me and a handful of other people tried to sail it out and pretty much gave up because the time limit was approaching quickly. Incidentally, almost of us who tried to sail it out were Masters sailors. We could've rocked our way around the mark too but it didn't seem right.

I'm babbling now. It was a long difficult day on the water.
 
The thing that annoys me most about coach boats is when they stuff up other people's races and then have the hide to abuse them. I often sail at multi-class regattas in a different class of boat to lasers. However, there are always lasers competing. At least one of these regattas is a fairly high-profile one so there are some highly competitive sailors there - complete with coach-boats.

During this regatta once we were getting ready for our start, and the lasers were due to start after us. We did all the usual stuff to kill time before the start, and then decided on our strategy. We decided due to wind and conditions etc to sail in a particular direction and then tack back just before the gun to cross in about the middle of the line. So we sailed off in this direction, and with a little while to go we tacked and realised that a coach-boat had come along and parked (in neutral) a few hundred metres back from the line, slap bang in the middle. We shouted at them to move as they were on our start etc but they abused us, saying that we needed to read the rules as it is the obligation of the sailors to avoid obstructions. We ended up having to tack to avoid them and then tack back again to cross the line. A number of other boats got stuffed up in the same instance and it majorly affected our race. When we spoke to the RC afterwards they said that there wasn't much they could do because the coach boats were allowed to be there.

I was so annoyed. Oh yeh, and since when is a powerboat that is in neutral an obstruction? It still had it's motor on and was not at anchor, and therefore as far as I'm concerned the power/sail rules still apply.

I think it's ridiculous that they are allowed on the course. Family of people who sail in our class took a spectator boat out during that regatta to get some photos, and they got abused by the coach-boats for, of all things, COACHING! lol. The coach-boat said it was against the rules for a competitor to accept advice during the race. I don't even know why he thought that - the spectator boat was off the course at all times, watching and taking pictures.

Not only that, but I happen to think that (although I'm sure people here will disagree but this is just my opinion) kids having coach-boats only serves to make them more arrogant and obnoxious and to have something of a disregard for the rules. That's my experience at least.
 
... and parked (in neutral) a few hundred metres back from the line, slap bang in the middle. We shouted at them to move as they were on our start etc but they abused us, saying that we needed to read the rules as it is the obligation of the sailors to avoid obstructions.
Technically they may have been correct - demands on detailed circumstances and how far they were wanting to "push it". Remembering that between yourselves and the coach boat the RRS do not apply - you have a different set of rules there.

I think it is a good example of why coach boats need to be regulated and excluded. I think they should be subject to rules that keep them well clear of the race area and, any, infringements they make are the responsibility of all the boats they are coaching. i.e. they get in the way, all their coachees do 720's (or get disqualified). Add in a few rules about "if the enter the race area they do so on the understanding and agreement that they are subject to the following rules ..." and that they undertake not to become obstructions thus their motor "breaks down" and they are in the way its a broken rule and 720s/disqualification for all the boats they are supporting, etc.

But then there is still the issue of the before race support facilities.

Ian
 
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