Are Intensity Sails Faster? Etc.

Thread starter #1
I have been going over this with my production guys. This is their response;
The fact that the Intensity sail is faster than a "race" sail in many conditions is an added bonus.

In which case I suggest that any club that has allowed Intensity sails for club racing dis-allow them now. To my mind a central principle of Laser sailing is that people compete on equal equipment terms. For clubs to start allowing people to go out a buy a faster sail is not part of Laser sailing.


The Intensity sail might be cheaper than a class legal sail but then all those people who have paid for class legal sails yet want to compete on equal terms will also have to go out and buy an Intensity sail as well. I think clubs have to recognise what a Laser is and that people who have already paid out for the expensive class sail should not need to pay out again to be on equal terms to others.


Ian
 
#2
Re: Shaping an Intensity sail

I am sure that no one wants to hear me say that the sails perform equally so I suggest you search the forums for independent observations.

This was the opinion of one of my production guys that does not sail lasers. His technical knowledge of the construction of a sail is top notch. His experience sailing them is not.

I would not have started making these If I felt that there was any inherent advantage or disadvantage (other than price)

To say that I regret his statement and disagree is an understatement.
 
#3
Re: Shaping an Intensity sail

I would not have started making these If I felt that there was any inherent advantage or disadvantage (other than price)To say that I regret his statement and disagree is an understatement.
THe BS meter is running pretty high now...first you run what is basically an add for your knock-off non class legal sails touting they are faster then classs sails but when someone calls you on it you whine that its a production guys statement (that you typed) and you regret it because you are altruistic and just want to help your fellow Laser sailors....total BS. By the way where exactly are these knockoff sails made again?
 

Merrily

Administrator
Staff member
#4
Re: Shaping an Intensity sail

Intensity,

When shooting yourself in the foot, I'm wondering if you use your good dinghy boots, or a practice shoe? ;)
 
#5
Re: Shaping an Intensity sail

There is absolutely no evidence (other than hearsay that we wouldn't believe if it were asserted in marketing materials anyway) that the current crop of practice sails is anything other than a copy of the class legal sail in a slightly heavier cloth.

Who cares whether it is faster or slower? It is only to be used for PRACTICE. The most important feature of a practice sail is not whether it is incrementally faster or slower than a class legal sail, but rather whether it accurately reproduces the effect of various sail control adjustments to allow for boat handling practice.
 
#6
Re: Shaping an Intensity sail

THe BS meter is running pretty high now...first you run what is basically an add for your knock-off non class legal sails touting they are faster then classs sails but when someone calls you on it you whine that its a production guys statement (that you typed) and you regret it because you are altruistic and just want to help your fellow Laser sailors....total BS. By the way where exactly are these knockoff sails made again?
Boathouse - you have just as much reason for bias as Intensity. You are after all motivated by the same thing - financial profit. As such I thought you would support the free market economy? Obviously "Big Brother Laser" has had a word in your ear?
 

Merrily

Administrator
Staff member
#7
Re: Shaping an Intensity sail

Sheesh, I decided to move my own thread because it's getting all class political.
 
#8
Re: Shaping an Intensity sail

I bought an Intensity Radial sail and am having trouble with it. In light to medium air, I can't get rid of the lump of cloth behind the luff that runs vertically on the entire height of the sail. I think this is a factor of the extra cloth weight and extra resin in the sail, making it stiffer, and I've seen it on a full sized Intensity sail, as well. Normally, one could adjust the outhaul to pull this "lump" out, but it doesn't work with this sail. The mast sleeve is also wider than on my legal sail and I don't know if this is a factor in the sloppiness of the sail. Can anyone who has an Intensity sail guide me? Is there a way to flatten this sail?

You are right. It is all BS to think that either sail has an advantage. The great Irony is that this thread was started as the above quote shows complaining about not being able to set up the sail. Now the complaint is that it is faster. Well there you have it. The truth is that it is level in performance but not price. It suits the purpose it was made for very well. A practice sail.

I shared the complexity of making the Radial with a firmer finished cloth. An engineer feels that in theory it should be faster in some conditions. That Sailors, including some very high level radial sailors have felt that it was level with the class sail and served the purpose of being a great practice sail also convinces me of this.

I have to believe that with the quantity of sails that we have sold and shipped worldwide in the last year and a half and continue to sell daily. That if they were a real difference it would have surfaced on these very pages.

That reality speaks for itself.
 
Thread starter #9
Re: Shaping an Intensity sail

You are right. It is all BS to think that either sail has an advantage.

May seem a daft question, but if this is the case, why do you claim that your sail is faster (than a class legal sail) under many conditions. It was you that claimed this. Nobody was even asking about the speed comparisons but you felt obliged to share this fact with us.

Is this updated/revised claim based on new tests carried out or is it changed just because it has identified a good reason why clubs should not allow Intensity sails to be used in club races.

Ian
 
#10
Re: Shaping an Intensity sail

May seem a daft question, but if this is the case, why do you claim that your sail is faster (than a class legal sail) under many conditions. It was you that claimed this. Nobody was even asking about the speed comparisons but you felt obliged to share this fact with us.

Is this updated/revised claim based on new tests carried out or is it changed just because it has identified a good reason why clubs should not allow Intensity sails to be used in club races.

Ian
Not a daft question. I sent the question to one of my engineers and a link to this thread. I received his answer. I read through it and simply missed his erroneous claim. I cut and pasted his answer. As you can see I prefaced it with my comment that this was the response of my production person. The claim has no actual basis in fact.

To also clarify;This is only regarding the construction of the radial sail NOT the full rig or 4.7.
 
#11
Re: Shaping an Intensity sail

Intensity,

Can you ask your engineer what it is that makes these sails faster - I assume he/she has a reason for stating this - and how it is that this statement applies only to the Radial and not the Full? As you mention, the speed is based on the firmer cloth. So is the Radial Sail cut from different cloth than the full? Anyway, you've pretty much lost my vote. I trust you sent your question to one of your trusted engineers, and now that you don't like what he/she said, his/her opinion is of no consequence. Sorry - things don't really work that way in my mind.

SailChris - as to the who cares if the sail is faster or slower - I do. I get out one day a week - I have other commitments that prevent me from getting out more - new kid, new house, full time job blah blah blah - some may know the drill. That one day for me is MY day - what may be practice for some is quite serious for others. This one day is the day I get to be a kid, to race, be competitive, to be equal and be the only one to blame for mistakes - and maybe sit around the parking lot with a beer telling lies about races not won etc...

Anyway, back to the grind.

M
 
#12
Re: Shaping an Intensity sail

SailChris - as to the who cares if the sail is faster or slower - I do. I get out one day a week - I have other commitments that prevent me from getting out more - new kid, new house, full time job blah blah blah - some may know the drill. That one day for me is MY day - what may be practice for some is quite serious for others. This one day is the day I get to be a kid, to race, be competitive, to be equal and be the only one to blame for mistakes - and maybe sit around the parking lot with a beer telling lies about races not won etc...
My comments were based on the hypothesis that the speed difference between a practice sail (by which I mean a non-class legal sail that is essentially a copy of a racing sail) is probably very slight, if it exists at all. I also suggest that the speed difference between a practice sail and a racing sail is less than the speed difference between a new racing sail and an old racing sail that might be used for practice.

So, even if the speed difference between a practice sail and a racing sail is enough to make a difference in a race, which it probably isn't, it won't affect your practicing. If you are practicing then the most important quality of your practice sail is whether it duplicates the effects of sail control settings to allow you to practice boat handling maneuvers without adjusting the practice sail differently than your class legal race sail.

Even if you are practicing with other boats, then you can all use your practice sails, or all use your racing sails. Regardless, unless you are doing some pretty advanced group practicing, the speed difference, if any, won't make any difference.

If you are racing, you use your class legal racing sail; the same class legal racing sail that everyone else is using, thereby avoiding any of the above concerns about relative speed.
 
#13
Re: Shaping an Intensity sail

SailChris,

I understand what you mean - I guess I see it a bit differently though. One person's practice is anothers olympics - and the introduction of practice sails, means that the guy who is racing will have to ask the one that is practicing to please use his racing sail.

My point is that no-one wants to be the jerk that says, 'scuse me, but this is my one night to be a champ, can you please use your racing sail' - that has a tendency to ruin the fun for all. Prior to the knockoff's, that was not a conversation that was necessary.

I see your point, but do you see mine? (I am not trying to be a wise a$$ - I am asking honestly if I am making sense.)

Anyway, seeing as you are in Foxborough, we may see each other on the water some day - I am in NH - please come to the NH Seacoast Open Laser Regatta - Dover, NH. Check the D7 site for more details.

Thanks
Matt
 
#14
Re: Shaping an Intensity sail

I see your point, but to me, racing is racing and practice is practice. If you are sailing against other people, you are racing. If you are sailing with other people, or alone, you are practicing.
 
#16
Re: Shaping an Intensity sail

LOL -

Mostly racing, but I don't think that there will be a measurer there so there may be some practice.

;-)

M
 
#17
Re: Shaping an Intensity sail

Intensity,

Can you ask your engineer what it is that makes these sails faster - I assume he/she has a reason for stating this - and how it is that this statement applies only to the Radial and not the Full? As you mention, the speed is based on the firmer cloth. So is the Radial Sail cut from different cloth than the full? Anyway, you've pretty much lost my vote. I trust you sent your question to one of your trusted engineers, and now that you don't like what he/she said, his/her opinion is of no consequence. Sorry - things don't really work that way in my mind.


M
We have been selling our sails for the past year and a half. Nearly 1000 sails are in use world wide. I have not heard even one report of our sails differing in actual performance to the class legal sails in the full rig, radial or 4.7. The theory of an engineer is far different than this record of actual use.

I am truly sorry to have "lost your vote" on this issue. Our record of manufacturing a quality product at a very affordable price that serves a real need speaks for itself.
 
Thread starter #18
Re: Shaping an Intensity sail

We have been selling our sails for the past year and a half. Nearly 1000 sails are in use world wide. I have not heard even one report of our sails differing in actual performance to the class legal sails in the full rig, radial or 4.7. The theory of an engineer is far different than this record of actual use.

I am truly sorry to have "lost your vote" on this issue. Our record of manufacturing a quality product at a very affordable price that serves a real need speaks for itself.
I think this relates to what Laser sailing is about. Fine, if somebody wants to produce knock-offs (and no laws are being broken) then that is their choice. However, those using these sails should respect the reasons many others got into racing Lasers (i.e. no compete on equal terms with the "same" gear). When a manufacturer of knock-off sails goes on a public forum and posts that his sails have a speed advantage it rightly should cause those sails to be banned by all clubs for any races.

If they are not faster then it is pretty disreputable for the manufacturer to claim on a public forum that they are (and then what other claims from the manufacturer come in the same category). If they are faster then club races should ban then from any races (at any level).

Ian
 
#19
Re: Shaping an Intensity sail

If they are not faster then it is pretty disreputable for the manufacturer to claim on a public forum that they are (and then what other claims from the manufacturer come in the same category). If they are faster then club races should ban then from any races (at any level).

Ian[/QUOTE]

For those not familiar with this thread. The manufacturer, Me, makes the claim as stated above that there is no difference in speed. My reputation speaks for itself for making a quality product that we stand behind. best to speak to someone actually using our product without an ax to grind against my company for an unbiased opinion.
 

Merrily

Administrator
Staff member
#20
Re: Shaping an Intensity sail

If they are not faster then it is pretty disreputable for the manufacturer to claim on a public forum that they are (and then what other claims from the manufacturer come in the same category). If they are faster then club races should ban then from any races (at any level).

Ian


All,
This was a thread created with a specific question. I'm going to hive off the practice sail/ racing sail arguments into its own thread, after I have some breakfast. Hmm...what's a good title for the new thread?
 
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