Another twist in the UK tale

torrid

Just sailing
#41
Hi all, Had an interesting conversation with a friend of mine last night. He has just purchased a new Laser in the UK. I asked where he bought it ...
If you go to the US section of the LP website, the boats are advertised as "Made in the UK". From what I've read on here, I don't think they have made Laser hulls at the old Vanguard facility in RI for a couple of years (though they do continue to make other boats like Sunfish).
 

jeffers

Active Member
Thread starter #42
If you go to the US section of the LP website, the boats are advertised as "Made in the UK". From what I've read on here, I don't think they have made Laser hulls at the old Vanguard facility in RI for a couple of years (though they do continue to make other boats like Sunfish).

That is how I understand it as well. The hulls are made by a separate company that is also owned by Rastegar.

What I would like to know if what kind of plaque this new boat had on it? Was it one of the 'new' plaques or one of the 'old' plaques.
 

torrid

Just sailing
#43
FWIW, the "Made in the UK" is irrelevent to current fiasco. LP owns the Laser trademark in both countries, and BK is due royalties in both countries. I figure they consolidated production in one location when the economy tanked.
 
#44
FWIW, the "Made in the UK" is irrelevent to current fiasco. LP owns the Laser trademark in both countries, and BK is due royalties in both countries. I figure they consolidated production in one location when the economy tanked.

From a common sense and business point of view, that makes sense - though if that's the case, (and as silly as it sounds) then Laser Performance Europe may be breaking it's builder agreement by building for a territory outside its licence... ...in spite of both Laser Performance companies having the same owner, they are licensed separately.... ...and the more I have read the builder agreements, the more I am forming an opinion that there may be significant improvements to the business model (over and above Kirby's right to appoint builders and the trademark holder's right to veto that appointment...) In the meantime, we're just spectators - the PFJ

In any case, my believe is that the correct place to start making changes moving forward is with the ISAF agreement. I believe that it needs to be done at the 'agreement level', not at the class rules level.

Update:

6/21/2013 44
ORDER REFERRING CASE to Magistrate Judge Donna F. Martinez for a ruling including [43] MOTION for Extension of Time until October 15, 2013 to Serve Defendant International Sailing Federation Limited. Signed by Judge Robert N. Chatigny on 6/21/13. Motion referred to Donna F. Martinez (Glynn, T.)

6/20/2013 43
MOTION for Extension of Time until October 15, 2013 to Serve Defendant International Sailing Federation Limited by Bruce Kirby, Inc., Bruce Kirby. (Attachments: # (1) Exhibit A, # (2) Exhibit B, # (3) Exhibit C, # (4) Affidavit of Celeste Ingalls)(Whitmyer, Wesley)

6/20/2013 42
ORDER REFERRING CASE to Magistrate Judge Donna F. Martinez for a ruling including [41] MOTION for Prejudgment Remedy Against ISAF and ILCA. Signed by Judge Robert N. Chatigny on 6/20/13. Motion referred to Donna F. Martinez. (Glynn, T.)

6/19/2013 41
MOTION for Prejudgment Remedy Against ISAF and ILCA by Bruce Kirby, Inc., Bruce Kirby. (Attachments: # (1) Memorandum in Support, # (2) Affidavit of Bruce Kirby, # (3) Notice to Defendants ISAF and ILCA, # (4) Text of Proposed Order, # (5) Certificate of Service)(Whitmyer, Wesley)

___

Note: The following is set for this Thursday (unless I've missed a postponement).

Motion for Prejudgment Remedy is set for 6/27/2013 at 11:00 AM before Judge Donna F. Martinez in her Chambers, Room 262, 450 Main St., Hartford, CT.
 

Merrily

Administrator
#45
This has to be impacting the reputation of the class and will undoubtedly cause others to selected other classes. I think the situation needs resolving and ironically the rule change the ILCA could not make gives them (with Kirby) the power to resolve the situation.

What rule change could they not make?
 
#47
From a common sense and business point of view, that makes sense
Not necessarily. There has to be a huge disparity in operating costs in order to justify shipping what are essentially 130 lb. irregularly shaped containers full of air across the Atlantic. Cargo density is everything in the shipping industry and doing this seems questionable. That being said, New England has, in the last 60 years become very unfriendly to manufacturers. I think it was probably a combination of reasons.
 
#48
He did confirm that the serial number did imply that it was a UK built hull as well. Look like Laser Performance is well and truly dead in all but name..... Paul
 
#49
Not necessarily. There has to be a huge disparity in operating costs in order to justify shipping what are essentially 130 lb. irregularly shaped containers full of air across the Atlantic. Cargo density is everything in the shipping industry and doing this seems questionable. That being said, New England has, in the last 60 years become very unfriendly to manufacturers. I think it was probably a combination of reasons.

The Rhode Island factory was humming when I was there 2 weeks ago. It looks like they are building lots of 420s. I also saw a good supply of Sunfish and Lasers.
 
#50
Good to hear that they have enough going on the keep some working stiff like us on the payroll. I am not surprised by the 420s. From what my daughter tells me, they are becoming the defacto standard high school and college sailing dighny.
 
#52
There are currently 2 dealers in the UK so some spares are available.
Just because there are "dealers" does not mean there are spares available. Does not mean there are not either.

Trouble is that when you need "spares" you tend to need specific spares. So a broken bailer means a dealer having a spare mainsheet block is not a lot of help. So a badly broken bailer with no replacements available means no sailing (as prevented me from sailing not that long ago - for far far too long as well). And I was finding that even where an online site was saying "In stock" it did not necessarily mean they had any "In Stock" to send you (but could get some in within a few days from a supplier until they found out the supplier had none "In Stock" either ...).

Ian
 
#53
Good to hear that they have enough going on the keep some working stiff like us on the payroll. I am not surprised by the 420s. From what my daughter tells me, they are becoming the defacto standard high school and college sailing dighny.
420's, Flying Juniors and Lasers were the standard in the States 25 years ago. Did something change?
 

AlanD

Former ISAF Laser Measurer
#54
Despite sailing collapsing as a sport in the Australian Universities for other reasons to do with all student associations and clubs funding, the best move we did here was introducing the Laser and dumping the 420 for the Taser. Off the shelf boats made life so much simpler for those running the clubs.
 

jeffers

Active Member
Thread starter #55
Just because there are "dealers" does not mean there are spares available. Does not mean there are not either.

Trouble is that when you need "spares" you tend to need specific spares. So a broken bailer means a dealer having a spare mainsheet block is not a lot of help. So a badly broken bailer with no replacements available means no sailing (as prevented me from sailing not that long ago - for far far too long as well). And I was finding that even where an online site was saying "In stock" it did not necessarily mean they had any "In Stock" to send you (but could get some in within a few days from a supplier until they found out the supplier had none "In Stock" either ...).

Ian
If you need a bailer Ian drop me a PM, I have a few kicking around and some servicing kits (my toolbox is always popular at the club for small things like this).
 
#56
If you need a bailer Ian drop me a PM, I have a few kicking around and some servicing kits (my toolbox is always popular at the club for small things like this).
Many thanks but I got one in the end (had to wait and wait and wait and eventually stock arrived - maybe somebody paid their bills so more orders were released by a manufacturer ...).

Ian
 

Wavedancer

Upside down?
Staff member
#57
420's, Flying Juniors and Lasers were the standard in the States 25 years ago. Did something change?
Nothing changed.
420's and FJ's are still the bread and butter of high-school and college sailing in the USA. And the 420's are 'Club 420's' which means they are sturdier/less sporty.
A few colleges use other boats: MIT (Firefly), Tufts (Lark). Maybe there are others, but the last two come to my old mind.
 

torrid

Just sailing
#58
For those not familiar with US collegiate sailing, it consists of multiple short races that emphasize starts and tactics. The Club 420s and FJs used have no trapeze or spinnaker.
 
#59
Despite sailing collapsing as a sport in the Australian Universities for other reasons to do with all student associations and clubs funding, the best move we did here was introducing the Laser and dumping the 420 for the Taser. Off the shelf boats made life so much simpler for those running the clubs.
Dumbest move was choosing the Pacer as the national high school team racing boat. Its a poor design and cheaply built. Taser's would be great but they are a bit pricy for high school. The club 420 keeps the price down and kites aren't useful in team racing, unless you want to use it as a sea anchor to block the windward mark.
 

AlanD

Former ISAF Laser Measurer
#60
Ok. the club 420 isn't out here, we used the International 420 for the multi-person women's class and a local class called a Lightweight Sharpie (men's class) based upon the original 12 metre Sharpies used at the 1956 Olympics and are similar size to the Flying Dutchman (chined boat, trapeze, spinnaker and 3 person). We found the spinnaker and trapeze were beyond the skill of most of the members joining the clubs in our era and hence the move towards something simpler, the added bonus was that all the parts were off the shelf one design.
 
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